Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Jahudo]

Vote: Ectomancer

That cat has an incredible amount of happy, I think it's contagious

[Jahudo]

Cass, I just realized you've been in every single game I've finished on this site. That's madness.

Cass has been in every game I've played so far too, but that's not saying much since this is my second game.

I think there's some confusion regarding Matin. I don't think he's saying that it would be scummy of him to put the 2nd vote on someone. I think he's joking around saying it was scummy for someone else to vote for his choice.

I got that impression too, and found it funny even if he's implying that I stole his random vote choice.

Pope do you think matin was trying to make a serious statement on his first post or doing an almost OMGUS vote for the random stage. A second vote isn't too scary at this stage anyway, but bandwagons can start pretty quick with aggressive style players.

[Jahudo]

The thing is though, once we have the ball rolling, it does not make sense to dwell in the initial stages for too long and I think Jahudo is taking advantage of this phase that will not give us much additional clues to who is scum. It is time to move into real evidence of where people's tendencies and positions are to determine if they are pro-town or exhibiting scummy behaviour.

I don't mean to prolong the random vote stage because actions during this time do not necessarily give us insight into other player's tactics/intentions/aggressive or defensive nature/etc, and some people don't even like to have a random vote stage so you won't get a read from them.

My question was not a serious accusation against the Pope, but his initial post is something I want to remember if he starts to use loaded questions in real discussions.

Are you trying to avoid acting scummy so as not to draw attention to yourself?

I'm not saying that this is a loaded question and worth investigating, but since he created it I want to know what his train of thought is. The question implies that matin is holding a grudge against me for voting his target, that he was "caught" doing this and now had to defend himself of something. I don't believe this is the case, and furthermore I believe that matin's vote on me was just as random/OMGUS/silly and appropriate for the random vote stage.

I don't think Jahudo's questions would have led us to a lynch, but they certainly had potential to create anotehr 4 pages of discussion that woudl tell us less than anotehr page of proper investigation of a person's answer to relevant topics.

Do you mean that 4 pages of feeling around/lighter discussion would not give us much to work on for later in the day? Proper investigations need to be started by discussion anyway.

@nureins, my initial reaction to Ectomancer is that he has seen thing kind of thing in random voting stages before and by joking about it himself does not see any serious harm; that an accuser does not have much to go on and a defender hardly has to defend themselves.

unvote

[Jahudo]

I wasn't trying to say that at all. I know that it's hard to detect sarcasm when typed (sometimes) and that my posts weren't written by an idiot, just by someone who tends to quick scribble stuff down without thinking.

Even if we accept that you started out in the random vote stage being funny it was your own questions that led me and others to view that stage was ending, and that we should take each post more carefully and seriously. Sure you can still have fun with posts but a self-vote isn’t funny. It gives the impression that you are possibly bluffing, which doesn’t help town, or possibly can’t take criticism, which could mean you go defensive and overly cautious.

TPT is town, by the way.

I just want a clarification, but your defense against the Pope is that he is your partner?

It seems this random vote is exploding...I want to know your opinions in the 4 points I wrote before (feel free to say all of them are ridiculous, i almost think they are ) and in the following extra two

1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...
2. pope INSISTING on you so much
3. tpt voting back to Ythill in an OMGUS way
4. They playing to vote each other to DISTANCE in a semi-random phase...

1. I think his vote was serious, not random. He based the vote off a question from Pope’s #41 post, which does stick out if you don’t connect the Jack Nicholson joke after it. Pope’s question was loaded even though he did not FoS or vote matin.

2. Until he voted for Ythill it could be interpreted that Pope was focusing his random vote time too much on one person, creating something out of nothing.

I already know what you are. Your secret is safe with me.

3. Well the Pope says he knows and he wouldn’t be joking would he?[/sarcasm] Of course, if he did have information it wouldn’t be pro-town to keep it to himself, but I took this line with a grain of salt.

OMGUS: (What does this mean?)

4. I don’t see if this was answered but OMGUS is when you vote for someone simply because they voted for you. But nureins, how are they trying to ‘distance’ each other? This seems to bring in more attention.

5. Ectomancer thinks all is a joke but he doesnt understand that tpt might also be joking and casts on him a fourth vote, SUSPICIOUS?

6. I ask u this because you are the only not voting now, and u unvoted ectomancer, so i guess your answer to five is NO (mine is also no) but want to know how you perceive all this struggle...random voting is typically unvoted when u put ur vote on someone else , were u planning to do it ?

5. I thought it could be a bluff like ‘you really want to try and lynch someone this early and get a dead townie?’ or maybe he was over anxious in the random voting stage and now that serious votes are cast on him he isn’t handling the pressure well. Regardless of the reason, self-votes are bad news.

I hope the Pope settles down and unvotes himself or we’ll never be able to take him seriously.

6. It’s more my style to question first and get responses before voting. But,

FoS: Simenon

You defend the Pope but give no reasoning. You also vote for the person on Pope’s offensive but again do not provide the reasons for why he is wrong. You said Ythill “backed down” but didn’t change his vote? What Ythill said was that he’d “consider that response” which is something you have do or it will lead to tunnel vision.

[Jahudo]

The way you phrased that sounds like stating a fact rather than an opinion. It is strange to state something like that without explaining yourself.

I do it all the time. Since this is a normal game with day roles being highly unlikely, I feel there's little harm in phrasing that way. It has more of an impact.

Ok. I can see how that makes a bigger impression on the words you say if you are confident about them during more serious investigations, but if you had reason to doubt you’d explain that too though? At this point we’re more or less even anyway.

So the Pope has been mostly joking this whole time, thus he doesn’t need to be defending much of anything, thus Ythill who is making something serious out of Pope not being serious (which Ythill might/might not have identified as a joke at the time) has more need to back up and support his original claims and how the Pope & others have been posting lately.

I still have one of the same concerns as Ythill, though, and that is where the Pope was/is going with his posts. Their attitude, shortness, and disconnection with the general discussion now feel awkward as of post 86.

[Jahudo]

I just want a clarification, but your defense against the Pope is that he is your partner?

Seems to be probing a bit too much in a way that benefits scum there.

I misinterpreted Simenon’s writing style, that’s all. How I saw it was that “TPT is town” sounded like “I know TPT is town”. And how could you know for sure this early unless he was in your role pm?

@ Jahudo: What does you took this line with a grain of salt mean? Just a clarification question.

I mean that I am taking the Pope’s posts with a grain of salt because now each post has a hint of sarcasm in it. (post 52, 62 86) He even agrees with this accusation in post 72. It doesn’t mean I think he’s scum now, but it will be harder for me at least to analyze him.

The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

He finds the action significant to comment on but then he does not give his opinion but rather a broad sweepign statement. To me, that is withholding information.

I did not say those words. That was Goatrevolt in post 78.

FoS: habitang

Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

[Jahudo]

@habitang
If you misquoted me on accident then that’s okay. The quote in question about TPT’s self-vote was similar to something I said earlier, but I wasn’t sure whether you were more interested in my responses or my reaction to a spotlight. As far as mason-fishing I didn’t know it came out like that. I wasn’t even familiar with the term and strategy since I’ve only played newbie games so far.

But now I see what Simenon meant more clearly.

Post 119

Because I haven't commented on any of the reasons why people might suspect TPT. I've merely stated my feelings on the matter; I haven't actually responded to any of the accusations.

I think this says enough on the subject. At this early stage in the game there’s going to be a lot more gut feelings to go on and it won’t be until later that enough of someone has been revealed to make a lynch look acceptable.

I also agree somewhat with your feeling that TPT is an irrational townie. His vote and questions on Matin still seem like a reach but again it was early in the game and like you say gut feelings can be motivators for who you focus on and vote. From TPT’s perspective, and not as text, the jokes could fit better. Aside from these things it is too early to pressure TPT beyond the point where his only option is to defend what little he has said and continues to say. But when I see a self-vote the first thing that comes to mind is someone that doesn’t want to play anymore.

Post 120

Absouletly not. Choosing to argue something later, after consideration is not the same as choosing to not argue it at all. You seem too bright to have misread that accidentally, but I'll ask rather than assume. Did you?

And give a chance for TPT to say something on his own that’s not under the pressure of the first things he’s said since getting into this game; that way we learn more about him because since the self-vote he’s become quieter. Maybe we’ll see a different side of him and that could change or reinforce our opinions of him. I don’t think that’s wrong to want at all.

Post 114

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell Wink But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

If someone continues to be that way after a long period of time then I think more good and bad points about their character would be revealed and would probably be higher on most people’s suspicions anyway. Maybe they’re just bad at defending themselves or just too cautious in scum-hunting but together with other things make a more compelling case against them. So I only think TPT has gone one step in the wrong direction and when he stops voting himself maybe he’ll make a move elsewhere.

Post 93

And why would I want to cooperate with the town? Oh, right, you're all so sure that I'm a townie now, right? Night hasn't passed. I haven't been investigated, yet. No one really knows for sure. Even then, what if I end up being a Godfather; undetectable to a cop? Or what if I'm a milller, and wrongfully thought of as being scum?

Still, it’s posts like these that I think people have the most opposition towards.

