Mini Normal 2148 (Post Game)

[farside22]

Hun im not letting go of my vote on dunn till he explains his scum read on mala and why what she said was scummy when he thought the same thing.
If you continue to let him bypass that he will continue to do shit fucking all to explain

I can understand why you feel that way, but have you played with Dunnstral where he was town before? I know he does things like that sometimes which make him lynchbait as town. I remember two games, in fact, where he seemed like an easy mislynch in games where I was scum.

Yes. We played animal mafia. Day 1 he put a player to l-1 as his first post. He came out a bit more that same game day and put thoughts that made sense and i stopped scum reading him shortly after.
Im not seeing anything similar her. So i will just blame you if hes scum this game since your on a taggent that is completely different then my own thoughts.

[Jake The Wolfie]

Twas a dark and stormy night.. the

cult leader

stroked his beard, a smile plastered on his face. He was thinking evil thoughts, wicked thoughts. In his thinking, an

assassin

took him out. Or so the story goes..

Vote Count 1.11

Dunnstral (4):

DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, [notscience]

clidd (4):

Not_Mafia, Green Crayons, stungun0404, Malakittens

Green Crayons (2):

votato, clidd

notscience (1):

geraintm

geraintm (1):

bob3141

Not_Mafia (1):

Dunnstral

Not voting (0):

---

Mod Notes:

Majority is 7 players.

Day 1 has begun and will end in (expired on 2020-06-24 07:23:04).

clidd has been prodded, and has (expired on 2020-06-22 05:06:16) to respond before I find a replacement.

notscience is V/LA until Sunday, and has handed their vote to Malakittens.
Doctor Pepper is V/LA for (expired on 2020-06-21 10:29:00).
stungun0404 is V/LA until Monday.[/area]

[stungun0404]

OK. No discussion since earlier? How about a simpler version of my cases.

Ok, done.

I need 24 hours to work on my reads (I'll post tomorrow).

Lie. No follow through (which in this case is anti-town).

Taking a break

for an hour

. Starting to fall into scumthreaditious

Lie. No follow through. Took over a day only to state another reason, which might be genuine, but also notably allows him not to post any content to avoid a prod.

I'm sorry, but I'm not really motivated rn with this game (and I'm not white sure why).

I'll try to self-motivated myself tonight.

Might have

lied again, as he did not post at all after that during that night.

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

***

wrong thread

.

Lies. Tries to implicate me in case he flips, since he was the leading wagon.

[stungun0404]

They have all three lied. Lynch all liars. Lying about simple and clear intentions with no follow-through and lying to implicate me is what can be considered scummy here. Simple as that.

OTOH, Dunn has

not

made one single blatant lie in this game. You can ISO everything he has said to confirm that there is no blatant lie. That's the difference between town and scum I think in this particular game.

Not that the "lynch all liars" approach always works, but in this case I think it leads us to the correct solve.

[stungun0404]

I have not advocated for your lynch/actively pushed evidence for others to vote you since I switched to voting BM, whereas in your case you were actively stuck on voting BM while pushing evidence to support a Dunnstral lynch, which is highly inconsistent and only can encourage what was already the biggest wagon that has formed this day phase. Thus, those are two entirely different scenarios. How, then, are they the exact same thing?

You suspect both BM and GC, and switched from voting GC to BM. You obviously still suspect GC. Mala finds that suspicious.

I suspect both Dunn and BM, and switched from voting Dunn to BM. I obviously still suspect Dunn. stun finds that suspicious.

ToWn CaN sUsPeCt MuLtIpLe PeOpLe At ThE sAmE tImE.

Yeah, I guess the only reason I suspected you in this case was because Dunnstral was the leading wagon, whereas in my case neither BM nor GC have been leading wagons this day phase.

But your point is fair enough.

So why would you only suspect green due to dun being the leading wagon? I don't see why green actions regarding the dun wagon would really impact your desire to vote either way between them. As it's something that never really changed between your vote on green and your vote on BM.

