Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Simenon]

You put the word analysis in quotations, but I never used that word.

Why?

Those aren't quotation marks, they're irony marks. It was an analysis, but I dont consider it worthy of that name, thus.

Do you believe it was meant to be taken as a serious analysis?

[Citizen Karne]

nuriens' posting strategy:
Make bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of repeating himself.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of not reading nurien's posts "all along" and of repeating himself.

I almost feel as though I no longer need to respond to nuriens, as Simenon as posted exactly what I feel.

nuriens, I find your posts very difficult to read for some reason.

[Andycyca]

Unvote

A lot has happened, a skim reading says it's on sirdan, let me see (again)

[Ectomancer]

Im serious. Vote Nureins. Clear the clutter.

[nhat]

I just can't take Ythill seriously when he just insists on referring to anyone he attacks as scum and just harps on them about it. If he has such good arguments, then why resort to petty name-calling? And he's been doing it all game. He's pushing way too hard in this case.

Unvote
Vote - Ythill

[nureins]

Simenon, Ecto, Citizen and nhat. This makes four which means some are town...

Are ythill and me losing something?

However, Im not gonna be satisfied with unreasoned posts. In my other game Im facing the same situation and almost about to lynch a scum who is playing just posting

- this is town
- this is scum
- tunnelvision
- repeating posts
- i agree

blablabla...

It is very simple to criticize the playstyle, the words and the efforts of players who are writting dozen of posts, just because your style (the one of the four of you, look and read it if you are so obsessed with tunnel vision) is concise and direct...

Now ill read delighted your opinions on sirdan...this will make my decision much more reflected...

[nhat]

Simenon, Ecto, Citizen and nhat. This makes four which means some are town...

Are ythill and me losing something?

However, Im not gonna be satisfied with unreasoned posts. In my other game Im facing the same situation and almost about to lynch a scum who is playing just posting

- this is town
- this is scum
- tunnelvision
- repeating posts
- i agree

blablabla...

It is very simple to criticize the playstyle, the words and the efforts of players who are writting dozen of posts, just because your style (the one of the four of you, look and read it if you are so obsessed with tunnel vision) is concise and direct...

Now ill read delighted your opinions on sirdan...this will make my decision much more reflected...

There is a difference between well reasoned posts and rambling. I know you think this is unbelievable, but posts CAN be well reasoned without being so long.

Let me point this out to you, because this has been a long time coming. Talking at length doesn't mean you have a good grasp of english. Using big words doesn't mean that you can communicate in english well. I'm an ESL teacher. I know people who think they are the cat's ass because their vocabulary is extensive, but in truth their communication skills are terrible and I want to smack the taste out of their mouths for being so smug.

You think too highly of your language skills. Step back and think about what you write because there are many players who don't understand what the HELL you are talking about 70% of the time.

Furthermore, why are you buddying up with Ythill? I'm sure he'll be thrilled about that

[nureins]

Let me point this out to you, because this has been a long time coming. Talking at length doesn't mean you have a good grasp of english.

I agree. Are there doubts about my case on Sirdan?
Simplifying:

- Lurking and no-frustrated autovote (corroborated by his signals of rationality). TPT

- Fake cases (widely discussed about Goat by myself. Ythill has discussed about Simenon). I suggested a reason for these fake cases.

- overreaction to my critique on his cases. Where is the manipulation he suggests? My description of his Goat case is fair and decent.

- Backtracking about Goat case. He tries to say everything was a manipulation or a misunderstanding, that he has not a case, or things like that.

- As a limit situation of the backtracking on Goat, absence of scumhunting after 20 pages of debate (corroborated by his own words, where he claims the major scumtell he has found in the game is about ythill's by-passing comment).

- Poor reading of the whole game (corroborated for his bad claim that Ythill is attacking him in a novel extreme way).