[Jahudo]

Sorry Jahudo to seem to be directly on your case all the time, but your last post gives me the idea that you are supporting the convo in any direction, sorta like when you were questioning about random voting cept now the issue is more relevant and you aren't taking any stand on it. It's the most suspicious thing you've done so far. My first suspicion was to jolt some discussion, which I accepted your defence.

I initially turned my attention towards TPT because he voted for someone (Matin) jokingly or half-serious because Matin voted for me (random/joke) for voting Ectomancer (random/joke). It was his questions that could and can be interpreted as half-serious with or without his jokes in the same posts.

That conversation evolved when TPT started sounding more sarcastic, although I admit like he did that text can confuse intonation. TPT's self-vote also made me keep attention on him but now I've came around through Simenon's words to the possibility that TPT is frustrated town.

At this point in the conversation, TPT hasn't spoken since Wednesday which isn't bad in itself, but until I see an effort from him to scumhunt seriously and/or give opinions on cases other than himself I do not think we should just ignore him. That is my stand but I did not vote him to L-1 because he had already resigned to voting himself. There wasn't a threat for him to be quick-lynched without the hammer looking real bad, but there wasn't much hope another vote would prod him in such a way that he would convince others to unvote.

He didn't act like an obvious scum but his words and actions were not constructive, so I wait until he changes or refuses to change. That is also my opinion.
-------------------
@nureins - My FoS on Simenon was for two reasons but his recent posts have answered them for me and I think his defense has been solid.

1) I said Simenon "defended" TPT when he said "TPT is town". It depends on your definition of the word is is. I saw it as 'equals' but if he wants to use it as shorthand for 'feels' that's OK. He didn't press the issue either way in that post so other's opinions shouldn't be impacted by him.

2) His vote on Ythill did not meld with my own take on Ythill's words and actions. Ythill said he'd "consider" TPT's response in post 50 which I took to mean he'd think it over and post later, maybe let TPT post again and allow them to question each other. It wasn't backing down like Simenon said in post 73. Simenon also said that TPT's post 41 couldn't be taken seriously. That isn't the word I'd use to describe it either but I do think his Matin re-accusation/Jack Nicholson joke sounded like leading in a funny way but still leading.

[Jahudo]

Nurein has inferred Ectomancer as a voice of authority once too many times for me to trust his motivations.

I think you meant that he

implied

it.

Unvote, Vote: Ectomancer

Inferred and implied are synonyms. Is that your attempt at scumhunting? Did I get my hopes up for nothing?

Vote: The Pope's Tiara

[Jahudo]

Who knew one could learn proper English from the Internets? I googled infer vs imply and it looks like I was incorrect in specifically calling them synonyms.

So if someone gets the idea from your behavior that you are scum, then they are inferring you are scum, but if they let you know they think so, then they imply it. And you can infer from their implication that they think you are scum?

Or in other words, the sender implies and the receiver infers? And since you say real scum are more likely to infer then they also are taking that suggestion of scummyness out of someone’s behavior, inferring that this must be so; but a town is more likely to imply because they are trying to convince themselves that someone’s scum? Wait, I think I’m lost again.

What does this have to do with Ectomancer? He's calling nurein an inferer for implying that Ecto is town?

[Jahudo]

I can see that in andy's lack of posting. His last two posts were to say he'd be limited access and was going to catch up and answer, but gave no content related info at that time. Besides him, nhat is also less frequently posting than others with his last two posts to infer/imply/ask if TPT is a 12 year old (loved it) and then to say this game is going at a fast pace. And nhat might be right, it's been what 5 days since the start? But it would still be nice to hear what andy was going to catch up and comment.

[Jahudo]

Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...

I looked over nhat's posts again and although he's had one more post than andy, he's only responded to only TPT's words and hasn't said a word about any other player or investigation since his random vote.

It might not be lurking exactly, if lurkers want to give enough opinion on the general discussions to get by unblemished, but I don't see it as a good playstyle. Sure you're putting a good amount of pressure on one person and I think it's been a good investigation so far, but if you're not in the mindset of the rest of the game too you're going to fall behind once/if you decide to look elsewhere. Maybe I'm just not used to seeing that tactic.

[Jahudo]

If TpT is scum, TpT will be revealed as such. But if someone not in the spotlight is scum, then they will not so easily be revealed as such. I choose to shine my own torch into the surrounding area outside of teh spotlight.

I can accept that approach regardless if you find TPT more town, more scum, or neutral at the moment. Everyone’s suspicious until proven innocent since we start out as a probability.

@nureins: I’m a little confused with your current reasoning on Ythill. Are you saying that the discussion hasn’t developed enough for us to have more convidence in a vote than we had in the random voting stage? You seem to be trying to connect his refusal to vote on page 1 with his substance-based votes now. Besides the other points of these accusations, you seem to make a point of this as being contradictory.

Also I don’t understand the Goebels thing, and the points 1-5 (post 194) you just made look like they’re shaped to fit your argument about speedy scums jumping on a wagon. I don't see great differences in speed/decisiveness/confidence between Ythill and others here.

[Jahudo]

Otherwise I haven't really been reading your posts, too long, this is to your disadvantage because I will gladly be the hammer vote if you're the suspect, even without reading.

Habit, are you partially joking here or all serious? And are you saying this more for Day 1 investigations or are you against long posts in later days, especially lylo?

One part I agree with and struggle to change myself is separating different thoughts, like if part of a post is about one investigation and part is about another. So long posters could be more supportive of quick readers or those with limited access, etc.

So far I don't see a concern much with nureins word count as much as his points of accusation. I'm not sold on a vote yet.

[Jahudo]

I’m starting to miss TPT, being gone for over five days now. If he isn't scum he really needs to do something proactive. Any number of things could help me change my opinion of him.

But I want to talk about Ythill / Nureins attacks and counter-attacks (and I promise no quotes!)

Ythill’s post 216
- I agree that the nureins joke quiz of post 58 diminished his own arguments, which allowed him to easily let it fall aside if no-one bit. But the game hadn’t developed enough for strong opinions. The quiz had more of a purpose to initiate post-random vote conversation so it didn’t have to be that serious.
- Post 189 could be an escape hatch. Says he was “very open” to finding people to help in scum-hunting. This certainly followed his earlier posts that were more open to looking for town. He gives TPT benefit of the doubt, Matin and Ecto some town tells, and doesn’t go into serious suspicions until about post 105.

Nureins post 229
- I also didn’t see posts 14 and 20 as forcing Ythill to explain not random voting. It did force him to respond or look suspicious but the questions were not as serious as Ythill contributes them as.
- I believe that your posts in 38 and 39 were not meant to “implicate” those seven people as suspicious but further the investigation that they were contributing to anyway.

Nureins post 230
- For the most part I have passed over the whole Nureins buddying to Ecto debate and if you’re all tired of it then skip this question. But is anyone willing to make a theorized conclusion? Nureins is a new player and Ecto has been around a while longer so there was there some IC trust or was it purely circumstantial to the joke vote continuation going on?

Ythill’s post 239
- I did find it a bit odd that Nureins answered your town and null reads of him, but he answers himself well in the next post. I also see it as an extension of his posting tendencies to leave no rock unturned. But in the context of this game, long posts may be overlooked and some points will not have the same strong effect when placed with dribble. You seem to be guilty of this and might be trying to disguise your weak points and tells in them thinking people may ignore it. But if you can summarize reasonably when asked, and I’m not saying you can’t, then that’s another thing.

Nureins post 240
- If you think Ythill is tunnel visioning you incredibly in some of your posts it is because you two are “debating” each other as you also say in this post. You’re defense provides counter-arguments of Goebbels that can also be argued as confirmation bias of his constant lying and misguiding. To me, I don’t see either as being overtly tunnel-visioned, but then again I have a tolerance for lengthy posts and can see the benefit of you two being thoroughly analyzed. If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry.

Ythill’s post 252
- I like your reasoning of nureins claim of making a “partially random” vote. It’s a cautious play to avoid guilt if people disagree and partially random sounds a lot like a weak-reasoned vote early in the game that nureins attacked Ythill for doing in the first place.
- I also tend to believe in your analysis in response to nureins post #105-107. What I see is two different play styles between you two: Ythill puts himself out there by “jumping votes” as nureins says of Ythill; but nureins spreads subtle suspicions that lends him to “spring on whichever side of that debate the town leans towards” as Ythill says of nureins. Neither strategy is an sure tell and this early in the game I see either as legitimate by themselves, but I see Ythill as a stronger town here.

There were plenty more arguments between them, including the Goebbels claims but I can’t decide if it’s exaggerating and misinterpreting on Ythill’s part or false dilemma paired with confirmation bias on nureins part. Maybe a bit of both, but I don’t think Ythill is making big lies as foundation for his investigation, but that is what nureins seems to be using as a primary defense. After reading both sides, I favor Ythill’s position in this argument slightly more than nureins but I don’t get an overly town feeling from Ythill.

[Jahudo]

Night Kill x 1 by scum. NK x 1 by vigilante and we still have a ratio of 8:2 at best or 6:4 at worst.

What do you know about this setup? I'm not accusing as much as asking for clarification because you make it sound like 8:2 is our best scenario of any role distribution.

Also I say a no-lynch day causes us to learn far less than say investigating multiple people and deciding on a lynch. With a lynch we have supporters and dissenters and their alignment adds to the conversation in the next day.