So why in effect would you side with BM against green by voting green. If it was simply a matter of green finding a dun lynch acceptable. As for him to be scum at most half the dun wagon must at least be town. What made you think that green at the time was scum happy with both Bm and duns mislynch. Rather than green potential believing that both were good lynch candidates. As with something so little I would have expected you based on your claimed belief that there is one scum in green/BM. To first vote BM first but pressure green over his reasons.

Honestly, the only reason I suspected GC because of being scum due to his pushing of dun who was the leading wagon while voting BM was because I was very zeroed in on seeing GC scum at that point in time, although I am pretty sure now I was wrong. Since I have been thinking one of GC/BM is town and the other is scum, thinking that GC was scum at the time, I thought he was voting for a convenient BM lynch, while also pushing forward what I have been thinking is likely a town Dunnstral wagon all along. Thus, if I thought both of those were likely town at one point, it would make sense why I included those reasons in my case for suspecting Green.

Obviously, my view on BM has flipped, however and I very much am confident thinking Clidd/BM is the true scum in the two right now. I think I initially tunneled too hard on GC simply because of him seeming so similar to Mathblade!scum that it pinged me so hard in many ways.

[Dunnstral]

Hun im not letting go of my vote on dunn till he explains his scum read on mala and why what she said was scummy when he thought the same thing.
If you continue to let him bypass that he will continue to do shit fucking all to explain

I can understand why you feel that way, but have you played with Dunnstral where he was town before? I know he does things like that sometimes which make him lynchbait as town. I remember two games, in fact, where he seemed like an easy mislynch in games where I was scum.

Yes. We played animal mafia. Day 1 he put a player to l-1 as his first post. He came out a bit more that same game day and put thoughts that made sense and i stopped scum reading him shortly after.
Im not seeing anything similar her. So i will just blame you if hes scum this game since your on a taggent that is completely different then my own thoughts.

Hey guess what

All that came out at deadline when the entire rest of the town was failing to lynch anyone because I alone was inactive, and then I pulled out a lynch

Do I have to do the same thing here?

[Not_Mafia]

Dunn vote clidd

[HK 50]

I'm still not particularly into this game mentally. Since there is a case on me and some confusion about the stun gun post, I'll respond for the sake of trying to keep both trains going.

As for the dunn point that got cut off from the stungun post I made eariler: my point was the push on germ could be to divert attention from the dunn wagon which lines up with stun guns stance on the wagon. Stungun has been offering counter resistances to that wagon while voting occasionally there for noncommittal reasons like "pressure" when i skimmed forward through there ISO.

Anyways now to the case:

Next, a very short case on association from HK50's posts. HK has really not talked at all about either of Votato or BM in a scummy sense, but also doesn't really appear to be truly scumhunting in general. So that is something to keep an eye on.

Further, HK is on the counterwagon of Dunnstral, which could be seen as protecting a potential partner in Clidd/BM.

HK is only voting Dunnstral, per his 307 because "he agrees with what has been said about him." This is a lazy sheep vote. Does that seem like genuine scumhunting to you? Especially since he's voteparked there?

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from HK's posts

HK interestingly utilized my interactions with Votato against me to support cases that are a bit of a stretch about me being scum, in his 607.

Further, HK also conveniently flipped on his early town indication on me he expressed in 304, saying that he "felt better about me" because he thinks I used "bad townie logic." But then, suddenly in 607, in my interactions with Votato, he frames it so that he can make me look scummier AND concludes nothing negative on Votato, perhaps making his partner look better?

First off I have scum/town hunted. Example A: my handling of non science and malakitten. Example B (strong example): my progression on bob and the logic behind it. Example C: the doctor pepper pressure over my posting style.

Those are the only points that come to my head. Saying I havent scum hunted at all this game because I've been demoralized and havent been posting as much recently is a misrepstation in every way.

Yes I'm on the counterwagon. Yes I am voting dunn because I agree with what others have said. No, I havent quite saw anything to sway my opinion. This point is mostly preflip associations so there isnt much to debate here.

As for the spoilers info:

Point one: if we are playing the association game, how could it not be also an example of a HK 50/Germ. Team as well? You seemed to pull this just to loosely support the association point rather than actually having it be a fleshed out point.

Point two: What prevents me from switching my reads on any player? I didnt "conveniently flipped my read", I changed stances because I saw something scummy from you.

