Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Andycyca]

OMG SIM IS VOTING ME, OBVSCUM

Vote: Simenon

Nice to see you again, Ythill. Also, hi to everyone else, I recall this is my first game with any one of you.

[Andycyca]

@ nureins: Never joke-voted, never will. I'll vote soon enough, and it will be with purpose.

But thanks for asking.

Who's joke voting? I'm taking my vote seriously.

[Andycyca]

Fos: Jahudo

because he seems to be tryign to take it to the next level.

Because he's trying to do actual discussion?

Unvote, Vote: Ythill

Okay, so it isn't that safe.

OMGUS is, simply put, voting for someone just because he voted you (or, more generally, voting moved by someone else's vote on you)

Please explain to me how this is NOT OMGUS

Oh, P.S.

Unvote, Vote: The Pope's Tiara

I can do this right? Since you all seem to hate me and are obviously so much better at this game then I, you might as well lynch me first.

Wrong. There's no need to selfvote so early in the game for any faction. Why would you do that? (not a sarcastic question). If you're worried that people might mislynch you, stop playing this game. If, OTOH you want to cooperate with the Town, please unvote and continue discussing.

1. Ythill QUICK vote after saying he doesnt like random-joke votes...
2. pope INSISTING on you so much
3. tpt voting back to Ythill in an OMGUS way
4. They playing to vote each other to DISTANCE in a semi-random phase...

1. I don't agree with this. I've seen Ythill's play and this isn't quick or random. Pure meta here.
2. Insisting? Not that much to me, but not relevant anyway
3. Agree
4. Semi-random? What's that? Either we're in random or not (PS the answer is "we're not")

@nureins: your location says Spain. Are you spanish?

Unvote discussion has kicked off properly. More tomorrow.

[Andycyca]

also, @everyone: I'm starting school, so I'll only log in once a day if I can (always respecting the deadlines, obv)

[Andycyca]

I've read it all and will answer.

[Andycyca]

Answer to 93:

Part 1: How is it OMGUS? Who says that I haven't been psycho-analyzing all of you? Meta-gaming each person in this thread to build a gigantic spreadsheet of knowledge and a complete profile on each person. Collecting every bit of detail with internet dectivetry. Finding out how you work, think, act, and post whilst playing different parts. Who says I haven't figured out that Ythill is scum? And I think we know who the other scum is

It's OMGUS because you first complained about him voting you, then voting back.

I don't recall you psycho-analysing me.

Part 2: If I was worried about mislynching, why would I offer up myself like that. Maybe I was trying a new strategy that failed and brought about a lot of unvoting?

I've found in my short experience that questions of the type "Why would I..." lead to a lot of WIFOM. Please, don't question ME about YOUR motifs.

What does OTOH stand for?

On The Other Hand. Sorry, that one's not very common.

And why would I want to cooperate with the town? Oh, right, you're all so sure that I'm a townie now, right? Night hasn't passed. I haven't been investigated, yet. No one really knows for sure. Even then, what if I end up being a Godfather; undetectable to a cop? Or what if I'm a milller, and wrongfully thought of as being scum?

You'd cooperate with town because that' would turn you protown before everyone else. It's a great strategy for both scum and town.

Do you really know even close to enough to back up what you've said? Everything posted has pretty much just been built on speculation. An almost absurd amount of speculatory material is being used to make accusations.

I'm just a townie, I don't have anything more than these posts to back up my statements. Since I don't have any real information, I must use speculation (just as everyone else) We, the uninformed majority, won't have anything we know to be 100% true until D2.

You know how, if you've ever played Clue, and you're so sure of the murder weapon, and the murderer, but it could be one of two rooms? Another player gets that look in their eye like they know what's what and are going to go for the win next turn. You're stuck there in quite a quagmire, make a guess based on speculations or wait it out and hope for the best? That's where you guys are, making that guess as the mafia gets the glint in their eye.

And if you make the wrong guess, I will watch in delight as the house of cards comes tumbling down.

I don't play Clue. Mafia is SO much better I'm not perfect, I can make mistakes , but guess what? I'm not worried about that.

Shit

Mislynches happen

I guess my only question for you is, why so serious?

Why not? Sometimes I'm in the mood for sarcasm, sometimes I'm not.

[Andycyca]

You haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it. The excuse 'short posts are good' will not convince me.

That's pure crap. You can't seriously be accusing me of crimes I haven't committed, but will. That's plain silly.

Now it is decided.