Furthermore, why are you buddying up with Ythill? I'm sure he'll be thrilled about that

Im not buddying up with ythill. Ythill joined the bandwagon.
But he came with new views which are consistent and solid, so I dont think he is buddying up or pursuing a bad lynch as scum. I dont like his attacking way, but surely I prefer his way to reasoned posts in which reasons are not posted (not to call them unreasoned posts).

At least I can take his posts, eliminate the scum-stuff and his aggressive manners, his provocations and tests, etc, and something remains. And what remains is interesting in the case of Sirdan. Nobody has defended sirdan yet with a serious argument. And he has only two votes, im not lynching him and ythill, even if he calls him scum all the time, cannot do it by himself alone.

[nureins]

I almost feel as though I no longer need to respond to nuriens, as Simenon as posted exactly what I feel.

nuriens, I find your posts very difficult to read for some reason.

As far as I remember, this was not at all the reason of your vote...

[Simenon]

I just can't take Ythill seriously when he just insists on referring to anyone he attacks as scum and just harps on them about it.

How else?

On another note, I'm very happy where my vote is.

[Erratus Apathos]

Vote Count

sirdanilot: (2) nureins, Ythill
nureins: (2) Citizen Karne, Ectomancer
Ythill: (2) sirdanilot, nhat
pacman281292: (1) Simenon
Jahudo: (1) Goatrevolt
Andycyca: (1) pacman281292
Citizen Karne: (1) Cass

Not voting: Jahudo, Andycyca

Goatrevolt has been prodded.

[pacman281292]

nuriens' posting strategy:
Make bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of repeating himself.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument.
Accuse poster of contrary opinion of not reading nurien's posts "all along" and of repeating himself.

I almost feel as though I no longer need to respond to nuriens, as Simenon as posted exactly what I feel.

nuriens, I find your posts very difficult to read for some reason.

I don't know... maybe because he has the same problem I have (no-english speaker)?

I don't agree with neither Simenon nor Citizen Karne. Only posting it is not enough. Please justify all what you say.

Slight FoS: Citizen Karne, Simenon.

[Simenon]

Oh christ, "Slight FoS". What does that even mean? Should we do a "slight fos" count?

[Ythill]

LOL @ Sim.

Hey kids, no time for content today, probably not tomorrow either. Sorry... the usual Monday-Tuesday routine.

[Jahudo]

I almost feel as though I no longer need to respond to nuriens, as Simenon as posted exactly what I feel.

nuriens, I find your posts very difficult to read for some reason.

That’s interesting because the only times I recall you responding to nureins is side-tracking discussion into the Spanish language and not getting a real point across. Do you think that “Respond to contrary opinion by repeating the bad argument” is a fair summary of the nureins case on Simenon that you called out for having poor reasons? Do you think this is a scum tell?

Nureins may have a bad argument, then and now, but I’m more interested if he is

repeating

arguments without bringing anything new to the table? If yes is his repetitiveness the result of him not getting the point across? Refusal of the alternative argument? A conscious confusion maker?

Also could you explain the bolded part of post 453 and how it especially applies to that those players or that situation instead of any of the people who have two votes on them now?

nuriens, look at the way you and Cass teamed up against Simenon for very poor reasons.

A lot of what I see in those posts seems evident of a scumpair pushing a wagon.

The way Cass jumped off looked like she realized it was a lost cause and tried to get you to get off too.

That kinda highlights what I was wondering about since post 480, but still feel free to answer 480.

[sirdanilot]

mod: I'll be V/LA on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. It's maybe a bit early to tell you now but otherwise I may forget...

Jahudo: Since you have unvoted habitang in your 21st post in this thread (I got that from a one-player thread so I can't tell you the actual post number sorry, but that was around 15th August) you have not placed a vote or even a mere FoS on anyone yet, even not after your case on habitang. I was wondering why you aren't suspicious of anyone at all yet after such a long time? Who do you find the most suspicious and why?

