Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[nureins]

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

Of course I was simple. I announced that precisely, that I was going to be simple. I can develop my points if you really think I am simple, but the rest of players seem not to like my long post. It is difficult for me to be concise and at the same time describe my ideas. So here I go developing a bit more.

1. Passive play, not what I'm used to see of Goatrevolt, so this is scummy in itself. You didn't include that in your summary.

I included but very briefly. My point was exactly that any player, when doing a case on someone, typically writes more than did before. Indeed, Goat said at some moment he would like to participate more and I guess describing his suspects and doing a case on the most scummish for him was his way to participate more. I find this very natural. I havent metagamed Goat, so in that aspect I cannot comment, maybe you are right.

2. Change of play style to being less passive, although his new playing style is less scummy, the change in itself is a scum tell. A towny wouldn't do that, in my opinion.

I find all the play style coherent along the game, due to the comments I did before. Having a play style does not mean necessarily to write in a monotone way all the time, but collaborating in a particular way and of course, depending on the circumstances of the game, the personal aspects or real life, other issues, etc...

3. Nureins, you're completely wrong on the other points. I am not saying

Goatrevolt

is tunnel visioned, I am saying that the

method

Goatrevolt used is tunnel visioned in itself, and that Goatrevolt is experienced enough to know that and perhaps abuse it if he's scum.

I do not think Im wrong. Precisely, Goat is conscious of tunnel vision and even announces it. He is not doubting in letting his mind to focus on the scum particular aspects of a player (in this case jahudo), because he thinks he is scum due to the general aspect of the game, so he tries to simplify the information for the rest of players. And since he openly admits the possibility of tunnel vision, other players can discuss his points openly and point him out this and other aspects. This also allows, and Ive seen an open debate, other players occupying a opposite position if they believe jah is town. By the way, I largely did so, and Ive perceived in jah and ythill a cooperative debating attitude, even if they occupy a different position. This allows me to see Goat ok in his jahudo case, though I do not share his opinion (and by passing, ythill has gone down too in my scumeter, maybe both of us were tunnel visioned too in our dispute).

A very different situation would have been if Goat position was closed to comments and completely sure of his position as you maybe try to suggest with your comments.

Since you say sophistication is not a scum tell, Ill not comment 4.

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

He is far away from being the king of lurkers in this game. I have 2 or 3 persons clearly up in lurkers list, and he is not one of them. I guess it is not needed to go on a full description of his activity in the game for seeing that...


With respect to your quote on goat, i guess i already answered above.

[nureins]

Note that I didn't tell nuriens to "shut up".

The charge that I have not "provided enough content" was in fact exactly what I responding to, Ask me what to comment on, and we'll get somewhere.

Otherwise, well, you know.

Ummm, if I remember well, my suspicions derive essentially from:

- You make a completely out of reason assertion.
- I or somebody else point to you that and ask for clarification.
- You answer without any content again.


This included the "TPT is town", your vote on habitang and now it has to include your "shut up" point.

- You make a completely out of reason assertion (by suggesting people was lecturing you and writting such "shut up" point.
- I pointed out that this sounds like lecturing and undervaluing other players (maybe those who point out your scummish actions, dunno), and at the same time, writting very clearly what I wanted you to answer, not to let you use the shut up point by deviating attention as always.
- Again, you prefered to enter a stupid nonsense debate about if your "shut up" was linguistically an imposition or a sentence with two options available...I asked for your suspects and reasoned arguments about them being scummish for you, it seems you didnt read that part...

[Simenon]

I wasn't talking to you.

[Citizen Karne]

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons. A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon. The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

[nureins]

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons. A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon. The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

1. I dont see the team at any place. Simenon did what Im expressing for long. Other players also found it very strange and asked about it, including Cass.

2. I try to look at the very poor reasons, and I dont see them at any point. On the other hand, I see a clear antitown attitude which is extremely suspicious. Especially coz it is repeated...

3. For Cass jumping off, I need to re-read but I do not remember it.

4. For Cass trying to ask me for geting off, thanks for noticing, since it is first news. It seems Cass was not successful on that, as Simenon is on top of my scumeter, especially as he reiterates his attitudes.