You also horribly misrepresented my town indications about you in 304. It wasnt about your bad logic that I town read you. It was the fact you were pressuring multiple slots naturally and forcing info out. The "bad logic" was referring to your fallacies in handling my posts, and was more expressing what I didnt like that what I did.

Spoiler: fallacy explanation

In both the posts you made about me early into day 1, you concluded with a statement that can be summed up as: "I as scum do X as well, therefore hk 50 could be scum"

This is two types of fallacies. First is a strawman fallacy as I can't refute your scum meta since it's your meta. This introduces no real counter play from a defense side since what am I going to disagree with? That you dont do X as scum?

The second one is the bigger issue though: Fallacy of Credibility. Your scum meta is simply not the textbook definition of how everyone plays scum. There are scum that goes balls to the wall and do ridiculous things because they can. To say I'm going to operate like your scum meta because its "the norm" displays a level of credibility to your arguement that simply isnt true.

Furthermore, if town!me sees it as your interaction being done to manipulate votato into voting germ., WHY would I say something negative about him? You imply that I should be saying that votato is scummy there and because I'm not it's a sign of association. That doesn't make sense with the context of 607.

[notscience]

Why aren’t you funny anymore

[HK 50]

OK. No discussion since earlier? How about a simpler version of my cases.

Ok, done.

I need 24 hours to work on my reads (I'll post tomorrow).

Lie. No follow through (which in this case is anti-town).

Taking a break

for an hour

. Starting to fall into scumthreaditious

Lie. No follow through. Took over a day only to state another reason, which might be genuine, but also notably allows him not to post any content to avoid a prod.

I'm sorry, but I'm not really motivated rn with this game (and I'm not white sure why).

I'll try to self-motivated myself tonight.

Might have

lied again, as he did not post at all after that during that night.

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

***

wrong thread

.

Lies. Tries to implicate me in case he flips, since he was the leading wagon.

Moreover,

With clidd, he hasn't posted at all and didnt respond to a prod. How do you know that him not following through is AI rather than being a victim of irl shenanigans? His lying is only ai if he comes back and has absolutley no reads to share.

With me, every post just felt scummy to me as I caught up. This happens to me from time to time and comes around typically when I'm not interested in playing. When I came back to the thread, I still felt this way and decided trying to make posts in that mindset was useless.

[HK 50]

Why aren’t you funny anymore

[Begging:]

My Philosophy chip is on! The millennium focused human humor version of me is esca-

Everything is fine. Beep boop beep.

[HK 50]

Funniness is a social construction of mankind. This sexy frame of durasteel need not endure your most hideous of ridicule of humanity.

When do you plan on launching the reconquering of your vote? I can make meow meow over there rehome tiger king style.

[stungun0404]

@HK: I like that you responded. The one alternative scenario right now where I can see you are town would mean to me a scum team of BM/Clidd-Votato-and Geraintm. Like, I really feel good enough about everyone else to assert that I feel fairly confident that all 4 scum are in those 4 folks, with BM and Votato being a super obvious pair. I can't see those two not being partners. Too much of a clear link to be coincidental.

It would be only after those 4 are lynched that I would want to see a potential Dunnstral/nm lynch.

I really want your response to this though:

@HK50, how do you feel about the alignments of Clidd and Votato? And why?

I will respond to the rest of your case either tomorrow or the following day.

[HK 50]

If I disregard my feelings about you, that team would have to imply that town has not had any scum pressure for the last few days it seems. Either:
That is the case and the team HAS to be that,

Scum is fine with the status quo and is not eager to move away and slash or are fine to bus a partner (dunn/clidd) potentially. Which I buy more for occ. Razor.

Votato I have an independent gut town read. The shenanigans by him like the wrong thread post are normal across both metas as a bad attempt at shitposting. I townread him mainly based on the progression of stuff like 650 (iirc that's the right post number) where he declares it is wishy washy to pressure farside. I think scumvotato would of gone around it differently then to discredit his own position in the thread. I also dont think there was much agency by him during yours and his interaction to find someone to scum read. His slow going nature points to town.