Vote:Simenon

Who is accusing you of backtracking now or in future? Your posts in which you try to sell the idea that Cass and Me were accusing you of things like backtracking are crap...your insistance is for me very scummish...

The accusation is right there. Where it says: "you haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it". You might argue saying that cass' quote is just a stylish FoS, but why say it? everyone should be looking at everyone's behavior, there's no need to say it again.

"Defending yourself, are you, scum? HAH! Overdefensive!"
I did once actually think this was a valid argument back when I first started playing, until I played as scum and realized just how easy it was to lynch townies with the "Attack them, then when they defend themselves call them overdefensive" trap.

(where's that quote from, Sim?)

Good townies are not afraid to be wrong and, especially since English is not your first language, I'd think you understand the power of qualifiers to make a statement ambivalent.

<3 that one, Ythill

3. FALSE. READ MY POST. I WAS ANSWERING POSTS ONE BY ONE. IF I WERE SCUM I WOULDNT USE SUCH RIDICULOUS STRATEGY TO HIDE A VOTE, DONT U THINK ?
But obviously, you havent read my posts very carefully, just you jumped over me the same way you jumped when I mentioned you the first time...too many quick votes for someone who is reluctant to cast votes in the beginning.

This is the same as with TPT. I don't see how that kind of questions help. Also, remember that random/non-random votes is not the same as voting speed.

Also, which quick votes are you referring to exactly?

OMGUS vote

Admitting to OMGUS is one of the most antitown attitudes.

Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...

Lots?

I'm not against pressure wagons, but I want to know:

@nureins: if you wanted to see a pressure wagon on me, why didn't you vote (I'm not within quicklynch, I hope)?

@Cass: I'm OK with the pressurevote, but to answer anything, I need some questions first. Do you have any? is pressure your only reason to vote me?

[Andycyca]

"Surface level"? I'm sorry, I can't give deep comments on senseless issues (those arguments with Sim). I can only give a POV on that. Here's an example:

THE agent of scum is silence. If you play the game without words, then lynching is probabilistic. The more information you have, the better for town. Now, if you want to add Chaos as a malign agent, that is ok, but it is AN agent, not THE agent.

I just want to add that I disagree with this.

Now, for some more:

What do you get from the Simenon / Nureins fight? And from my fight with Sim? And from habitang's response to all of it? Who is scummiest in all that? Who is buddying / distancing with whom?
How do you feel about TPT's behaviour?

Sim/nureins: I mostly agree with Sim here. However, there's a lot of noise in those arguments (some were about semantics!). However, since they've both spoke their mind, they get Town points based on that. (More on each one's behavior later)

Cass/Sim? Now that nureins explained that bit about the backtracking to me, I'll rest my case for now, however, I found that "backtracking" issue a little bit suspicious (I never saw anything particularly bad with Sim's attitude/answers to IGMEOY him)

Habitang? Pretty much null so far. Will read an habitang-only after I get done with Sim and nureins.

scummiest? That selfvote was antitown to me. Those "backtracking" comments were suspicious to me. I don't see any buddy/distance yet (either that or the arguments with Sim were a feeble attempt to do so, which I highly doubt, because some of those were about the game and not about THIS game)

TPT? I don't like that much sarcasm in a mafia game (outside, I'm cool with it, though). T hat "I'm not a newbie" argument was worthless as well. My guess? He says he's got outside experience, which would accord to the fact that he didn't knew our common acronyms and acts sarcastic: right now I read him as an annoyed player, mostly null. I don't support his lynch right now, though.

Nurein .. Tries to take early leadership position in town by directing conversation, buddies up to players, seems interested in debating minutia that as others have said makes scum hunting harder

Wait, what? Is there any particular post(s) you're referring to? because so far I haven't seen that alleged "leadership" and the other gaming attitudes are protown IMHO. "Buddying" in D1 is a null-tell IMHO, because we don't know anything for certain, and defending certain attitudes will only be useful when we have some sort of info.

[Andycyca]

I think it's called Argument by repetition

Reading one-player threads

[Andycyca]

OK, after a thorough read on Sim I found nothing. Most of it it's his response to other people, most of those accusations being meta-game. Null.

[Andycyca]

Sorry to doublepost. I'm still reading more one-player threads BTW

[Andycyca]

And I'd appreciate everyone's opinion as to whether nuriens is more likely to be inexperienced scum or simply inexperienced.

What's the difference? (sorry if I don't follow, no sarcasm here)

[Andycyca]

sorry for not posting guys. Big exam tomorrow. Post after that.