[Goatrevolt]

I also don't see how it's helpful or pro-town for YThill to repeatedly declare that the player he's attacking is scum. It's an attempt to strengthen his argument by repetitious declaration and certainty in belief and just serves to frustrate and confuse others. I don't see what kind of useful reactions it would generate either.

I'm pretty 50/50 on sirdanilot, but whether or not he is scum, I still don't like the method of attack on him.

FoS Ythill

I'm going to review Citizen Karne and Sirdanilot.

[Cass]

I really don't see the scumminess of Sirdanilot, Ythill looks worse to me in this argument. But I think Karne would be the best lynch. I thought so a while ago and nothing happened to change my mind.

[pacman281292]

Oh christ, "Slight FoS". What does that even mean? Should we do a "slight fos" count?

Slight FoS=FomS

[Citizen Karne]

I really don't see the scumminess of Sirdanilot, Ythill looks worse to me in this argument. But I think Karne would be the best lynch. I thought so a while ago and nothing happened to change my mind.

I'm curious as to your reasoning here.

[Ythill]

How is that scummy, actually. Why can't you explain that by a townie who got a tad frustrated there and used a different word choice.

I've just seen scum do it more than town is all. I've seen a few really bad players do it as town, but you don't strike me as that bad of a player. Just scummy.

Do you say that you are only going to be pro-town as an exception to the rule?

Not quite. I say that I'm only going to repeat myself as an exception to the rule. There's enough people grumbling about long posts as it is. They can read the evidence I've already posted, and so can you.

I made one argument where I accidentally assumed his alignment, and I was wrong when I did it.

Well... see... at first you were saying that you didn't make any. And I was saying that you'd made a few. Now you're saying that you've only made one, while I'm still saying that you've made a few. So your story is changing but mine isn't. Interesting.

(1) Bolded part is an attack on me as a person. Sorry, but I don't tolerate that. (2) This is a game and my vocabulary doesn't matter at all in this game.

(3) And again you didn't reply to the point itself.

(1) My apologies. I was using in-game examples (inane, asinine, essence) to demonstrate how facts trump opinions. Didn't intend to do more than rattle you and gain information... won't go there again. You have a great command of English for someone who speaks it as a second language.

(2) Correct, but someone

pretending

a poor vocabulary to sidestep arguments is

very

relevant. It seems to me, now, that your lack of understanding was honest, at least in those three cases.

(3) I've already replied to the point. I addressed (factually) why nuriens' summary wasn't underhanded, and so did he. I'm not going through it again.

Now... on to other matters...

[Ythill]

To my detractors:

I understand completely. It is a natural instinct to see an adversarial player as being a "bad guy." However, is it a scumtell?

Consider the playstyles of TheStatusQuo, Oman, and vollkan: players I try to emulate on purpose, because they are effective scumhunters.

Consider the fact that adopting this style puts me in the limelight, makes me more responsible than others for a particular lynch, and sometimes rubs people the wrong way. Is it a safe play for scum? WIFOM says it can be, but only if I also do it as town, which makes it a null tell.

Consider who my targets have been. People favored for the noose by others? People at L-2 or L-3 where such a bold move might at least win a mislynch for my supposed mob? Not exactly. Every one of my attacks has started because of play that suggested an anti-town alignment, regardless of what others thought at the time. Every one of my reads has progressed based on new evidence that arises, irrespective of others' votes.

I also don't see how it's helpful or pro-town for YThill to repeatedly declare that the player he's attacking is scum.

Your lack of understanding has nothing to do with my alignment. The question is, can you see how it is helpful for anti-town Ythill?

It's an attempt to strengthen his argument by repetitious declaration and certainty in belief...

You are correct. See, I'm pretty sure sirdan is scum (I've said why) and I would like people to help me lynch him. Isn't it pro-town to try to lynch scum?

...and just serves to frustrate and confuse others.

Is it the attack-style, or the defense-style? I said that sirdan's case on you was contrived. Do you disagree? I said that his case on you was more detailed and reasonable (prima facie) that that on Sim, yet his FoS was on Sim, not you. Don't you find that odd as well? Etc.