Clidd really has nothing AI. BM I dont really have a read on. I came to a realization that trying to use my meta knowledge about him is flawed due to his entrance and comparing it to the newbie game he referenced losing. I think there is a potential that he's playing against meta based on some inconsistencies from what his take away was that game to here and more importantly the remark "I just lost a town game where I did analysis wow!"

[HK 50]

I'll read the ISO more when I feel like it. I only glanced at the case if I'm honest.

It's also pretty late where I'm at.

wait I have to be funny

[stungun0404]

Scum is fine with the status quo and is not eager to move away and slash or are fine to bus a partner (dunn/clidd) potentially. Which I buy more for occ. Razor.

Will address everything else later, but this particular take can be seen, not necessarily in bussing fashion, but in early voteparking fashion from the two I suspect to be partners: BM/Clidd and Votato. Because it is easier to put this in bold, I have chosen to quote farside's unofficial vote count and not one the mod made here.

unofficial vote count:

votato

(3): Malakittens, bob3141,

Battle Mage

Dunnstral (5): DoctorPepper, farside22, HK 50, notscience, stungun0404

Battle Mage

(3): Not_Mafia,

votato

, Green Crayons
notscience (1): geraintm
Malakittens (1): Dunnstral
Not voting (0):

[Not_Mafia]

HK vote clidd

[stungun0404]

This vote situation appears tricky...

It's 4 vs. 4, and 3 more votes are needed to secure either lynch. The 2 sides seem pretty set overall. Off of the wagons, we have 2 of my scumspects I don't think will move (Clidd and Votato), and then Geraintm and Dunn who are on useless wagons right now.

This means that, ultimately, I feel either of our wagons can only trust bob right now to break the tie. But still, the leading wagon will need two more votes from there to lynch.

Thus, I feel like we're going to have to strike a deal between the two sides, then, or we might have trouble lynching. So, I tell you what:

@Farside, @Dr. Pepper, @NS

, since I trust you are all three town, would you guys be willing to potentially move over and lynch Clidd this day phase provided that I promise you that we lynch either Dunn or Votato next day phase?

@HK

, even though I am not set on you being town, I will extend this offer to you as well.

Now, the reason I include Votato there with Dunn is the obvious association that Votato has with BM that we will have to take into account when lynching tomorrow, provided a Clidd scumflip. If Clidd flukily flips town, we lynch Dunn, guaranteed tomorrow.

We do not currently have a clear second lead with a lynch of Dunnstral, but we do with a lynch of Clidd. Both myself and NM (and I feel like maybe someone else but I don't remember who?) have found the interactions between BM and Votato to be like that of scumpartners. Thus, we could have the best future results in this game if we are correct on a BM scum lynch today. Wouldn't it be best to knock that out now and not have both Votato and BM alive tomorrow to still deal with as a potential pair? I mean, we could potentially start this game off with back-to-back scum lynches!

And I promise you, I will willingly sacrifice Dunnstral tomorrow if it comes down to that. I very adamantly do not want him to go today though because I suspect he is town, and I do not want a town mislynch on D1.

[Dunnstral]

If Clidd flukily flips town, we lynch Dunn, guaranteed tomorrow.

nope

[stungun0404]

If Clidd flukily flips town, we lynch Dunn, guaranteed tomorrow.

nope

that townflip is not going to happen, I am that convinced, which is why I am willing to offer that.

[DoctorPepper]

Sorry mod, gonna need 24 more hours on that V/LA. Work has been killing me lately, apologies to the rest of the game

[Not_Mafia]

Please vote clidd before your V/LA

[bob3141]

Finally, from the BM/Clidd angle, which is long like the Votato one, but all but seals the deal on this scumteam for me.

Spoiler: Scumteam Case from BM's posts

First note: when the Votato wagon was a thing. Guess who was on the wagon? That's right! Battle Mage joined it 4th (after Mala/me/Bob) and did so with very weak reasoning in his 343, while HK remained on Dunnstral (the majority wagon with limited pushback). This holds true to the theory of scum having to distance on a possible majority wagon on a partner, but also having to join a wagon on a partner.