[Jahudo]

Hm, getting replaced wasn't exactly pro-active on TPT's part but now I can see his recent absence as more flaking than lurking as Cass said. Tritch, it doesn't matter how small of a lead led to a focus on TPT. His serious contributions were undercut by jokes that allowed him to disown his own actions, and his supposed secret "spreadsheet" agenda allowed him to disown his entire play style and personality. But I don't think his play style stuck to the slot that you now have so to me it's more a null tell now.

I would be interested to hear your theories on nhat, Cass, and myself as an outside observer. It's not enough for you to say TPT was town because you know your role is town.

Personally I think any scum might've wanted to leave the TPT wagon long ago because it never looked like gaining momentum enough for a lynch, which is what the scum are looking for. The pro-town wouldn't have momentum as their top priority as long as they gain information to help them decide who's who, right?

unvote

[Jahudo]

Well so much for pressuring Matin. I agree with nureins and others that he didn't have those active, opinionated posts until his last one; there was either a bad quote to analysis ratio or he only posted 1-2 sentences.

@habitang: Can you elaborate on your instinct towards me? What do you mean by "I'm constantly there"? Also, how does being "constantly there" differ from those you're saying are higher on your suspect list?

I'm rethinking one of our earlier arguments on how you thought I was too exclusive in my investigations: questioning TPT more than others. I could argue you have also been prioritizing my case more than others, and that's not just because I'm me. In reality, though, I prefer to argue that both of us have questioned multiple people throughout this day and the reason we have prioritized a certain person is somewhat based on instinct or that gut feeling. Would you agree?

Also if I were to rate a suspect list of my own and omit our two replacements as null tells you would still be in the middle with slightly town inclinations.

[Jahudo]

I was hoping for something a little more in depth out of Tritch when he subbed in. He seemed to want to investigate nhat and Cass although he didn't elaborate beyond OMGUS. I figure if TPT was as scum as he acted then maybe we can eventually find Tritch scummy of independent reasons. But if Tritch doesn't post, then what?

Maybe nureins is right about being passive Tritch and not pressuring him to contribute right off the bat.

[Jahudo]

Yes I feel the heat of beign suspected by a lot of people. I can only ask that I be given benefit of the doubt, like really really give me benefit of the doubt.

What heat were you referring to? Besides not having any votes on back then, you do know how many votes it will take today to lynch? With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch unless I'm mistaken.

And once someone is at L-2 and L-1 every rational townie will discuss thoroughly because a fast hammer is scummy. You have no reason to act this way, but I'd like an explanation.

Also what benefit of the doubt? That you don't think before you type because you've said its stupidity? That you're inexperienced? That you're not experienced with your role?

Honestly, can I redo with a clean slate? I wish I never posted anything now.

Now it's much better to get everything out in the open and try to fix yourself up. Be honest and clearly outline your opinions of me and the rest. Maybe outline like nureins and Ythill did if you think I've been overlooked. I have nothing to hide, do you?

Not only am I going on a rave, I think that if I just let everything go, then maybe you will see me better.

This post certainly changed my position of you, yes.

Vote: habitang

[Jahudo]

Habit: your previous post made me think more about how Cass and others see you as erratic. More than anything I wanted to see you confirm or disprove this posting trait because it will help identify you as perhaps an erratic townie, attempting that fake emotional explosion, or maybe its something else at the heart of your previous post. That's really what I'm trying to see.

I did not think habit's previous post was rational and I considered that fact that it wasn't genuine because then and now you are not on the threshold of being lynched, so why act like you are? But not that you are on the threshold of being on the threshold, maybe the next actions you take will tell us more about you.

And did tritch just flake? That's disappionting.

[Jahudo]

I’ll try to answer Goat and Ythill’s main points in turn because there’s a lot there. In short, I did not see the harm in the aspect of my playstyle that you call “coaching”. I am not 100% sure of TPT or habit’s role since this is day one. My coaching has been labeled as “insincerity” but I believe I am just indecisive paired with actively pursuing a better read.

I don’t think I’m contradicting my suspicions by giving room for them to defend themselves. It’s just that I want to understand their posts = better and hear how they respond. I mentioned that I am inexperienced in this game, just my second game here, so if this playstyle is any bit awkward then I guess it’s because I’m still finding its disadvantages and advantages to this investigation style.

In the case of TPT, he wasn’t responding like everyone else so if I was coaching him it was to make a better read on him. Also, I did not place my vote on habit because I wanted to lynch him and I stated my belief that L-3 gave him room to speak his mind. Maybe you could have gotten enough information out of him without my vote, but since he has suspected me as early as his second post in this game I thought it best that habit and I take the opportunity to get better reads. Consequently, I started to read him as town before his erratic post. That post looked like lapse in his posting but several people including himself have helped explain it. His posts since my vote make me see him more townish.

Re: Goatrevolt post 351 and Ythill post 361

-I’ve given my take on the coaching and lack of conviction you think I have. I don’t deny I’ve been doing something, but I would say I am sincere in getting reads through investigations and not hoping around my suspicions to see what will stick for a lynch.

-You said I never voted for TPT while I thought he was scum. I did vote for him after the initial investigation when you said I coached him. I was coaxing him into saying something game-related and relevant. Look back at his post content and say that you can’t make a case he was actively lurking. I didn’t outright say he was scum or Simenon was scum because it was early day one. My question to them was a misinterpretation of Simenon and has already been explained.

-I explained why I wanted to confirm my current read on habitang and why his erratic post required more explanation from me. I could have ignored him and you guys probably would have gotten to the bottom of his posts, and I got the same read, but I felt like saying something in case he got quiet after his defensive post.

I very much dislike the way Jah is attacking a player who is apparently unskilled while complimenting some of us who have argued strongly. There was no linguistuc reason to name examples. It sounds like positioning to me.

-I should have said something like “If you still have suspicions of me then maybe I can answer them in response to a PbPA”. I was unfamiliar with the abbv. and couldn’t think of how to word it without using you as an example. I don’t mean to say you are town or scum for using it yourself.

-TPT and habit have been my two main targets so far and someone said they were easy to go after but I see that as something both scum and town could see. Even if it’s out in the open doesn’t mean it will take care of itself. One of my weaknesses in this game is how I view inactive players. I don’t know if it’s best to pressure more or let it work itself out and what to think in the meantime. When TPT stopped talking and Tritch flaked too it’s been hard to ignore them.

I’m unvoting now and giving my progression of reads on habitang.

-Post 288 I started to see him more townish while still wanting to keep an open mind and not fall into a narrow viewpoint. I was satisfied to move on to someone else then.

-Post 311 no one at that point looked very suspicious to me or active enough to find enough discussion points to investigation (Tritch, nhat, andy). I read his erratic change in posting strange and wanted to find out what it meant. I also saw that I could confirm or disprove my current read this way. So not so much new information as comparing his new post with his older posts and play style.

-Post 347 I wanted a little more talk from habit before deciding if this vote was helpful to me or not. Now I’m back to seeing him as more town and can consider looking elsewhere for a better read.

unvote

[Jahudo]

EBWOP: Ignore the = sign in paragraph two

[Jahudo]

1) Your question about my coaching
As I said I am pretty new here so I'm willing to adapt my strategy when there are faults in it. Goat, you make a good point that my ability to think of someone as "innocent until proven guilty" allows a scum to find an easy way out after slipping up. If it's on a larger issue that we could catch scum on I think I will be more objective and reserved. So far it seems that several people, including myself, have been willing to defend others to an extent but I don't think we have put our views in stone. Not on day one.

Also I didn't try to coach under the assumption I knew more about this game and could help. With TPT I wanted to see more of him than 1-2 lines per post, without which I thought the town couldn't accurately judge him. The vote was an incentive and perhaps a waste because I got confused in that infer and imply debate which I blame myself for taking us off course momentarily.

With habitang, by post 311 when I voted him there was part of me that wanted to keep believing he was town but the other part that saw his erratic defensive post and I didn't know how to explain it with my previous theory on habitang.

I guess I can't really defend that I wouldn't have acted a certain way with a habit lynch at this stage if it had went through. However, I did say he wasn't in danger of lynching even with me on and I expressed my feelings that a town should be very careful at L-2 and L-1 situations.

2) Your question when I partnered Simenon and TPT
After a few posts some people voiced suspicions of TPT but Simenon said in post 69 "TPT is town, by the way" in those exact words and nothing more. Initially I asked for an expanded explanation and voiced the theory that he was roleclaiming. I admit I didn't consider why someone would role claim so early and I got accused of mason fishing which I was unfamiliar with. When Simenon said "TPT is town" my reaction was "TPT = town" like it was a stated fact. I lated admitted that Simenon was within reason to voice an opinion using the word "is".

[Jahudo]

I think this addresses your other points, Ythill. Next I'll compile all my suspicions and opinions along the way with habitang because I think some people see the sudden change of voting confidence without the buildup.

Also what benefit of the doubt? That you don't think before you type because you've said its stupidity? That you're inexperienced? That you're not experienced with your role?

This picks up the unreasonable argument Andy already questioned and runs with it: whether a player is new to the game or to the role. The hole in the argument is that a player with experience as town will play better as scum.

The quote also contains unecesarry ad hom aimed at a player who was already against the ropes a few votes ago. Intended to draw further emotional outbursts? Maybe.