[Andycyca]

No worries... it was poorly worded.

Basically, I'm wondering if people see nuriens' scummy behavior as null-n00b play. Or, more generally, I started to see that such is a possibility and I wanted others to weigh in on that topic.

After reading the nureins-only I find him a newbie. That theory about him being an experienced-player-but-first-time-scum doesn't make any sense. An experienced player would know a better approach to the game, both as scum and town (even more, if person X has been protown a long time, he knows how to think protown)

So what I propose is a no-lynch, or no-vote. Whatever it is. Let me see, 12 people. Night Kill x 1 by scum. NK x 1 by vigilante and we still have a ratio of 8:2 at best or 6:4 at worst.

Ugh, setup speculation AND a no lynch vote. I see no real basis for this. FoS. Why on earth did you bring this up? We weren't even talking about this.

[Andycyca]

I think you've misunderstood what I meant originally. I didn't suggest that nuriens was an experienced player but first-time scum. I believe it was he who claimed minimal experience at one point, though I don't have time to look back at the moment to verify it.

I just chose poor wording to ask whether people believed that his suspicious play stems from inexperience alone. And, for the record, I'd still like to hear more folks' answers to that.

You didn't suggest it. It was habitang back in 260 I wanted to see exactly how is habitang arriving to such conclusion.

Argh. I can see scum cheering at my stupidity. Yes I feel the heat of beign suspected by a lot of people. I can only ask that I be given benefit of the doubt, like really really give me benefit of the doubt.

Argh in a game like this, that is not a logical thing to request. But I am sick of being teh stupid player, I do try.

I will be useful to Town for as long as I live. Don't lynch me!

Yes I believe that was anotehr of my suicidal raves. Argh at my impatience. Argh that can't possibly be an excuse for scummy behaviour! Sorry eveyrone for me completely losing it again!

Honestly, can I redo with a clean slate? I wish I never posted anything now.

Not only am I going on a rave, I think that if I just let everything go, then maybe you will see me better.

Present emotion: OMGUS at lots of people! Especially myself. Argh. I want to vote Tritch to save my own ass but I think Tritch just lost it like a normal human being.
Also no1 seems to be suspecting Jahudo except me! Doesn't that say something about scum backing off? Read Jahudo's posts!!

please don't lynch me

Unvote. Vote: habitang

Building a fake defense (against nothing in particular)
Such defense based on feelings (no evidence)
Confirmed OMGUS attitude (antitown)

I still want to hear SOMETHING from tritch.

[Andycyca]

Confirmed OMGUS attitude (antitown)

He admitted to having OMGUS tendencies. What possibly self-serving reason would scum have to admit something anti-town like this? This screams to me as additional weak justification to hop aboard the wagon. "Well, he said his initial reaction was to want to OMGUS, and since OMGUS is a scum tell, I'll add it to the case."

Vote Andycyca

I need to catch up in other games, but I can certainly provide reasoning for my top 3 targets later on.

I'm not judging either town or scum reasons to admit OMGUSing. I just stated that OMGUS is never good for town. I don't FoS a lot and all I have is a vote. So, I see someone blatantly admiting an antitown attitude, I vote. End of story.

(I'm waiting for your reasoning if I'm one of those suspects)

I still feel worst about the lurkers in this game.

Just in case I have a different view on who the lurkers are...who are they ?

...and Andycyca, who seem to be lurking in plain sight.

Again, I would like you to present to me your proofs of my lurking. I don't have as much internet access as I'd like and I can't be logged in as much as the previous months. Everytime I'm around here I try to post something.

---------

About Cass... Given an "opportunistic vote" and a "opportunistic FoS" I find the FoS more suspicious, because it's less committal than a vote IMHO. However, I don't see that Cass' FoS as suspicious, mainly because the target isn't on any clear danger and the wagon (as well as the "case") has just begun. I'd worry a lot more if we had more info.

[Andycyca]

What's the scum motivation for admitting OMGUS tendencies, especially when it does precisely what it has done in this situation, which is draw unnecessary suspicion upon oneself.

Start a circular-logic cycle (probably a Too Townie setup). Wondering about the motivation behind X action leads to lots of WIFOM. The only way to answer that kind of questions is asking the source directly.

[Andycyca]

No time to post today. Sorry.

[Andycyca]

Sorry for the absence. Rereading from last post...