Since you have a clear case on a scum pair, Id like to know which part of Cass and myself arguing on Simenon unreasoned post you think is a fake...and if you like, you can go on with simenon unreasoned vote to habitang and his last shut up issue in which again, he prefered not to answer me and again not to give reasons, suspects, etc...are you able to specify who his suspects are and his reasons, or who his townies are and his reasons
Maybe you can answer me, and that way we all learn a bit...

[habitang]

@ Citizen: Just a tip. We shouldn't be getting into scum-pairing until we have a solid something to work off, ie. lynch/NK. I did the same thing in my first game. Otherwise we can talk forever about the infinite possibilities and get into a lot of WIFOM (circular reasoning).

[Ythill]

THank you, habit. Somebody needed to say something. Let's put the conspiracy evidence on hold until we have a confirmed alignment to work with.

[Jahudo]

Question: Jahudo, what is your stance on habitang right now? You're vote is still on him, correct?

I’ve said that my suspicions of habitang might be misinterpreted as a frustrated, impatient townie. There was also the immediate reaction to my vote that gave me doubt if others were not seeing odd things on habitang throughout the day but mostly and I had tunnelvision, so I did unvote yes.

The question here is what you think. Habit is not a weak player? Habit is inexperienced? Habit is scummy? Habit is just a n00b?

My original post, 311, asked him to explain “the benefit of the doubt” that sounded like appeal to emotion. I asked those questions of him to get a response that might include more logical fallacy or something that would see him again as town.

As for what I think, I have said that inexperience could explain impatience because people who have played more games should be used to playing longer days.

Which makes your vote less scummy how? I'd rather someone post "habit is obvscum" then try to make a weak case sound plausible. The former is lazy. The latter is scummy.

I would rather share my opinions and information than withhold it, which is what lazyness will do. If my case is weak I’ll see if it’s my mistake.

Question for Jah: If it is true that you refrained from posting your pre-306 case in #311 because you feared habit wouldn't read it, then why do you explicitly say (in #311) that #306 changed your view of him? I seriously smell a rat here.

Since I said that post 311 was not to lynch but to question, I saw it as a starting place from where the case would be given to habit after he answered my question on using a logical fallacy.

[Ythill]

As for what I think, I have said that inexperience could explain impatience because people who have played more games should be used to playing longer days.

This is neither a stance nor a solid opinion about habit's alignment. Why so slippery?

Question for Jah: If it is true that you refrained from posting your pre-306 case in #311 because you feared habit wouldn't read it, then why do you explicitly say (in #311) that #306 changed your view of him? I seriously smell a rat here.

Since I said that post 311 was not to lynch but to question, I saw it as a starting place from where the case would be given to habit after he answered my question on using a logical fallacy.

I don't see how your answer addresses my concern. Maybe I'm just being dense, but here's the contradiction I'm talking about. This...

This post certainly changed my position of you, yes.

Vote: habitang

...followed shortly thereafter by a long PbPA which identifies habit's scumtells from earlier than his #306, followed by this...

My vote did not explain all my suspicions on habit but it would have been as long as my recent defenses if I had, and some people (habit) would have ignored them for aversion to long posts.

The problem is that you said #306 changed your mind. Then, later, you said that you had a large case at that time, much of which was based on posts before #306. So which was it? Did #306 change your mind or not? It can't be both.

Explain why you've claimed it's both.

[nhat]

About Jahudo's case against habitang in post 411, I think that is a pretty good sum up. What I'd really like to know is why nureins decided to up and defend habitang out of the blue in post 413. Not just in passing, either, it was a long winded post.

FoS - Nureins

[nureins]

About Jahudo's case against habitang in post 411, I think that is a pretty good sum up. What I'd really like to know is why nureins decided to up and defend habitang out of the blue in post 413. Not just in passing, either, it was a long winded post.