I am currently a few pages into reading, but would like to make a request. @HK50, I love your posting style -- so nothing against it -- but could you possibly use less sophisticated words to get your points across? I can understand what you are saying if I really spend time looking into your every post, but it is very hard to read some of your posts on the surface.

Another reason I ask this is because using a ton of more complicated words makes it more difficult than normal to read your intentions. This posting style could be extremely effective for scum to hide behind, because it is an easy way for them to blanket their intentions, because a lot more effort is needed than typical to truly ***ess their motives.

And if you are town, then it should make sense why this could become an issue. Because if people are having to spend too much time looking at a townplayer's posts to unpack their motives, it takes away from their focus of scumhunting, which absolutely could lead us down the wrong path in the long run.

Yep to me CG reads as town. I was a bit unsure on your vote change from CG to BM for a bit but it does look now like sew saw vote swing rather than flip flop. By sew saw i mean it feels like you were genuinely unsure as opposed to scum trying to first push green and then only moving when it failed.


As I myself was at first a bit suspicious of him too at first when he first pushed the claim that his push on bm caused the dun wagon to strength again. Rather than the leading wagon at the time. Which was vota at the time. While bm wagon was only green, not and vot. And neither nm or vota were really pushing that one strongly at all. Of the three only green was actually pushing a case.

But looking back I can sort of see what he is saying. As soon as he pushed bm over his vota vote dun did sort of pick up. And vota suddenly died in favour of dun.

At the time I thought my pressure vote had found something as my gut was telling me dun was likely town. So i found it interesting that as soon as vot was wagoned, the dun wagon gained new vigor.


I completely agree with this, his posts are pretty unreadable for me too because of the format. But I also think it's a very conspicuous posting style and a lot of effort for scum to keep up with minimal value, so slight townlean.

Like, if scum, why bother?

Battle Mage also sticks up for HK here. And is interestingly the first and only if I remember correctly to stick up for him there.

Votato votes are lazy. I bet one of y'all are scum.

Challenge accepted!

VOTE: Votato

I like the meta analysis by stungun, clearly nobody is getting behind Green Crayons, and I think I'm townleaning Dunnstral. And seriously, voting BM on Day 1? This dude has run out of ideas...

Here is the weak reason BM joined the Votato wagon: it was after interpreting my NAI meta analysis to be

AI

. That is a stretch. Is it because they are scum partners?

@Votato:

are you a pathetic *** scum?

A little harsh, but I did employ some artistic licence

On serious note,

Green Crayons queuing up Votato for some dodgy self-meta; 2 scum down?

BM sets up a GC link to Votato, interestingly, perhaps to mislynch later if Votato flips?

Does anyone have experience with scum Dunnstral? I have only played with town Dunnstral as scum to my recollection (2 times).

I know that as town he is not the hardest player to sort, but he still is a little bit tricky. He is easier to sort than nm for sure.

Also, he might get easier by the day, but he also might not. So I am not totally against a lynch there, but would just prefer to keep him in for two reasons. One is he is one of the few players I have experience with, so I might be able to read him better as the game progresses. And two, I do not really find what he has done so far to be super scummy, and if anything the push against him gives me a slight intuition he might be town. I could be wrong there, and I would like to see him post more, but I am not super suspicious.

I do think it is very likely, however, that if one Votato/Dunn is scum, the other is not, and should be ***umed to be town. I just don't see them as connected, as votato has made very little mention of Dunn in his posts and Dunn throwing votato out of the blue as a scum partner to someone... wouldn't seem like the smartest plan if they were scum partners? I mean, that's a little bold, drawing that much attention to you

and

your partner?

I've seen scum-Dunnstral once. He tried harder than this and seemed more engaged in a game where he replaced in maybe 60 pages deep - definitely feels town here. Agree with top half of your post, last para doesn't sound right to me. In my recent experience, scum often make little mention of their buddies to avoid ***ociations being drawn.

But lynching Vot-scum first is the play, and then decide whether to bite for his stungun 'slip'. Gut says probably not

.

He still is sheeping me on Votato because of my "meta analysis", but he again is the only one to throw out the possibility of Votato and me in fact being scum together, actually taking Votato's "slip" post somewhat seriously, which is so called a "slip" because of these posts from Votato:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the ***ociation you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong.

plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies

.