[Andycyca]

13: This is a good post. He gives an opinion on Nureins and I agree with it. I think it makes plenty of sense. He also throws a FoS on Habitang for suggesting no lynch. My question is why not a vote, and why did this not factor into his later reasons for voting habitang?

I FoS'ed habit because he came up with some setup speculation in a closed setup game, which is in itself suspicious. Then, we weren't even talking about it, so it's like throwing some bait-info waiting for us to take it.

Why not a vote? I don't find that post as scummy (or it's a pathetic scum attempt to redirect attention) Also, because nobody seemed to care to discuss such things.

I asked him why he started with this. Then, in 309 I asked how did he arrive to such conclusions. I don't recall him answering, so I can't add those to my case on him, unless you consider "for not answering questions" as a valid scum-tell (I prefer to use his answers/clarifications on the subject because I may be wrong and misunderstood him AND it gives us a little more info). If he refuses to answer chronically, I will list it as something more suspicious.

I don’t think I’m contradicting my suspicions by giving room for them to defend themselves. It’s just that I want to understand their posts = better and hear how they respond. I mentioned that I am inexperienced in this game, just my second game here, so if this playstyle is any bit awkward then I guess it’s because I’m still finding its disadvantages and advantages to this investigation style.

This is good.

-I’ve given my take on the coaching and lack of conviction you think I have. I don’t deny I’ve been doing something, but I would say I am sincere in getting reads through investigations and not hoping around my suspicions to see what will stick for a lynch.

This is nothing. We can't know for certain your POV on things.

I feel that some people saw only habit’s post 306 and ignored what he was doing up until that point. 306 was an obvious reason to vote, and any scum would have been happy to see habit write it. So I don’t think it is out of the question that scum can give momentum to a post like 306 even in the first 2 votes.

Mass Question:
I'd like to know if anyone who voted, or would have voted, for habit agree/disagree with the points I made not relating to post 306 and if they recognized or overlooked these habits of habitang.

I overlooked 1, 3 and 5. 5 is very interesting as it shows a very inconsistent player, I'll look a little bit deeper there.

...I think would be more accurate: This is what I have found out about him. So yeh I'm going to be happy with a Jahudo or an Andycyca lynch. Who knows? Maybe Vig can take care of the other one.

I'm fine with people wanting a lynch, but you fail in providing reasons for my lynch.

The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...

What? "Would" twice in the same phrase seems too confusing to me

My best active player lynch up to now is Simenon.

Why exactly (not counting the amount of words he writes)?

[Andycyca]

Andycyca, a third party, is fluent in spanish and can vouch for the spanish that it is not hiding anything.

If you really really need it, I'm more than that. I'm a native Spanish speaker, but I don't think we really need it. Sorry fot my lack of posting, I only had time to start GTKAS before traveling this weekend. Will resume posting tomorrow.

(

outdoor tip: glasses aren't made to sit ON them. They have a nasty tendency to

break

)

[Andycyca]

OK I've got everything, but I can't trust my grammar in my present state (1 AM without caffeine) I'll proofread it tomorrow and post.

[Andycyca]

Andycyca-Jahudo seems like townie vs. townie to me.

I do need some clarification here because you've just gone and said both my top two suspects are Townie. I also havn't seen much of Jahudo and Andycyca attacks on each other for that to be described as vs.

I support this question.

@ Andycyca: I did give a reason for my vote on you before. You've been quite passive in accusing people and then you voted me. Which is reasonable too. It's not that you voted me, but how you changed behaviour so quickly from lurking to voting. Haha, I read somwhere else how someone desribed it as drive-by lurking.

That was because I got some unexpected spare time. I don't understand what does "drive-by lurking" mean.

I'm currently reading both nureins & Cass to see this alleged scumpair (I don't see it right now, but I don't trust my memory)

[Andycyca]

I tried to read through, but all that stuff is really confusing >_<.

Sorry, but I need help catching up (too many stuff). Why am I/habitang was being voted?
I'm confused with all that stuff. And, I also have language problems (spanish-speaker, not good at english )

Yay! I think there are only 3 spanish speakers in Mafiascum.net. All 3 of them are in the same game!

As for the reasons for voting habit... Overall antitown attitude (I'll link to you in a moment)

[Andycyca]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 91#1206191

There.

[Andycyca]

Unvote

A lot has happened, a skim reading says it's on sirdan, let me see (again)

[Andycyca]

Damn, I can't keep up with school and Mafia. No games for a while.

Mod: I request replacement

I can help you looking for one, if you want.

I'm very sorry guys.