FoS - Nureins

I am not Jahudo. So I have not to agree with Jahudo in everything. I saw his comments correct as for the descriptive part...but I wanted him to see that you can interpret all this attitude as part of a weak player who rushes impatiently because his only fish in the lake, which was jahudo,may escape

This does not mean I have completely forgotten Habitang as a suspicious player. Simply that for the moment I have better candidates and he is dancing around not on the top. This is what I transmitted to Jahudo, and probably was a compromising point in between who find him suspicious for his case on habitang, and his point of view which is "habitang is suspicious". Im not buying any, since I truly believe jahudo is building a case on habitang that is somewhat consistent, but I do not agree with his conclusions.

[Cass]

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons. A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon. The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

1) There was no teaming, if someone does something obviously anti-town (and heaps hypocrisy on top of it...), generally several persons ill go after them. Especially if he was the first player in the game to draw suspicion. This is the weakest evidence of a pairing I've ever seen.
2) The reasons weren't poor. I do not regret attacking him for what he did at all.
3) I jumped off because I realized I was getting tunnelvisioned, which is a bad thing early day one (perhaps always). This doesn't mean I dropped all suspicion, just that I went to look at some other players too. I

never

told Nuriens or anyone else to stop suspecting him! I never even said

I

had stopped suspecting him!

FoS: Citizen Karne

for lying and bs scumpairing.

[Cass]

ebwop: ill = will

[sirdanilot]

@Goatrevolt: Please jump in and reply to my case, and how nureins handles it.

The fact that you were very active as scum doesn't mean that you can lurk and look town, it's not simple like that.

I've noting that sirdan's response was something like "nuh-uh, look what I said".

What?

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

Of course I was simple. I announced that precisely, that I was going to be simple. I can develop my points if you really think I am simple, but the rest of players seem not to like my long post. It is difficult for me to be concise and at the same time describe my ideas. So here I go developing a bit more.

You was too simple. You manipulated my points and turned them into something I don't approve of. You cannot defend a case that way.

1. Passive play, not what I'm used to see of Goatrevolt, so this is scummy in itself. You didn't include that in your summary.

I included but very briefly. My point was exactly that any player, when doing a case on someone, typically writes more than did before. Indeed, Goat said at some moment he would like to participate more and I guess describing his suspects and doing a case on the most scummish for him was his way to participate more. I find this very natural. I havent metagamed Goat, so in that aspect I cannot comment, maybe you are right.

People were starting to suspect Goat for not participating, so he might have wanted to suddenly participate more, and you know that scum are paranoid.

Modifies his playstyle: I don't agree with that, at all. I do not think that the fact that you suspect someone enough to post a case on him is a good excuse to change your play style.

2. Change of play style to being less passive, although his new playing style is less scummy, the change in itself is a scum tell. A towny wouldn't do that, in my opinion.

I find all the play style coherent along the game, due to the comments I did before. Having a play style does not mean necessarily to write in a monotone way all the time, but collaborating in a particular way and of course, depending on the circumstances of the game, the personal aspects or real life, other issues, etc...

Define 'collaborating'.

3. Nureins, you're completely wrong on the other points. I am not saying

Goatrevolt

is tunnel visioned, I am saying that the

method

Goatrevolt used is tunnel visioned in itself, and that Goatrevolt is experienced enough to know that and perhaps abuse it if he's scum.

I do not think Im wrong. Precisely, Goat is conscious of tunnel vision and even announces it. He is not doubting in letting his mind to focus on the scum particular aspects of a player (in this case jahudo), because he thinks he is scum due to the general aspect of the game, so he tries to simplify the information for the rest of players. And since he openly admits the possibility of tunnel vision, other players can discuss his points openly and point him out this and other aspects. This also allows, and Ive seen an open debate, other players occupying a opposite position if they believe jah is town. By the way, I largely did so, and Ive perceived in jah and ythill a cooperative debating attitude, even if they occupy a different position. This allows me to see Goat ok in his jahudo case, though I do not share his opinion (and by passing, ythill has gone down too in my scumeter, maybe both of us were tunnel visioned too in our dispute).

A very different situation would have been if Goat position was closed to comments and completely sure of his position as you maybe try to suggest with your comments.

So basically, if you do something scummy and admit it, it's alright? That's really not a valid argument imo.

Since you say sophistication is not a scum tell, Ill not comment 4.