I don’t catch how Andy’s suspicions addressed habit’s appeal to inexperience. Andy had three points 1) fake defense against nothing in particular, 2) defense based on feelings, 3) OMGUS attitude.

What I meant towards habit was: what doubt should we have that your post is from a frustrated townie or scum, that we should draw a conclusion from it and, if not, what are we overlooking?

------------------

Not only am I going on a rave, I think that if I just let everything go, then maybe you will see me better.

This post certainly changed my position of you, yes.

Vote: habitang

This statement is very empty. Its tone says that Jah caught on to some really convincing evidence, but the case he gives amounts to very little and all of it full of holes. Jah has shown himself to be intelligent and perceptive. Why would such minor evidence change his mind so strongly?

I did not present my individual points throughout this game towards habit but I was committed to find out more in this case and not ignore a chance to get a better read on habit. When I said my position changed it was the erratic, frustrated behavior that I did not see up until then. I saw it as uncharacteristic. We saw how he defended against very little pressure and could expand our view by adding more pressure and get an explanation.

Ythill also mentioned my weak arguments and shift in opinion before 311 and after. I will compile a post by post walkthrough of my suspicions and feelings towards habitang to make this more straightforward. In truth, some of the reads on habit are from his posting of me and it has been difficult not to have a OMGUS type attitude when this is the case, and I don’t think most of our accusations of one another have had that effect.

--------------------

I still need more in terms of why you voted TPT so late,

It wasn’t late because I was not jumping on his vote using the reasons others used to initially vote for him. (that is, his interaction with Matin and the joke response to a joke response to a joke vote, etc). My case against him was different because I saw him as continually avoiding serious thought on the group and consideration to scum-hunting. Whenever he voted or expressed opinion, he cancelled it out with a joke. I felt that scum could have done this to stay active and look active but not pursuing a serious disagreement with town.

-----------------------

If you were unfamiliar with masons, then why did you specifically use the term "partner." My thought was that you were implying that they were scum buddies together. That's how I initially read that as, and how it looked to me based in context with the rest of your post, especially the part where you FoS Simenon. Your FoS on Simenon implies that you find him scummy. Your statement that you believe them to be partners implies that they are of the same alignment, thus I think it's a fairly safe assumption that you were accusing them of both being scum buddies. Is this correct?

I used "partner" because I thought he was suggesting they shared role pm’s: the only way to be 100% at this point. Even when I wrote it the statement seemed funny because no one would claim scum and the only other partnered role in this setup might be mason I guess? In hindsight it was an overreaction to writing I had not seen in this game before and didn’t know what to make of. The newbie game taught me to be clear and truthful, so I regarded this as keeping from us a substance-based opinion.

[Jahudo]

Re: nureins post 383

@jahudo: do you consider habitang a weak player ?

I don’t think so. It might be more appropriate to say he’s more inexperienced than some others here and is still learning aspects of the game, but so am I.

do you consider him a person that, in a position of a townie, could say stupid things and defend poorly ? If so, do you consider your fourth vote a bit dangerous (in other words, HOW SURE are you about him) ?

His post 306 came very suddenly and had the look of a defeated player but his posts before that did not build up to this act.

Votes at that point could have caused him to give up hope, caused him to self-vote and claim, etc. My vote also could have spurred reaction from him directed at me or others, or for him to calm down or do a number of things.

I wasn’t sure I knew what he was by reading post 306 but I also was confidant he wasn’t in danger like he said he was. My experience is in one 9 person setup so when I see a 7 to lynch it feels like more pressure is necessary to get more genuine responses than a 5 to lynch requires.

----------------
Ythill: I see now how the argument of experienced play but first time scum applies. By looking at his previous games this is habit’s fourth and has been town three times already so should better know how to think pro-town even if he isn’t now.

But if he knows how to behave then how can you explain post 306? 306 wasn’t crafted very well like Simenon originally said and should be a clear sign of scum attempting a townie emotional appeal if it’s fake like Ecto just said.

More referring to his previous game, habit was lynched day 1 and self-voted before being killed. He ended up town that time so you can argue that it was frustration / a feeling that pressure from others wouldn’t lift no matter what you say, how many times you say it, etc.

But do we believe that he hasn’t learned to avoid what put that last nail in his coffin last time around? Maybe it’s something that can’t easily be helped?

[Jahudo]

I know this is long but bear with it.

If it seems like I'm playing both sides and giving in to you by dropping suspicion it's that for all the bad stuff habit did below, he just feels like an impatient person to me. Semi-experienced if that means he hasn't played enough long games to know that patience is a virtue. But my opinions are not enough because we've been too focused on one another so what does everyone else think of this:

Habit PbPA

1 – FoS me for trying to take the “TPT discussion” topic to the next level. (I was asking questions not throwing out my vote and persuading others to do the same.)

2 – Says I’m taking advantage of this early phase that doesn’t have clues to who is scum, but also says my discussion could lead to 4 more pages of discussion that is worth less than a page of proper investigation. (First I’m not the only one that can ask questions so it is unlikely only one person can dominate 4 pages, and with discussion out of the random vote stage comes a more solid investigation.)

3 – Admits that joke voting starts worthwhile discussion.

4 – Says I’ve been probing for answers, withholding information. (I had that misunderstanding over Simenon’s word choice.)

6 – says I’m using too-townie tactic. Enforces his FoS on me (he actually mis-read someone else’s post as mine.)

7 – Admits he’s overtly leading

9 – Admits he put words in my mouth on a misquote

10 – Explains how in a previous game he self-voted for the greater good.

11 – Admits that TPT was a good starting point for suspicions. Then accuses me for supporting conversation in any direction without taking stands. (He’s talking about my post 121 if you want to read it. I felt I gave opinions there and actually touched base on several discussions which is what he claims I never do and he himself does.)

13 – Admits he is directing conversation so everything doesn’t get focused on only one thing and we miss other avenues.

14 – Says I’m cleared, sees TPT as unhelpful and vote/FoS’ing without any weight.

23 – Reinstates his belief that I generate discussion out of nothing and focus on unimportant things. (He didn’t provide quotes but I assume it was my prior post 211 where I questioned this:

Otherwise I haven't really been reading your posts, too long, this is to your disadvantage because I will gladly be the hammer vote if you're the suspect, even without reading.

(I asked him if he was serious because this seems very anti-town AND important.)

28 – “My initial case on Jahudo was for starting discussion” (love that quote) and he says I voted for TPT over semantics (that was more the last straw of nonsense behavior from TPT that made me vote).

SO if I make an inflammatory statement without thinking again, well I don't see why I shouldn't get lynched if it looks like a scum slip-up

30 – Wants to no-lynch day 1

31 – Defends the no-lynch I didn’t agree with.

33 – Votes me for “smelling fishy”, constantly “being there”, and his instinct. (Where is the evidence?). He says his “impatience is kicking in”. (I think scum would be more impatient, wanting to get to night).

37 – His erratic post containing some appeals to emotion, OMGUS feelings and a desire to vote someone without providing justification because it will “save his own ass”

I’ll leave it off there. This is what I have found scummy about him:

-He often jumps to accusations and later has to withdraw them because he read a post and thought it was by someone else. In one case he voted for Ythill because of something scummy another person said.

-He also admits his impatience and desire for conversations to be shorter or to end entirely (ie. Nureins vs Ythill). It seems he wants to wrap this day up more than he claims I do and he is vocal about doing so.

-He has focused on my from the very beginning and will often draw empty conclusions about me without providing quotes or explanations. He throws out things like “too-townie” or supporting conversation in any direction while he supports conversation in a different direction? Don’t forget that he voted for me because I smelled fishy and was “Constantly being there”

-He wanted to no lynch and it was the timing that gave the impression that this was not an early day 1 newbie suggestion but an impatient person that doesn’t want to scum hunt any more today.

-Read his 28th post “If I do make an inflammatory statement”, then his 37th post and tell me why he wasn’t asking for it. “I don’t see why I shouldn’t be lynched”. I’m talking about how he wanted to vote Tritch to save himself.

[Jahudo]

Here is a summary of Habit’s habits:

1. He jumps to conclusions and accuses people without checking who is actually writing the posts, then accuses the wrong person.
2. He is impatient and wants certain conversations to end.
3. He keeps using empty accusations on me without giving the examples of these wrong things.
4. He suggested a no lynch after his impatience grew thin.
5. Post 259 != post 306.

Now, I’ve felt that these are not great scum tells if you still think Habit is less experienced at the slow flow of these games and his impatience is the cause of these problems.

My vote did not explain all my suspicions on habit but it would have been as long as my recent defenses if I had, and some people (habit) would have ignored them for aversion to long posts. Out of nhats / Simenon / Andy’s votes before me, only Andy really gave support to his vote for habit as scum beyond the fake uncalled-for-ness.

I feel that some people saw only habit’s post 306 and ignored what he was doing up until that point. 306 was an obvious reason to vote, and any scum would have been happy to see habit write it. So I don’t think it is out of the question that scum can give momentum to a post like 306 even in the first 2 votes.

Mass Question:
I'd like to know if anyone who voted, or would have voted, for habit agree/disagree with the points I made not relating to post 306 and if they recognized or overlooked these habits of habitang.

