Mini 626 - Crew vs. Pigs - GAME OVER!!

[Goatrevolt]

Night 2 I actually watched Darkdude to find the vig. I just claimed a track on forbiddan instead, because watching DD was kind of an anti-town way to use my role.

Eh...you should have tracked me Night 1. If I were Ennui's partner you would have known then and there.

And tracking me isn't really anti town because everyone was suspicious of my claim.

We already knew you were Ennui's partner. It was just vastly to our advantage to force down a Cubsfan mislynch instead.

[forbiddanlight]

We already knew you were Ennui's partner. It was just vastly to our advantage to force down a Cubsfan mislynch instead.

This is true. And I was too busy coasting to try to correct them. I should have stuck on DD.

[darkdude]

I think the idea behind the game was for the cops to arrest each other. Seems like the only way we really would have had a chance.

Yeah but all cops had one-shot NK immunities. When the game started I didn't want to target other cops until the end because I thought killing off town was more beneficial. However with Ennui dropping dead the cops with NK immunity was much more of a threat, and I tried to NK them, but obviously in vain.

Because we were stupid, namely myself, because I refused to trust scum who actually WAS trying to scrape a town win.

My plan in the end was to either let town win or salvage my own victory should the unlikely circumstances arise.

[darkdude]

We already knew you were Ennui's partner. It was just vastly to our advantage to force down a Cubsfan mislynch instead.

But why track me Night 2 then?

[forbiddanlight]

My plan in the end was to either let town win or salvage my own victory should the unlikely circumstances arise.

Well, I can see that given hindsight is 20/20. I'm still amazed you didn't realize that I was super confirmed given Cass, Fonz', and Goat's backing me up. We couldn't all be scum.

[Matin]

Matin was obv scum, im shocked you guys didnt lynch him with a DD vig last night, it would of left the last scum, Cass or Goat (Really, Fonz!?) with a F3 endgame.

Now the quote that everyone missed (me too)

~I couldn't say anything to keep me from going down, but my piece-of-crap scumbuddy who hopped on the wagon against me can go down too. And when you take him out-

shoot twice

.

I think you're one of the only people that missed that...

[cicero]

Thanks to everyone for playing. I hope you all enjoyed it. I know the setup was a bit weird. I consulted a lot of people in order to balance it and I think at the end of the day it was ok but I'd love to hear input and criticism (and compliments).

The genesis of the idea mechanic wise was to have 2 scum teams in a mini. I figured that it would be a refreshing change, and I figured it couldn't have been that much harder or different than a game with 3 scum and a serial killer.

But such a game is definitely considered hard to balance. In particular I was repeatedly told that the basic setup game of 8-2-2 was balanced against the scum and in favor of town - unless it was mountainous. The reason being that while 4 scum teams look daunting to the town, each scum team of two is facing down 10 enemies. And if one of them dies they are basically playing as a serial killer for the rest of the game.

I played with a lot of different mixes of roles. But I wasn't going to do it mountainous. At various times one scum team had a watcher and the other had the tracker. In addition early iterations only had half the scum with bulletproof vests. I got input on the setup from Adel, Mastermind of Sin, Spies5Samantha who some of you know, and finally Mister Stoofer, who suggested giving the 1xBPV to everyone. I wrestled also with whether to let the same scum watch/track and kill as well. Given that having the godfather die would mean also losing the second power role if I didn't let scum do both, I let them.

A lot was done to make the scum competitive while not prejudicing town.

So the final setup ended up being:

- A sane cop who faced off against two godfathers (therefore he could only find two guilties)
- A doctor
- a roleblocker who would block whatever he came in contact with. So he would stop a watch/track AND a kill if done by the same team. So I saw this as a second variant doctor
- A half strength vigilante who would need to pierce the bulletproof vest twice to kill scum, but who, yes would kill town with just one shot.

The two teams being identical was done at Spies5Samantha's suggestion because even giving one of them a watcher and the other a tracker unbalanced them because one could argue watching may be more powerful than tracking. It was my idea to let them watch or track. The idea was to give them a weak version of a role cop. They could know something was going on but not necessarily whether it was town or the other scum team.

Between the Bulletproof vests, the roleblocker, and the doctor I expected a lot of kills to be blocked. That happened sometimes but I must say scum killed vanilla townies with astonishing precision.

I worried about putting in four power roles because I thought it might lock things up for town as they claimed but I just felt the game worked better with four. I kept asking my reviewers if I should review one and which one, but it just plain felt right the way it was. Losing one felt unbalanced against the town.

So there you have it. Let me know any questions or comments.

[forbiddanlight]

But why track me Night 2 then?

Vig hunting. It was clear I was going to target you, though I was tempted to fuck around with that and hit someone else anyway.

[Goatrevolt]

We already knew you were Ennui's partner. It was just vastly to our advantage to force down a Cubsfan mislynch instead.

But why track me Night 2 then?

I didn't. I watched you to see who targeted you. Forbiddan was the only one who did, thus she was the vig.

Fonz was obviously the doc when he was arguing with Cass. He obviously was a power role who had targeted people consistent with a pro-town outlook. I had no idea what Cass was because I thought she was implying that Fonz was scum through use of her role. I expected her to claim Watcher/Tracker and I was going to counterclaim her.