Not a scumtell, but it means he's experienced so you can be damn sure he knows what he does.

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

He is far away from being the king of lurkers in this game. I have 2 or 3 persons clearly up in lurkers list, and he is not one of them. I guess it is not needed to go on a full description of his activity in the game for seeing that...


With respect to your quote on goat, i guess i already answered above.

How does this clear him in any way? The fact that there are two real lurkers only makes it easier for him to slide under the radar by posting only a little bit more than them. You are only reinforcing my point here.

[nureins]

@Goatrevolt: Please jump in and reply to my case, and how nureins handles it.

Which case? If you re-read the game (seems you have to do it), my vote on TPT was because he was a top lurker and his attitude with the first wagon on him was terribly suspicious. From my initial list of suspects:

- TPT never stopped lurking, Tritch did nothing and I was waiting to have a vis a vis with the person replacing, which is you now...my view from outside was that he was scummy somehow, and now in the vis a vis, I dont like the way you have started.

- Simenon sounded scummish to me both in the vis a vis and from outside, so he is in my top suspects list.


- habitang was difficult to catalogue, so I put him at some weak player list and remain looking at him.

- Ythill did very badly in the vis a vis, but from outside things are nicer and he is going down.

- andycyca was lurking a bit but his participation after Cass shaking has been ok. Of course, I have an eye on everyone, but his activity is ok.

Couple of persons are opering my eyes a bit, but Ill go on looking a bit before expressing opinions...

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

Do not get confounded. I simplified the "essence" of your 5 points in order not to quote them completely. Of course I read them very largely and I answered them properly with my views on them, that I consider wrong-based, as Goat participation has been quite useful. Notice how many people is discussing on jahudo and habitang, which does not mean we are tunnel visioned by goat in any sense, but sharing information in a townie way in my opinion.

You was too simple. You manipulated my points and turned them into something I don't approve of. You cannot defend a case that way.

Which manipulations ? I just described the essence of each of your points to give my opinion on them. My critiques on you were based on the possibility (not certainty) of you trying to please Cass and me in your suspects list..

By the way, if you consider Simenon scummy but yourself townie, how do you interpret simenon participation to defend tpt when a big wagon was over you ??

People were starting to suspect Goat for not participating, so he might have wanted to suddenly participate more, and you know that scum are paranoid.

I do not agree with this point. Not many suspicions over him. If he was scum and he is so expert as you claim he is, he wouldnt have written a long post on his suspects and build a case on someone. Instead he would have started to participate a bit more...

But what he did is consistent with the interpretation I gave in previous post. So my view remains...

(about goat and tunnelvision)
So basically, if you do something scummy and admit it, it's alright? That's really not a valid argument imo.

??
I said he didnt anything scummy. It is you who thinks so. I said that goat and tunnel vision was not a scum hidding issue, but more an open discussion...and that his case on jahudo is open to scrutiny and debate with ythill, jahudo, habitang, cass and myself...and this debate is not tunnel visioned as many views are present. So goat is not forcing any tunnel visioned view about jahudo...and therefore i dont consider his action and comments suspicious at all...

Not a scumtell, but it means he's experienced so you can be damn sure he knows what he does.

I am "damn" sure. Why do you want me to be so "damn" sure about that ?
Yes, he knows what he does. He is an expert player. Perfect, I read his suspicions with detail and I comment them. Precisely much more than Habitang ones, precisely because Im damn sure that jahudo knows what he does...so i looked much more carefully at jahudo after his comments, much more than with habitang ones...

The fact that he knows what he does and he is an expert player has nothing to do with him being scummy...so i mantain my view...

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

He is far away from being the king of lurkers in this game. I have 2 or 3 persons clearly up in lurkers list, and he is not one of them. I guess it is not needed to go on a full description of his activity in the game for seeing that...

How does this clear him in any way? The fact that there are two real lurkers only makes it easier for him to slide under the radar by posting only a little bit more than them. You are only reinforcing my point here.

first, Im not clearing him. For me trying to clear him, first I would need to see a case on him. And you were not building a case as you used no quote or analysis of his posts, but simply launched generic impressions to the air. Impressions that I founded quite incorrect.

second, about the lurkers. Precisely you described very well, "slide under the radar by posting only a little bit more than them". This is what i said before, if he would be scummy and panicked a bit, he would have started to write a little bit more than some others. But no, he gave openly his suspects and build a consistent case on one of them. For me, that was townie...