[Jahudo]

Question: Jahudo, what is your stance on habitang right now? You're vote is still on him, correct?

I’ve said that my suspicions of habitang might be misinterpreted as a frustrated, impatient townie. There was also the immediate reaction to my vote that gave me doubt if others were not seeing odd things on habitang throughout the day but mostly and I had tunnelvision, so I did unvote yes.

The question here is what you think. Habit is not a weak player? Habit is inexperienced? Habit is scummy? Habit is just a n00b?

My original post, 311, asked him to explain “the benefit of the doubt” that sounded like appeal to emotion. I asked those questions of him to get a response that might include more logical fallacy or something that would see him again as town.

As for what I think, I have said that inexperience could explain impatience because people who have played more games should be used to playing longer days.

Which makes your vote less scummy how? I'd rather someone post "habit is obvscum" then try to make a weak case sound plausible. The former is lazy. The latter is scummy.

I would rather share my opinions and information than withhold it, which is what lazyness will do. If my case is weak I’ll see if it’s my mistake.

Question for Jah: If it is true that you refrained from posting your pre-306 case in #311 because you feared habit wouldn't read it, then why do you explicitly say (in #311) that #306 changed your view of him? I seriously smell a rat here.

Since I said that post 311 was not to lynch but to question, I saw it as a starting place from where the case would be given to habit after he answered my question on using a logical fallacy.

[Jahudo]

Post 458

The problem is that you said #306 changed your mind. Then, later, you said that you had a large case at that time, much of which was based on posts before #306. So which was it? Did #306 change your mind or not? It can't be both.

My mind before post #306 was stated in #288 shown here.

Post 288

I prefer to argue that both of us have questioned multiple people throughout this day and the reason we have prioritized a certain person is somewhat based on instinct or that gut feeling. Would you agree?

Also if I were to rate a suspect list of my own and omit our two replacements as null tells you would still be in the middle with slightly town inclinations.

He showed dedication in going after me, but I also felt he was scum hunting with the mindset that he would try to make the best choice on Day 1 no matter how long it took. This seemed like a pro-town action to me.

306 changed the way I looked at habit from 288 and I needed to re-examine his posts like he was a different person, like his explosion in 306 wasn’t an isolated incident.
-----------------
About some other cases…

@Citizen Karne: I see instances in which nureins and Cass agree on points and place suspicions around the same time but I don’t think it’s easy to guess what a scum pair will do. Now if they are using poor reasons just like anyone else uses a poor reason then that’s something but like-behavior is the sign of towns too. But I also see where their views differ and they look like normal scum hunters.

You use the weak case on Simenon as an example, but I was also on his case then. In fact, I can find several cases in which nureins, Cass, and I agreed upon: early TPT case, nureins defense, my defense.
So I guess my question is, why am I not a possible pair with them?

@Habitang suspicions on Andy: I think I understand the term “drive-by lurking” when you say he pops in to vote and hasn’t done so much to continue the questioning. That might be a play style. He’s seemed pretty consistent the whole game because people wanted to see more from him early on too. Do you have examples of where this is anti-town?

[Jahudo]

Ythill:

306 changed the way I looked at habit from 288 and I needed to re-examine his posts like he was a different person...

When did you perform that reread?

I started to re-look once he said it and I saw him change around 359-360. I have questioned myself and a possible tunnelvision on some aspects of habit since then and since I acknowledged my change of mind, but then again there’s a lot to mull over in these 20 pages.
-------------------------

In the case of sirdan, stating that he seems "a little slippery" refers to his general argument style. A few examples include: the way he discussed the simplification issue with nuriens, the shifting appeal to Goat's experience

Sirdan is like the anti-Tritch. I don’t see how 437 or 444 contained points that he made but didn’t argue for decisively. He looked pretty sure of what he was saying. No vote though.

Goat’s responses in 466-467 look genuine and not excuses for how he’s acknowledged that he’s been playing lately. I’m not sure how the lurking charge was really solid evidence.

but now it really just seems that he only participates when it would be advantageous to him, whereas a towny player would continuously contribute in order to help the town as a whole and to find scum.

Sirdan: Are you primarily talking about his recent suspicions on people like me and his pbpa of Andy? Could this “advantageous” be applied to someone like Andy as habit to reason?
-----------------------
@Citizen Karne:

However, if you wish, I am willing to withdraw my offer.

Could you comment on my post 480 about you, and in English. All I know is “Where is the bathroom?”

[Jahudo]

Sorry, but I need help catching up (too many stuff). Why am I/habitang was being voted?

Habitang's post 306 (page 13) is very defensive and he arguably wasn't under that much pressure. It brought attention to the ways he has played the game and argued for other things. I'm curious, what do you think habitang was trying to say in post 306? What do you think of the

way

he wrote it?

[Jahudo]

Citizen Karne can you respond to this?

I see instances in which nureins and Cass agree on points and place suspicions around the same time but I don’t think it’s easy to guess what a scum pair will do. Now if they are using poor reasons just like anyone else uses a poor reason then that’s something but like-behavior is the sign of towns too. But I also see where their views differ and they look like normal scum hunters.

You use the weak case on Simenon as an example, but I was also on his case then. In fact, I can find several cases in which nureins, Cass, and I agreed upon: early TPT case, nureins defense, my defense. So I guess my question is, why am I not a possible pair with them?

[Jahudo]

Honestly, every time I try and catch up with this sirdan line of thought I get more confused by the new stuff that pops up and have to start from the beginning. So I don’t have a strong opinion, and won’t comment where I don’t understand yet.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I don't recall you badgering anyone like you are doing to me, or I would've surely noted it.

Ythill has used this badgering tactic in the past, so I don’t see it as a change of character. I also think he's given the defense his reasons beforehand each time and enough slack to react to his badgering in a productive way and not being up against a confirmation bias reasoning.

Post 195

Goebels isn't playing this game. Let's stick to reality, scum.

Referring to nureins.

Post 209

Scum.

Nureins again.

Post 458

Why so slippery?

Referring to me.

Holy shit Ythill. I just pointed out that not giving me a chance to defend myself is very scummy. And now you are refusing to continue the debate, thereby not giving me any chance to defend?

I'm not sure if badgering isn’t both a good and a bad thing, if the defense reacts frustrated and indirect to the original argument, for instance, or if the attack has no basis for an argument when the defense is ready to answer it, could be unhelpful reads for town, especially if they read it without fully understanding the argument.

But like I said, do you think he already has confirmation bias and you think he's stopped debating you? Are you saying we won't be able to find each instance that he lays out dependable points on you?

[Jahudo]

I almost feel as though I no longer need to respond to nuriens, as Simenon as posted exactly what I feel.

nuriens, I find your posts very difficult to read for some reason.

That’s interesting because the only times I recall you responding to nureins is side-tracking discussion into the Spanish language and not getting a real point across. Do you think that “Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument” is a fair summary of the nureins case on Simenon that you called out for having poor reasons? Do you think this is a scum tell?

Nureins may have a bad argument, then and now, but I’m more interested if he is

repeating

arguments without bringing anything new to the table? If yes is his repetitiveness the result of him not getting the point across? Refusal of the alternative argument? A conscious confusion maker?

Also could you explain the bolded part of post 453 and how it especially applies to that those players or that situation instead of any of the people who have two votes on them now?

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons.

A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon.

The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

That kinda highlights what I was wondering about since post 480, but still feel free to answer 480.

[Jahudo]

Consider the playstyles of TheStatusQuo, Oman, and vollkan: players I try to emulate on purpose, because they are effective scumhunters.

Don’t know anything about their playstyles but I can imagine what makes up an “adversarial player” as you say. I’m sure it’s also effective for scum trying to look like effective scumhunters, but if you’re town and this kind of badgering pressure can get good reveals then it should be helpful in later days.

I'm curious as to your reasoning here.

Still waiting for some kind of response. You are still voting nureins. Did Simenon fully summarize nureins attacks on sirdanilot? What do you think of what sirdan offered nuriens?

I was wondering why you aren't suspicious of anyone at all yet after such a long time? Who do you find the most suspicious and why?

Citizen Karne looks pretty scummy to me right now, but that is partially his avoidance to my questions for the past two weeks. It looks too easy for him to agree at face value with Simenon’s summary of nureins “Respond to contrary opinion by repeating bad argument…” and not saying anything himself, especially since he is voting for him.

For now though,

FoS: Citizen Karne

[Jahudo]

Ew. Why did you not FoS or vote him (or anyone else) before I asked? Why did you need my question to do so? I am not fond of this reply...
.

Ew? Um, you asked me who I found suspicious and that was my reply. I figured you didn't know I was trying to investigate Citizen Karne for the past two weeks and then I thought Citizen Karne must not know about it either. I probably wouldn't need an unsubstantiated FoS if X number of days hadn't of passed by.

As for talking about the lynch, I don't feel comfortable putting my vote for Karne if he's not going to talk. I'm just not that confidant but waiting around for another replacement or for him to play more actively doesn't seem like a fair option.

With the whole sirdan v. Ythill issue, I found Ythill's approach fair but I can't decide who is right. I really need to sit down and go through it piece by piece.

Apart from that, I find nhat and Andy's less-active contributions of note but not scummy. I'm also not sure what all this compromise on people you don't think are scummy is.