*** wrong thread.

Finally, the icing on the cake:

i have a little but i cant talk about it. by day 2 or 3 ill probably give some more details. as for the association you're drawing between me and dunn, stun, you're right that we aren't scumbuddies, but i dont think your reasons why are all that strong. plus the only reason you know that is cuz you and i are scumbuddies.

*** wrong thread.

Last time I saw something like this it flipped town, but what can ya do!?

He uses this scumslip for reason to townread Votato

I am convinced this is the scum team. I think we should lynch them consecutively.

Also note all three of Votato, BM and GC have weakly sheep-voted people, using players as shields.

Votato sheeping me immediately onto GC, BM very weakly sheeping me onto Votato, and HK weakly sheeping Farside and others onto Dunnstral without bringing any new evidence to the table regarding Dunnstral!scum.

Thus, it seems voting Clidd is the right move here.

[bob3141]

dont know what happened there.

[bob3141]

I have not advocated for your lynch/actively pushed evidence for others to vote you since I switched to voting BM, whereas in your case you were actively stuck on voting BM while pushing evidence to support a Dunnstral lynch, which is highly inconsistent and only can encourage what was already the biggest wagon that has formed this day phase. Thus, those are two entirely different scenarios. How, then, are they the exact same thing?

You suspect both BM and GC, and switched from voting GC to BM. You obviously still suspect GC. Mala finds that suspicious.

I suspect both Dunn and BM, and switched from voting Dunn to BM. I obviously still suspect Dunn. stun finds that suspicious.

ToWn CaN sUsPeCt MuLtIpLe PeOpLe At ThE sAmE tImE.

Yeah, I guess the only reason I suspected you in this case was because Dunnstral was the leading wagon, whereas in my case neither BM nor GC have been leading wagons this day phase.

But your point is fair enough.

So why would you only suspect green due to dun being the leading wagon? I don't see why green actions regarding the dun wagon would really impact your desire to vote either way between them. As it's something that never really changed between your vote on green and your vote on BM.

So why in effect would you side with BM against green by voting green. If it was simply a matter of green finding a dun lynch acceptable. As for him to be scum at most half the dun wagon must at least be town. What made you think that green at the time was scum happy with both Bm and duns mislynch. Rather than green potential believing that both were good lynch candidates. As with something so little I would have expected you based on your claimed belief that there is one scum in green/BM. To first vote BM first but pressure green over his reasons.

Honestly, the only reason I suspected GC because of being scum due to his pushing of dun who was the leading wagon while voting BM was because I was very zeroed in on seeing GC scum at that point in time, although I am pretty sure now I was wrong. Since I have been thinking one of GC/BM is town and the other is scum, thinking that GC was scum at the time, I thought he was voting for a convenient BM lynch, while also pushing forward what I have been thinking is likely a town Dunnstral wagon all along. Thus, if I thought both of those were likely town at one point, it would make sense why I included those reasons in my case for suspecting Green.

Obviously, my view on BM has flipped, however and I very much am confident thinking Clidd/BM is the true scum in the two right now. I think I initially tunneled too hard on GC simply because of him seeming so similar to Mathblade!scum that it pinged me so hard in many ways.

Yep to me CG reads as town. I was a bit unsure on your vote change from CG to BM for a bit but it does look now like sew saw vote swing rather than flip flop. By sew saw i mean it feels like you were genuinely unsure as opposed to scum trying to first push green and then only moving when it failed.


As I myself was at first a bit suspicious of him too at first when he first pushed the claim that his push on bm caused the dun wagon to strength again. Rather than the leading wagon at the time. Which was vota at the time. While bm wagon was only green, not and vot. And neither nm or vota were really pushing that one strongly at all. Of the three only green was actually pushing a case.

But looking back I can sort of see what he is saying. As soon as he pushed bm over his vota vote dun did sort of pick up. And vota suddenly died in favour of dun.

At the time I thought my pressure vote had found something as my gut was telling me dun was likely town. So i found it interesting that as soon as vot was wagoned, the dun wagon gained new vigor.