[Goatrevolt]

@Goatrevolt: Please jump in and reply to my case, and how nureins handles it.

Doing so at the moment.

The fact that you were very active as scum doesn't mean that you can lurk and look town, it's not simple like that.

I never implied that my lowered activity (lurking, if you must) is pro-town. I simply said that you took a game where I was scum and active, and then showed me playing differently this game and said it was a scum tell, which is completely off base. If you're going to use metagaming as a basis behind your case, you need to actually show a situation where it applies. If you look through the four games I've completed on this site, I think you'll find that I was one of the most active posters in all 4 games, 2 as scum and 2 as town. I don't see why my lowered activity is at all indicative of me being scum. I'll say it again, I've been very busy in real life and do not have the time to dedicate to mafia which has significantly reduced my presence in my games across the board. If your only point against me is that I've been less active, then I will say I don't think you have a strong case. If there is more I'll address it while I'm reading through right now.

[Goatrevolt]

Now, some more on Goatrevolt. Up until about page 14, he was very passive. Then came the case on Jahudo. A subtle, but sudden change of playing style, which I perceive as a scum tell. This case was certainly well-thought out, but the thing is, I question the usefulness of such a PBPA in itself. There are several flaws with it.

My change in playstyle was not subtle at all. I didn't gradually sneak my way back in the game, but came back with a case on my top suspect and a list of suspects.

You're going to have to explain how this is a scum tell at all. I fell behind in the game, and then reread and listed out my top suspect to try to get back in the swing of things. Can you give me a scenario where I could have gotten back into the game in a non-scummy manner?

1. It rips the posts out of context, at least if you use the method of only showing posts by one user. And even if you don't, you tend to merely glance over the other posts.

I don't find PBPA's generally that effective. I'll use them from time to time, but when you show every single post someone makes it dilutes the point you're getting across. So many of a player's posts are null tells, and by showing them all, you really weaken your case. So when I build a case, I point out what I find scummy about that player. That doesn't involve every single post they make, nor should it in my opinion.

I don't think I took anything out of context. I believe Jahudo would have corrected me if I did, and I don't recall him making such an accusation.

2. Tunnel vision. You see the player who you are analyzing in the light of what you are trying to prove. I could go fancy by calling a famous psychiatrist's name who did some research of that effect, although I don't see how that would benefit the town. Anyway, you pick out the scumtells, and as they are also out of context they get magnified.

Other way around. I try to prove what I see about the character. I saw actions that to me suggested Jahudo being scum. I went about trying to prove that to the rest of the game, which is the point of case building. You're trying to suggest that I pick some random thing and then try to find someone I can build a case around to fit that random thing. Instead, I find a player who I think is scummy, and then I try to neatly organize my reasons for believing that they are scum so others can agree/disagree.

Goatrevolt is a skilled player. Firstly, he has the ability to make the PBPA so that it looks (and, to some extent, is) sophisticated, thought out well and not just thrown together. This could be perceived as pro-town. Secondly, he knows that he has to add some pro-town bits (with that I mean something like: '#x - good post, town tell'), and he did.

This paragraph is entirely from your already predetermined perspective that I'm scum. Here is the gist of your statement: "Goatrevolt's PBPA looks pro-town, but it's just him as scum looking like he's town." Do you see the issue with that? You've failed to suggest why I'm scum and have instead assumed as such and are now trying to rectify that stance with things that seem pro-town with my play.

Fact remains is that such a pbpa is not really solid evidence. Scum could pick out some scumtells that a towny did, town could magnify minor scumtells of a towny, or the same with a mafia-aligned player. What I mean to say is that Goat's PBPA (two of 'em, actually) is not a town-tell at all. Combined with his change of play, it's a scum tell.