[Jahudo]

I meant that Ythill said that a wagon on me would be "informative". He must explain it.

I think some of this information would be to look at habitang around post 300 or so (page 13) and how everyone reacted. Also habitang was questioned by more people than several other players have experienced in this game.

I also don't think this information is worth the risk. It may increase the chances of catching scum day 2, but I think it decreases the chances today.


...still reading up on sirdan

[Jahudo]

Okay after rereading I see some good points about Sirdan but also where he’s misleading things.

1) Sirdan gives his opinion that Goat changed his style of play, lurking at convienent times, the PBPA was out of character, etc. When nureins summarized these points, I didn’t see where nureins was manipulating instead of just disagreeing. As a starting point for being suspicious of someone (Goatrevolt) I think Sirdan was justified in what he believed and was doing. On a side note, Goat’s lurking was at the heart of this theory, and that is should be harder to say you’re confidant it’s a scum lurk or a town lurk. I don’t recall Sirdan labeling Goat as scum outright, he showed doubt in 524 and elsewhere I think.

2) The accusations by nureins weren’t the only thing that allowed this seemingly legal debate snowball into the back and forth of ‘I’m not wrong, you’re wrong.’ Sirdan’s reaction posts showed that he either was holding back opinions from before, just coming up with them as time went on, or inflating his case with things we might not fact check in our long succession of long posts. Here’s an example:

People were starting to suspect Goat for not participating, so he might have wanted to suddenly participate more, and you know that scum are paranoid.

Why add this later on after you were under pressure? The only one who suspected Goat for inactivity was Cass back on post 236. To me, this sounds like your case is bolstered by something we supposedly thought, but didn’t.

3) On a side note, Goat’s answers to getting back into the game after his prod seemed appropriate in 466. I don’t see how it would change opinion if you are sure he’s town or scum, but it feels honest to me.

4) I don’t accept the accusation by sirdan that Ythill jumped on him with a vote without prior suspicion and a desire to debate with sirdan. 493 sounded like a fair explanation for why he called sirdan slippery doesn’t have the intention of blindly influencing public opinion. Sirdan-scum may cross the line, but I don’t even know where the line is separating feeling-opinion and thinking-opinion. Stuff like TPT is town and Goebbels has made me take “haha, whatever scum” with a grain of salt.

4b) So I don’t mind the badgering, but it affects sirdan’s reactions depending on his personality and I think that leads to the possibility of misinterpretation. In the back and forths where sirdan says Ythill is refusing to continue the debate and Ythill says sirdan is side-stepping the argument, I feel that the badgering affects this to an extent I don’t see a strong enough tell. I’ve been unsure how effective the “adversarial player” persona is to untested players.

5) Sirdan is TPT’s replacement and I think that does mean something. For me, that’s rollover scumminess and more opportunities where a sirdan lynch brings us information tomorrow.

Ok so top 2 suspects if today ended today:

Citizen Karne for reasons I’ve expressed and sirdanilot I would vote for also. It’s informative and I see holes in his defense.

I got gut suspicions on Ecto and can provide crazy theories and quotes if you want. After that I’m unsure about nhat and Andy but don’t have much to turn to. The rest are pro-town and even though Pacman can kick-start lots to talk about tomorrow, I don’t want to vote him.

[Jahudo]

*In Jah’s case, I gave his 4 points to his top suspect. I only included his vote target (Goat) as honorable mention because he explicitly said that he would be uncomfortable lynching him right now. Which begs the question, why is Jah still voting for Goat?

Actually the vote count says Goat is voting for me, not the other way around. I unvoted, but will vote now.

Karne hasn't been very active lately and I find his avoidance of accusations troubling, but if the polling is accurate I don't know if it's prudent to prolong the day on the number 3 choice if he won't defend himself. Plus he's not as informative as a sirdan lynch would be.

Vote: sirdanilot

[Jahudo]

Judging by the placed votes, we're basically at a 4-way tie. Maybe people not so willing to change votes should make brief cases (just a paragraph or two) for their suspect and people willing to change their vote consider them? Or people could volunteer to switch now. Just a thought.

Citizen Karne has been really absent of late, but is also absent from another game I'm in with him, so I don't see it as meaningful either way. If he gets his prod I'd like to see his response to Cass's case.

I won't comment on that game, but in here Karne's avoidance to questions looks like a general apathy of active gaming. He was trying to group scum by only taking one angle to make it work and ignoring others, so I'd say it was pretty bad behavior on his part. He didn't really post much substantial material while he was dodging our questions, so maybe his avoidance was more a product of inactivity and apathy to 20+ pages of reading.

[Jahudo]

sirdan over ythill, karne over pacman. If it's karne I want to hear from his replacement.

[Jahudo]

I agree with Ythill about pacman's play; I don't think he's done anything bad on his own so far, or else I don't interpret it that way. If the feeling is more about habitang still, than why did his wagon end and why did the questioning largely end even before he had to be replaced?

[Jahudo]

Just for reference here's the doppelganger posts. Darox: What if someone is still on the fence with nureins? How does an unsubstantiated claim move this game along? How does it get people to talk about nureins for instance, instead of the claim itself, when it isn't lined out?

The other people I found scummy were nureins and Cass. Cass mostly for the way she pursued Simenon, and nureins because I think he is scummy.

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons. A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon. The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

For the record I'm still ok with a sirdan-scum lynch if we're doing the concensus thing, but Darox looks like the continuation of anti-town Karne to me from these posts.

[Jahudo]

Please explain how suspecting Cass is an anti town action, thanks.

I said Karne was anti-town. He made that statement about nureins/Cass buddying and after we asked him things about it he ignored it, but he continued to post on other stuff until he was replaced.

I don't have a read on your actions but I'd like to know if your suspicion on nureins/Cass vs. Simenon can tell us anything new that hasn't been said or unsaid before.

[Jahudo]

The other people I found scummy were nureins and Cass. Cass mostly for the way she pursued Simenon, and nureins because I think he is scummy.

Ok so the second sentence does not explain why nureins, but since he also pursued Simenon I can only wonder if his "way" there was indicative of scum behavior. Is this accurate, or was he towny in that situation?

And as to 'suspecting Cass is anti town', I'm mainly trying to find out why only some of the people who attacked Simenon back then looked scummy. I'm pretty sure I had a role in it, but that was so long ago it was written on stone tablets.

[Jahudo]

For people who want to debate habitang: I did a mostly complete pbpa in post 411 and nureins commented on that in 413, and my reasons for voting summarized on 419 (this should all be on page 17). Although it seemed every post I made between page 13 to 17 or so was about habit so I can go back over any parts if wanted.

One set of questions I can think of: What do people read from when habit started talking about the vigilante and said we should no lynch. Did it seem like he was relying on the vig to catch scum? Is it a strong tell that he was diverting scum hunting to talk about the setup and suggest this no lynch so late in the day?

[Jahudo]

I'm willing to accept sirdan-docs claim for today at least. For me the risk of lynching a claimed townie with a roleblocked power role is worse than going after a scum suspect of equal or greater value to others.

If sirdan-doc is telling the truth, I'm not sure I see the scum already on his wagon or were pressuring him to claim. I think they just sat on the sidelines and reeled in the benefits.

If sirdan-scum is lying, maybe other power roles will solve our problem later on.

I'm unvoting and will place another before deadline.

unvote

[Jahudo]

Kuribo: What things have you seen from pacman that are exclusive to his own playing and not habitangs? Also my offer to debate habitang is still there. If you think I incorrectly labeled him as town after all that attacking him and defending against Ythill, then I'd like to debate that too.

In this game I feel I've been having perception problems. Darox/Karne hasn't looked helpful on the surface, therefore he must be scum. But with Karne there wasn't enough time to see his motive develop into something either helpful or detrimental. Same with Darox, but since he's become public enemy #1 I think its worth looking into the motives of the ones on him that weren't giving him (or Karne) as much thought before he climbed the suspect ladder. I still don't see Darox's progression to suspicions on pacman and nureins, but agree that it didn't develop to show intent and 30+ can, even if it's not yours.

[Jahudo]

From looking at those on the Darox wagon and the reasons to vote him that are listed in Ythill's 952 I thinks there's some justifiable motivation. The deadline accounts for the momentum probably.

Alot that Darox can still answer along with his claim.

And it is 'hammer by 24th or we get a no lynch, right?' In that case I'll obv support hammering Darox over the no lynch.

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo: Why is the case that Darox was your top scum before and you stayed out of the voting group ?

Back when Darox was at L-1, Ythill was volunteering to hammer and I was hoping to debate pacman up until the deadline.

That bandwagon following habit's appeal to emotion in 306 should be informative. nhat, Sim, then Andy (kuribo) votes, Cass fos, I vote, then Goat and Ythill act as voices of reason to stop the bandwagon. I think nureins was trying to stay neutral there for a time, not exactly sure. Anyway, if habit was in danger of a lynch back then, maybe Goat and/or Ythill are scum and were trying to distract.

Doctor Sirdan: who did you protect last night?

[Jahudo]

As far as the reasons for the Darox lynch, I saw sirdan's claim being a large factor because he was the top vote getter. But Darox as a lurker? If that's the reason then why not vote for nhat or Goat who might be posting the least here. Darox as aggressive? Then why not vote Ythill? I had my own reasons for suspecting Karne and then Darox but those were not it.