[darkdude]

I was super confirmed given Cass, Fonz', and Goat's backing me up. We couldn't all be scum.

Oh, I really did doubt that though. Goat's confirmation, as I said, can't be trusted because he was scum tracker. Cass blocked you Night 1, but that doesn't mean anything if you were scum, because you wouldn't have had that vig kill anyways.

Cicero said that I would not be notified if my NK immunity was used up. If I were notified I would have believed you.

[forbiddanlight]

- A half strength vigilante who would need to pierce the bulletproof vest twice to kill scum, but who, yes would kill town with just one shot.

Personally, I feel this was useless. I might as well have been a townie. I mean, one could argue my shot becomes a GF proof investigation after I figure out all scum are one shot BPV'd, but by the time that was obvious it was way too late. I don't think you'd get as many guards as you'd think. 3 killing groups, all set up to one shot kill town, in my opinion, was too strong, and it was damn good that both my kills failed.

[cicero]

A couple of things I might have done differently (being a mod means lots of little tiny decisions and as a new mod I didn't always know the right one)

- Maybe I shouldn't have notified FBL that her vigging failed by PM. Just save it for the thread?
- Should I have deleted Ennui's role PM from the thread after I posted it?

[forbiddanlight]

Oh, I really did doubt that though. Goat's confirmation, as I said, can't be trusted because he was scum tracker. Cass blocked you Night 1, but that doesn't mean anything if you were scum, because you wouldn't have had that vig kill anyways.

Yeah, but it would imply there wouldn't have been a kill that night. But either way, the third one given the Fonz' rules, should have sold you.

[The Fonz]

I was super confirmed given Cass, Fonz', and Goat's backing me up. We couldn't all be scum.

Oh, I really did doubt that though. Goat's confirmation, as I said, can't be trusted because he was scum tracker. Cass blocked you Night 1, but that doesn't mean anything if you were scum, because you wouldn't have had that vig kill anyways.

True. But if Cass was telling the truth, then FL could not have arrested. And if i were telling the truth, there HAD to be a vig.

[cicero]

Also thanks so much for the scummies nomination!!

[darkdude]

I think there should have been more crosskillings though. The bulletproof vests sort of discouraged that.

[Goatrevolt]

forbiddan, your vig shot can also finish off scum that have been hit by cross-fire. It was weak, but not useless.

I feel the setup was fairly balanced, to be honest. I'd say it was like 33/33/33% chance of any group winning. Perhaps the town had a slight advantage in that roleblocker + doc are really powerful in a setup where it's easy to roleblock a scum kill or doc someone to clear them (of at least 1 scum group).

The scum was woefully awful at NKing power roles. The only one hit was raider, who was admittedly very weak with 2 godfathers. The Fonz was always in our top 3 of people to NK, but we just never did it until that last night. I wish we had killed him over Kison, but I honestly expected DD to shoot The Fonz.

[The Fonz]

Yeah. I think 1 BPV per scumteam was balanced.

Like i said, with BPV all round, the vig is actually negative value for town.

[raider8169]

Between the Bulletproof vests, the roleblocker, and the doctor I expected a lot of kills to be blocked. That happened sometimes but I must say scum killed vanilla townies with astonishing precision.

I would have liked to see more kills get blocked so the game lasted a little longer. So this set-up seems to be balanced only the cops just kept picking the right people. Lucky SOBs!

[forbiddanlight]

- Maybe I shouldn't have notified FBL that her vigging failed by PM. Just save it for the thread?

Maybe...I don't know for sure though. Confirming there was a vig would make things dicier for me. It was a risky claim for me to make D3 even though it was true, and that lent to my being confirmed. However, I think I would have preferred that, since it would give everyone a better idea what went on.

[darkdude]

Yeah, but it would imply there wouldn't have been a kill that night. But either way, the third one given the Fonz' rules, should have sold you.

No but you see, I thought Cass could only block the arrest if FL was chosen to make that arrest. It could have been Goat.

Or did I read wrong?

[The Fonz]

Yeah.

I mean, i protected cass twice, she was town, but never targetted.

[forbiddanlight]

Yeah. I think 1 BPV per scumteam was balanced.

Like i said, with BPV all round, the vig is actually negative value for town.

This. If there were two non BPV'd cops one for each team, my role suddenly becomes useful and the balance is pretty good.

[cicero]

Yeah. I think 1 BPV per scumteam was balanced.

Like i said, with BPV all round, the vig is actually negative value for town.

Stoofer disagreed on BPVs. Figured crosskills would have slanted it heavily in favor of town.

EDIT: He did agree with your assessment that the vig was a negative value for town. I PMed him back when he said that and said "and that's a good thing right? Because we were worried about it being slanted against scum. He never got back to me and I went with it.

What might have worked, and it simply didn't occur to me until it was too late, was to have the vigilante be full strength and have the crosskills only affect arrests. But that also worried me in terms of giving town too much power. This was the compromise. Lots of roles that could block things and lots that could wear down the armor. I (and all the reviewers) thought crosskills in this would have really tilted the balance in favor of town.

[darkdude]

I say only one BPV scum role per pair, and cut down one or two of the town power roles.