Again you fail to show why I'm scum, instead you are trying to show how my actions could possibly work

IF

I was scum. What constitutes solid evidence? How does a townie push a case on scum? You keep suggesting that I'm scum and I'm pulling Jahudo's posts out of context and magnifying scum tells to make him seem like scum. What about the scenario you've completely ignored about me being town and bringing to the spotlight scummy actions that were overlooked.

Sirdan, I want you to tell me exactly how a townie plays. How does a townie get scum lynched? There must be some secret technique they use that doesn't involve making a case on them, because apparently me making a case is a scum tell.

As for the change of play aspect, I addressed that earlier. You need to show me how a townie is supposed to catch back up in a game they fall behind in, because obviously I did it incorrectly.

And Goatrevolt also knows how to lurk at times, in the beginning of the game this had real life reasons, but now it really just seems that he only participates when it would be advantageous to him, whereas a towny player would continuously contribute in order to help the town as a whole and to find scum.

First of all, that's not true, unless you think every single lurker in this game is scum. One of them is likely a player who is not continuously contributing but still town. As for your accusation that I only participate when advantageous, you need to prove that statement.

Overall, your case on me boils down to two things. I made a case on Jahudo, and it's possible that I made that case as scum trying to push suspicion on a town player. This ignores the alternative that I'm town trying to push suspicion on a player I find scummy. You have yet to prove why one scenario is more likely than the other.

Secondly, that I've been less active. This differs from my normal play as both town and scum, and I've mentioned that I'm really busy in real life as an explanation why. My activity level has decreased in every game I'm in. You need to show why exactly this suggests I'm scum, rather than just say that I'm not contributing to every little thing and calling it a scum tell. Despite my low post count, I believe I've weighed in on almost every discussion of consequence this entire game (TPT, Simenon, Nureins/Ythill, Habitang) and also pushed a case on the person I considered most likely to be scum.

[Goatrevolt]

1. Passive play, not what I'm used to see of Goatrevolt, so this is scummy in itself. You didn't include that in your summary.

Wrong. You've seen me play once as scum where I was active. You've yet to prove that passive play = scum for me.

2. Change of play style to being less passive, although his new playing style is less scummy, the change in itself is a scum tell. A towny wouldn't do that, in my opinion.

A townie would continue to lurk and not catch up in the game?

3. Nureins, you're completely wrong on the other points. I am not saying

Goatrevolt

is tunnel visioned, I am saying that the

method

Goatrevolt used is tunnel visioned in itself, and that Goatrevolt is experienced enough to know that and perhaps abuse it if he's scum.

When I build a case on someone, I focus on that player. Why is that, you may ask? Ah, yes, it's because I think they are scum. What would you like me to do, say "I think Jahudo is scum, but rather than build a case on him I'm just going to keep looking around at everyone."

That last statement is again assuming I'm scum and that I'm abusing my "experience" to nail a townie. The problem again is that you assume I'm scum, but do not prove why, and then after you assume I'm scum try to show how my actions make sense from that conception.

Look through all my games. I use similar case building methods as both town and scum. I've found it to be effective in nailing scum and getting the town on board with their lynch. When I build a case on a player, my goal as the case builder is to suggest to the rest of the town how I find that player scum. I do so by pointing out where they've said things that I find scummy.

4. Sophistication is not a scum tell, it's there to prove that Goatrevolt is a skilled and experienced player, so things perceived as town tells by you are not necessarily just that.

Because I've done well at playing scum doesn't mean that I am scum, or that any townie actions I do are scum tells. Your case against me seems to be much of "Goatrevolt is good at playing scum, so his town tells are just him acting town as scum." Do you think I act like scum as town? In other words, you've ignored the other explanation, which is that I'm acting like town as town.

5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

You need to back this up with concrete evidence.

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons. A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon. The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

There were some valid points against Simenon. Besides, obvious teaming up like that is rarely the way scum play. Habits 455 also makes a good point.

@Nureins: I would very much prefer if you didn't defend other players before giving them a chance to defend themselves. The way people react and reply to cases built against them is useful information. By answering for them, you provide them with opportunities to just recycle what you say and rob the town of that information.