I think many town could have voted on a couple misreads in the last few RL days of the deadline that was getting chaotic, but a couple scum supporting the lynch sounds likely. Looking to how people interacted with pac/habit yesterday should help more in finding the other scum though. See if anyone helped him and limited their suspicion or interaction entirely.

IIRC, habit first got on me for going after TPT. Does anyone think this is a sign of scum protecting scum?

[Jahudo]

Going back to page 7, Simenon and nureins are suspects. They both have two votes (Andy and nureins on Sim, Ecto and Ythill on nureins; and Sim is on Ythill). Also around this time habitang has been trying to bring attention to my actions and find scumtells without help from others.

Post 169 habit thinks the big suspects in the game are TPT, Sim, and nureins. He leaves himself open to voting TPT without giving a strong feeling, but he does think Sim and nureins are town. He also clears me for the moment but we know that doesn’t last long.

Post 170 he actually tells Sim and nureins to not focus on one another. He says Ecto and Cass are also to blame for allowing this wrong direction to take place. Habit then votes Andy for not taking much of a stand.

Assuming I’m town, I think habitang hoped for a stronger wagon on me. He drops his suspicion so he could help another wagon. He ends up voting Ythill next, who was attacking nureins. I find it interesting that habit was prepared himself to switch wagons when nureins was a suspect, and he did switch wagons when more people suspected nureins.

At other times in the game he’s quoted nureins and admits he doesn’t know who the quote belongs to, he defends nureins' posts by saying he doesn’t find any scum-tells while at the same time he says that nureins is hard to read and his posts are too long.

Page 10 and 11 he’s debating points with Ythill about nureins and admits that nureins could be a good lynch but then he goes and says he wants a no-lynch. Then he votes me again. It had looked like the elements of a nureins wagon were there with people already looking in that direction, but he goes off on his own with a no-lynch then back to me all on his own.

Fast forward to the deadline nureins says nurmerous times that he will vote pacman over a no-lynch. I don’t think this is a hole in the argument though, but we can only speculate the various possibilities.

I’m not sold on this theory as it applies to the entire game but I like it now.

Vote: nureins

[Jahudo]

Well Darox wasn't a power role so he doesn't have an advantage of knowing something from the first time around, right? And he doesn't have to read 40+ pages to catchup, which is good.

[Jahudo]

Comments on my post?

I think it's interesting that his opinion goes from yesterday saying pacman needs to die, then to pacman's wagon is scum-driven, to today Darox I and pacman both looked scummy. That might be an inconsistency, unless the pacman wagon only looked scummy because it was stalled. In that case it looks like an external scum-tell, not dealing directly with pacman.

What do you think about Ecto being the assumed night kill though?

---

On to nureins:

2. Basically, they help the other one to build an image of newbie. And they go on in an increasing level of cross-posting, but irrelevant.

You initially agreed I was being consistent with my reaction posts to habitang, who you called an erratic player. Sometimes you have to make a FoS on something minor like a misquote when you are still early in the day and watching for reactions. Also, if you go through the day it was habit who provoked and I reacted. I was actually trying to look at more people but spent most of my time answering him.

None of them took a serious position in the Ythill vs Nureins affair. This applies to the whole of the game, in my sense. (I pointed out to ythill something like that related to habit, if I remember well). This is important, as Ythill and myself are the two most active players IMO.

I don't think being the most active is an automatic town tell, nor is involving yourself in every debate. I was paying attention to it without cluttering it or answering questions that were not posed to me. IIRC Ythill was covering all the bases with questions about that beautiful dance argument. That was the Ythill v. nureins you were talking about?

But never and none took a position in our goebels affair.

It didn't make much sense. In hindsight I see it now as a distraction that wasn't well received anyway.

[Jahudo]

HE SELECTS A VERY MINOR AMOUNT OF DEBATABLE ACTIONS (though he claims it is based on the whole day)
HE ONLY USES HABIT ACTIONS TO JUSTIFY A VOTE ON ME

Yes because I said I would try to find habit/pacman's partner by looking at how habit interacted with people. I will go back and weigh your posts more carefully now too. For starters, I could go back to when I posted 'if habitang was town' material and you were defending me against Ythill.

POST 419. After a pbpa analysis of half a page, Jahudo easily moves his mind.

Ythill and Goat made me consider my tunnel-visioned attacks on habit were not seeing all possibilities. So I went back and considered that habit was inexperienced and impatience with the long, drawn out day. I think in hindsight that is still true, but I got the alignment wrong on my re-read. Post 419 gave my top scumtells on habit, but my mind read impatience is what a habit-town would do.

Post 589. jahudo comes back to karne, as karne has not been posting frequently.

It wasn't because of his posting frequency. I told him he's not being productive by talking about talking in Spanish for this game, and only revealing that his feelings towards nureins were reflected in what Simenon kinda-joked-about but karne doesn't go into depth. Then I say nureins has had bad arguments and prod karne into explaining himself. Was I being too "sweet" to you there?

Post 627. He has no candidates. Doesnt want to decide among Ythill-Sirdan, prefers to wait for karne participating.

But then karne disappears and I go back through the Ythill-sirdan debate that includes nureins and Goat in supporting roles and I found sirdan scummy. This is about a day after you say I didn't decide.

Emptiness. No cases. No real suspicions of anyone else.

I seem to remember a nureins leading the charge on getting our top 2 or 3 scum choices. In post 649 I said 1) Karne 2) sirdan but given more time I'd look at Ecto because I could "provide crazy theories and quotes", and Andy, nhat were others I wouldn't dismiss as town.

[Jahudo]

-Here's the big one, and the only solid reason I have for doubting his claim:

How does TPT's play make sense if he's the doc?

A quick meta on TPT's other games, 5, all ended in which he posted rarely and was replaced in all, show him mostly joking around even after the random vote phase. In each game his last post was on the same day. One might think that as a pro-town power role he would act more serious but that depends if he plays this game to win or just to goof around. So I don't think TPT's attitude makes him any less likely to be town doc or scum.

[Jahudo]

August 7 was a busy day for this game. This was the Goebbels day where nureins had some very long posts but I’m only looking at habitang’s participation here.

First time I did some proper reading on Nureins I think, previously was based on assuming that NUreins was just a crazy Town who liked to post eveyrthing.

My first impression was that NUreins seemed to be buddying up to eveyrone! I agree with you on this, I agree with you on that! BUt then in the context of him posting on absoultey eveyrthing, this makes sense.

If TPT is paired with NUreins, then we should vote NUreins since Nureins initiated the coaching.
If TPT is not paired with NUreins, Nureins may have initiated the coaching just to get his scum buddy free. But Nureins was not under sufficient heat to start thinking about distancing from his buddy so I do not think that this can be the case.

Post 233 is an important post because it is either coming from scum who is open to jumping on the nureins wagon, or scum distancing himself from scum who is himself accused of buddying.

I sound liek full pro-scum the way you put my stance on scum-hunting. NO fair, you took eveyrthign otu of context. In particular, teh context of Nureins who loves posting on absolutely EVERYTHING.

Well I definitely see it as N00b play by Nureins when he posts on everything. That is if he is Townie. If he is scum, I think he is more N00b scum, since if he was experienced he wouldn't have any arguments against him at teh same time, the massive muddying of waters is a good cover-up.

So what I propose is a no-lynch, or no-vote. Whatever it is. Let me see, 12 people. Night Kill x 1 by scum. NK x 1 by vigilante and we still have a ratio of 8:2 at best or 6:4 at worst.
But in all likelihood,the way this first day is going, I feel like Nureins has sorta stuffed it up for a proper investigation. Any scum coudl easily make a stance by saying Nureins is scum or town and then accuse eitehr nureins or say eveyrone is null-tell.

Most of August 7, habitang was trying to get across the notion that nureins talked a lot about everything and buddy to people, but those were not scum tells in his mind. The sheer number of similar sounding posts by habitang on this theory caught my attention. Because they are back to back, and not in one post, it’s possible that habitang was worried his first post didn’t carry enough weight to get the group’s attention. I think he really wanted to divert attention from nureins. In the end, he chose the no lynch over bussing nureins.

Thoughts?

[Jahudo]

About my tone with Ythill, it is probably something like respect. The first time we debated, I found his arguments quite poor and manipulative. With time, I perceived that it was not the second. About the first, I have serious doubts, as I have reviewed my talk with him and yet find my points mostly correct.

Do you mean manipulative of your own words, or something else specifically? Also do you mean poor as in incorrect or lacking substance/evidence/...?

I re-read the early arguments between nureins and Ythill and can see what Goatrevolt is talking about. I think nureins tries to make allies with his 'town reads' for when he comes under attack. His perception change on Ythill looks odd if he still thinks Ythill's arguments were poorly constructed only when they affected nureins as scum.

Also this:

I find Ythill as reason-based townie.
Therefore, I talk with him at a serious level.

Sounds alot like this:

Good, I expected that of you (Ectomancer, noc noc, you are failing us

And this:

Ecto, allow me this at the same time I swallow my pride by accepting your superiority

Sounds like this:

...we, the retarded open you the doors of our house.