Now I'm still saying those same things while adding "scum" to sirdan's name. I argue that it isn't confusing at all. You may find it frustrating, but that's a matter of personal taste.

[Jahudo]

Consider the playstyles of TheStatusQuo, Oman, and vollkan: players I try to emulate on purpose, because they are effective scumhunters.

Don’t know anything about their playstyles but I can imagine what makes up an “adversarial player” as you say. I’m sure it’s also effective for scum trying to look like effective scumhunters, but if you’re town and this kind of badgering pressure can get good reveals then it should be helpful in later days.

I'm curious as to your reasoning here.

Still waiting for some kind of response. You are still voting nureins. Did Simenon fully summarize nureins attacks on sirdanilot? What do you think of what sirdan offered nuriens?

I was wondering why you aren't suspicious of anyone at all yet after such a long time? Who do you find the most suspicious and why?

Citizen Karne looks pretty scummy to me right now, but that is partially his avoidance to my questions for the past two weeks. It looks too easy for him to agree at face value with Simenon’s summary of nureins “Respond to contrary opinion by repeating bad argument…” and not saying anything himself, especially since he is voting for him.

For now though,

FoS: Citizen Karne

[Cass]

I really don't see the scumminess of Sirdanilot, Ythill looks worse to me in this argument. But I think Karne would be the best lynch. I thought so a while ago and nothing happened to change my mind.

I'm curious as to your reasoning here.

I posted my case on you 1,5 weeks ago (august 25, my post 37 if you look at them in isolation). You have not responded to it, nor have you done anything else to change my mind since then.

[Goatrevolt]

I also don't see how it's helpful or pro-town for YThill to repeatedly declare that the player he's attacking is scum.

Your lack of understanding has nothing to do with my alignment. The question is, can you see how it is helpful for anti-town Ythill?

Yes, I can. Doing something like this can be used to manufacture additional suspicion on someone that isn't real. Calling him scum repeatedly can boost your case by instilling that idea in player's minds, and making your case seem stronger than merely the actual points that comprise it. I can see this leading to a mislynch and furthermore one that doesn't necessarily implicate you as scum for the exact reasons you brought up.

Also, you dodged the initial question of "why is it helpful or pro-town."

It's an attempt to strengthen his argument by repetitious declaration and certainty in belief...

You are correct. See, I'm pretty sure sirdan is scum (I've said why) and I would like people to help me lynch him. Isn't it pro-town to try to lynch scum?

Yes, it is pro-town to try to lynch scum. Is it pro-town to try and lynch Ythill's target? That remains to be seen. Here is the issue: You're trying to make your case seem stronger than simply the points that make it up. Repitious declaration and certainty in belief do not make sirdanilot more likely to be scum. Nor are they meaningful whatsoever in determining whether or not he is scum. So rather than merely present your points against sirdan and why you think that makes him scum, by powering up your arguments in this manner you generate false suspicion on him.

...and just serves to frustrate and confuse others.

Is it the attack-style, or the defense-style? I said that sirdan's case on you was contrived. Do you disagree? I said that his case on you was more detailed and reasonable (prima facie) that that on Sim, yet his FoS was on Sim, not you. Don't you find that odd as well? Etc.

Now I'm still saying those same things while adding "scum" to sirdan's name. I argue that it isn't confusing at all. You may find it frustrating, but that's a matter of personal taste.

It adds unnecessary elements to your attack on sirdanilot, which certainly does create confusion. People question why you are so certain in your belief, and if there is something more to the case that they are missing to give you that impression. I'm personally not frustrated by it at all, I just don't find it pro-town or useful.

What exactly do you hope to accomplish by doing this and how does it aid in finding scum?

Finally, weren't you the one who expressed suspicion on my case on Jahudo because I didn't express enough doubt while presenting it? Aren't you doing the exact thing you grilled me about but to an even larger extent?