[nureins]

@Nureins: I would very much prefer if you didn't defend other players before giving them a chance to defend themselves. The way people react and reply to cases built against them is useful information. By answering for them, you provide them with opportunities to just recycle what you say and rob the town of that information.

Notice that Silardinot's case on you was for me not a case, but a way to please Cass and me (together with the fos to simenon). So I didnt consider a serious case at all as my points were pretty consistent, my view on you quite solid and my interest more focused on seeing his reaction to my answers and making a vis a vis with him. Maybe I lost something in an spontaneous answer by yourself, but as I said, my view and points were pretty clear and you have only confirmed this view with your words.

When I did the same with your case on jahudo maybe you were right and i should have waited for him to give an answer. But notice also that I do not agree with jahudo on habitang's case, so I was also interested on how jahudo reacted to the existence of an intermediate position in between his attack to habitang (habitang scumness, lets say) and your view on his attack (that was a scum tell attack, lets say).

But since other players build their cases with the intention of listening the answer of those who they attack, i mostly agree with you and Ill try to give my opinion or check my intuitions/views after a first large response is given by the main person. Im sorry...

[Ythill]

Quick post before work...

I don't agree with any of the case against Goat and I believe it may be more damning as evidence against sirdan, though I'll have to see some more of his play before I decide if it's a reliable scumtell.

@Nureins: I would very much prefer if you didn't defend other players before giving them a chance to defend themselves.

100% QFT. I don't think defending another player is scummy, or even anti-town. But defending that player before he defends himself is certainly the latter.

Also, nuriens, just wanted to tell you that in English "going down on" is slang for "performing oral sex on." So when you keep repeating that I'm going down on your scum meter... well...

[nhat]

So when you keep repeating that I'm going down on your scum meter... well...

AHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!!! That made my day!

[sirdanilot]

Ugh... so many posts just within hours of my last one. I am not going to comment on both nureins and goatrevolt, not because I don't want to but because I don't have the time for that and it'll clutter up the topic, so expect a reply later on (probably on goatrevolt).

[sirdanilot]

Possibly some comments about goatrevolt's defense (I fail to see why he needed three long posts for that, but alas, that's a null tell) later on, but nureins first.

- TPT never stopped lurking, Tritch did nothing and I was waiting to have a vis a vis with the person replacing, which is you now...my view from outside was that he was scummy somehow, and now in the vis a vis, I dont like the way you have started.

Why? You didn't back up this opinion.

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

Do not get confounded. I simplified the "essence" of your 5 points in order not to quote them completely. Of course I read them very largely and I answered them properly with my views on them, that I consider wrong-based, as Goat participation has been quite useful. Notice how many people is discussing on jahudo and habitang, which does not mean we are tunnel visioned by goat in any sense, but sharing information in a townie way in my opinion.

"Essence"? That's one of those words I don't want to hear you say anyway. ugh.

You was too simple. You manipulated my points and turned them into something I don't approve of. You cannot defend a case that way.

Which manipulations ? I just described the essence of each of your points to give my opinion on them. My critiques on you were based on the possibility (not certainty) of you trying to please Cass and me in your suspects list..

"Essence" again. So basically you watered down my case and summarized it, which turned it into something completely different.
So you find me scummy because of the possibility that I have some greater plan to 'please' you? I think you're being hypocrite here.

[nureins]

Why? You didn't back up this opinion.

If you refer to TPT, I already described long ago. I didnt interpret his autovote as a irrational rushed townie. Especially due to his announced rationality (and I do not only refer to his autoclaim of rationality, but for instance about his announcement that he couldnt be metagamed here in mafiascum and related stuff)

If you refer to yourself, I also backed up. I described the please of your voters, Cass and me, by defending jahudo (attacking goat) and fossing simenon...

So you find me scummy because of the possibility that I have some greater plan to 'please' you? I think you're being hypocrite here.

A extreme simplification for someone who asks for not simplifying (curiously, I wrote a much more elaborated post and description of the issues involved). Obviously, your reasoning is completely biased. I was voting you because you started your read and posting...you cant avoid you have a past in which you didnt participate.

By the way, you avoided the main points about TPT and simenon I asked you in the previous post...

[nureins]

Because is BEFORE in the previous post. Sorry...