In that nureins is making a joke but still looking for an ally. In the past I think his "town reads" were based on flimsy views he's held that can sway when a town is no longer an ally. So here's a few points that I think are still valid:

Names 7 of 12 players as possibly implicated in #38-39. Gives ambivalent “town-soft” reads on two of them, with little new evidence, in #53. (scum)

Posts the “which is a joke?” quiz (#58) to his declared townies, myself, and the lead suspect. The examples all shed suspicion on two opposed players. The post leaves a very obvious exit from any attempt to discredit it (scum).

[Jahudo]

Do you want me to discuss Goebels again?

I understand the case as you presented it with regards to Ythill's tactics, but my own interpretation is that you tried to make up and embellish scum tells on his style of play that can be legitimate as town, and of course you now think Ythill's town.

In any case, I said FOUND. I do not find them anymore like that. Neither manipulative nor quite poor...This does not mean Ythill is a nonsense person, as Kuribo or Darox, or a mafia guy jumping onto me, as you...

I can't really argue with your beliefs so I'll drop my argument there. As for nonsensical people, I think they know what they're doing and why it can be effective in riling up scum. A real nonsense person was TPT.

Brilliant trick. MANIPULATIVE.

It was your own words. If you felt any combination of sarcasm/condescension/remorse for Ecto and Kuribo at those times, I can't read it. In any case, they hurt the nureins who is "sharing opinions and information with people" and who is "open to look for people to help in the task of developing scum debate".

can you give examples in which I havent re-read profusely the thread and construct a serious case against ?

Yes, the examples I brought up have already been analyzed and discussed. I don't have a problem with how you defended them, but I think that your actions could have been performed by scum.

Your argument on him guessing correctly is ridiculous. 2 observations, 1 correct guess (Pacman), 1 incorrect guess (me). Hardly the study is statistically serious. This seems to me an argument you can use against a child, do not treat me as if I am dumb.

But there's the burden of proof from where we're all standing, because you are not confirmed town. You also ignore parts of the late day 1 interactions by saying that an argument based on them is childish.

I already said that I have played only one complete (serious) mafia game in my life.
By the way, that game was 4 days long. I voted essentially 3 persons. Two of them were scum.

Saying it in this game does not make your actions any more town. It's irrelevant.

[Jahudo]

Are we on deadline?

No

Who are we trying to string up?

nureins, Jahudo, Simenon and Ythill have votes.

[Jahudo]

I remember when players used to at least promise to take a new look at the game.

Simenon: Do you have any changed feelings today? What do you think about the current situation and who are your suspects / what do you think about the people with votes on them?

Cass: Do you think that Simenon is withholding his suspects and opinions on the current suspects, and also not looking for scum? If yes, how do you feel about it?

Nureins needs to die. I'm not convinced he is scum, but he still needs to die.

If you were to vote nureins now, he would be L-1.

[Jahudo]

I'm on board for the mass claim. It looks like we really need to figure out what's been happening at night.

@Simenon: Cass is town, by the way.

[Jahudo]

I'm on board for the mass claim. It looks like we really need to figure out what's been happening at night.

@Simenon: Cass is town, by the way.

Also, Jahudo, you should clarify this.

I claim

Mason with Cass

[Jahudo]

Is there the possibility of a scum Mason partner?

Isn't the point of a mafia mason that the town mason wouldn't know it's a possibility? If you want we can summarize our role PM's? Cass do you want to go first when you check in?

I recall you not knowing what masons were early on in the game...I'm not sure how your claim fits with your interaction with Simenon from earlier either.

It wasn't that I didn't know about masons, I just didn't think I was "mason fishing" when I asked Simenon if TPT was his partner. I thought I was in the polygamist game because they started at the same time and we had a couple of the same players

[Jahudo]

Are you absolutely sure Cass is town?

Yes

[Jahudo]

I want to hear from Ecto but picking between Darox and Sim sounds like a good plan.

[Jahudo]

Mafia already lost their tracker in pacman, so Ythill is a pro-town tracker.

Pacman was watcher. I don't know if that eliminates a scum tracker possibility though.

[Jahudo]

Recap. Does this look accurate?

The Claims:
Sirdan the doc protected kuribo last night, ecto night 1
Ythill tracked sirdan to kuribo night 2, Cass going nowhere night 1
Simenon roleblocked Cass night 2 and pacman night 1
Darox 2 roleblocked Ecto night 2 and pacman night 1
Jahudo mason
Cass mason
Goatrevolt vanilla town
Kuribo vanilla town
Ecto Vig was roleblocked night 2 and killed pacman night 1

The Questions:
Why didn’t scum kill night 1: Because pacman was RB’ed or Ecto was protected. I find it more likely that nureins tried to night kill because he was Godfather and was more active than pacman anyway.
Why didn’t scum kill night 2: Because kuribo was protected.

And Today's plans:
YTHILL’s PLAN:
Lynch Ecto today, have RBs target each other at night. Hang RB tomorrow and next day if needed.

GOAT's PLAN:
Lynch Darox or Sim today. The other RB’s Ecto at night.

ECTO’s PLAN:
Lynch Darox. Ecto kills Sim at night.

[Jahudo]

I don't think there are two town RBs and we should settle that today in case we still have 2 scum. If we kill Ecto, who's not scum, today and mislynch tomorrow, I don't want to be at day 5 with 2 scum and at least 3 town.

So I think it should either be Darox or Sim today. If they're town, I think Ecto should NK the other because I think one of them is lying. If we get a scum today, Ecto might be SK and we can win tomorrow, or we might have a fourth scum which we can deal with day 5 with 1 scum and at least 3 town.

Vote: Simenon

[Jahudo]

The people voting Simenon seem to be approaching it from the idea that one of them is lying about being a roleblocker.

When I said I didn't think there were 2 RBs, I meant 2 on the town side.

I remember Cass defending Jahudo fairly strongly day 1, which would certainly support them being masons together, for instance.

Fun Fact: I accused Citizen Karne for trying to pair nureins and Cass together and my excuse was why he couldn't pair Cass and myself together.

[Jahudo]

If that's the case for Sim and Darox, then I need to take a closer look. And nhat's profile said he was from PRC, so one reason his posts were short might be english as a second language. But then we had alot of people with that in this game.

[Jahudo]

Whats the vote count look like?

You're at L-1.

I'd rather not go to night until she's confrimed the mason claim.

I would like for her to post at least once before night. Last night she felt Sim could be scum or power role, and Darox or Ecto could be the vig/SK, so I really hope she comes back to see this and explain where she saw it.

Sirdanilot -> Should be protecting any player other than Simenon. (Don't reveal your target until after Ythill)
Ythill -> Tracking Sirdanilot

Will Ythill tracking sirdan do anything but confirm his tracker status, since there's that watcher & tracker scum possibility? What if we do have a fourth scum, should he be looking for that?

[Jahudo]

Frig, that was Ythill not Darox. Also you're taking this whole getting lynched twice in a game thing pretty easy. Hoping to come back as Darox 3 for Cass?

[Jahudo]

Goat, I understand what you're saying but that plan assumes something we cannot confirm: that scum can't NK and use a power. I also agree that sirdan is a likely night kill target because of his confirmed and useful town role. We could get more out of assuming Ythill is town IMO.

[Jahudo]

re-read on nhat's interactions with known scum:

Simenon and Nureins have posts longer than John Holmes...On the whole though, none of it looks too scummy.

This was early on, I guess back when Sim was in true form.

Nureins has absolutely no reason to be as verbose as he is...but it looks like a good opportunity for scum types to snipe at him freely and bandwagon.

He's talking about Ythill and then goes and FoS Ythill.

I'm finding Habitang to be suspicious as all hell...Also, his excuses for hopping on and off and onto Jahudo are lighter than Zippos.

He then FoS habitang for that, then votes him when he has that emotional post that got more of us voting habitang.

I don't see why those who voted for him are catching so much heat. Now we even have Cass coaching him after giving him the FoS, which is a bit strange to me.

He defends me for voting habitang but then he pushing suspicion to Cass.

About Jahudo's case against habitang in post 411, I think that is a pretty good sum up. What I'd really like to know is why nureins decided to up and defend habitang out of the blue in post 413. Not just in passing, either, it was a long winded post.
FoS - Nureins

Wait, could nhat-scum have just thrown suspicion on his partner, nureins-scum, who was trying to defend his other partner habitang-scum?

And nearing the deadline nhat's top suspects were Ythill, then pacman, then nureins. When Darox became a suspect, however, nhat voted for Darox. His reasons for nureins were ridiculous but the reasons on pacman were more serious. Darox also wanted to vote pacman, but it was his lack of an explanation that got nhat to switch his vote.

It's funny that one of the people responsible for lynching Darox 1 might be used against Darox 2. From this re-read alone I am more confidant in lynching Darox. nhat might have been willing to bus pacman but he switched to Darox without putting much consideration into it.

Back to L-1,

Vote: Darox

[Jahudo]

Nighty night

[Jahudo]

Hah. I was ready to proclaim sirdan the ultimate doc for saving the right people both nights, but it turns out he was blocked night 1 and there wasn't a kill night 2. Why didn't you tell us you were 1 shot doc?

I agree that kuribo helped give this game good direction, but seven people not having to be replaced is good too. And those roleblocks were well chosen with Sim night 1 and Darox night 2.

Also: Yay my first win