Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[charter]

Ok, the only things LG has done that you could consider productive is feebly push mine and Netlava's lynch, so from my point of view, he's done nothing to help the town.

And yes, I have found scum, this is the same as last game where everyone had found me, except now it's LG. Walnut is still very high up there and I'd gladly take a Walnut lynch if no one else votes LG. But if part of my case is bad, let me know and I'll clarify.

[Lord Gurgi]

Ok, the only things LG has done that you could consider productive is feebly push mine and Netlava's lynch, so from my point of view, he's done nothing to help the town.

And yes, I have found scum, this is the same as last game where everyone had found me, except now it's LG. Walnut is still very high up there and I'd gladly take a Walnut lynch if no one else votes LG. But if part of my case is bad, let me know and I'll clarify.

Building a case under the assumption that I am scum is a bad case. Building a case under no assumptions, then reaching a conclusion based on your findings is a good case. Yours is the former.

[Walnut]

At this point, even the most fevered scumhunters could be misleading us all.

QFT

On the LG case, in most instances changing your mind significantly over the space of two posts looks pretty dodgy. But going back and reading again, I see that post #175 by Netlava was called out by LG, Battousai and Macavenger in quick succession, so I don't see LG as being particularly suspicious in reacting as he did.

As for replacing Shadowgirl, while she has not been a very vocal player, I can't see that we would have saved much time by the time Mizzy found someone, they read it all and got up to posting speed.

[Mizzy]

Vote Count:

Farkshinsoup 3 (Thesp, Tinsley, Lord Gurgi)
Walnut 2 (Macavenger, CF Riot)
Lord Gurgi 2 (Farkshinsoup, charter)
charter 1 (Walnut)

Not Voting:

ShadowGirl, camn

10 Alive = 6 to lynch!

I am not going to replace ShadowGirl since she will be back in 4 days and as it was already pointed out, replacing her and then waiting for the new person to re-read the entire game seems like the same amount of wait, anyway.

Also, I understand that games can get a little heated but please be civil to each other? Consider this the warning; if I see anyone being rude or any personal attacks after this, that person will be forcibly replaced. Remember that these games should be fun! Thanks!

[Thesp]

My apologies for my absence lately - I'll post something significant tonight, please hold me to that.

[Tinsley]

I think charter summed up LG's play perfectly - opportunistic.

I'd be ok with either a Fark or LG lynch.

Camn - What players, if any, have you cleared and why?

[charter]

Tinsley, you're doing the exact same thing. You've said barely anything about LG, and now you're ok with his lynch? Did I just miss some of the posts where you were suspicious?

The only thing I see that's different between what you're doing and what he did to Netlava is that Netlava is definately a townie, and LG is most likely scum. But like I said with Fark, I'm not too interested in people's justification for voting Walnut or LG today.

[Tinsley]

charter - I have been suspicious of LG since the quick bandwagon formed on you on page 22. I even mentioned in post 597 that I thought Fark and LG could be scumbuddies. However, I'm starting to think it's one or the other, not both.

[Macavenger]

I seem to have injured something in my wrist such that using a computer is a bit difficult at the moment. Limited access for a few days while I'm trying to get that to heal up. May read along, but don't expect too much content from me for a bit.

[charter]

Tinsley, your last post says you don't think Fark and LG are scumbuddies, but your one before it says you'd be ok with a lynch of one or the other. Which is it? If you think it's just one of them is scum, which one?

[charter]

@Mac, hope you get better.

[CF Riot]

Camn I thought you said back on pages 23 and 24 that you didn't think Charter was scum anymore. Am I wrong?
----
Charter, I'm just not seeing it. I agree that everything you're saying about LG is true, but it's just that none of the things you're saying are very strong evidence. It's all very circumstantial. For instance, wouldn't anyone who's been called out (scum or town) start posting more frequently? I'm not saying I think LG is especially town, I just don't see any real reasons to see him as scum yet.
----
LG any answer for my question yet? Post 669 if you missed it.
----

I'm currently working on a large post about Walnut, which I may or may not finish tonight.

I read your post about hurting your wrist so if this post isn't done I understand it will take a while. However this promise was posted quite a while before you said you hurt yourself so I was wondering what happened to it. If nothing else, I'm anxious to see if you have any new thoughts on Walnut after you return.
----
I still don't see any suspect from today more deserving of a lynch than Walnut. Out of my 3 fav suspects he's the only one I'd vote for as of right now, so if anyone who doesn't think he's scum can get a better case than his out there I'm ready for it. We don't seem to be moving any one person towards a lynch.

[Lord Gurgi]

CF Riot: Read Post 660, it's there.

I'm going to wait for Thesp post.

[CF Riot]

You're saying the answer to a question I asked in 669 is in post number 660? WTF?? Anyways, no. I read your 3 suspects (in no particular order). My question is "Which of the 3 would be the best lynch today and why?"

[Lord Gurgi]

You're saying the answer to a question I asked in 669 is in post number 660? WTF?? Anyways, no. I read your 3 suspects (in no particular order). My question is "Which of the 3 would be the best lynch today and why?"

Pre-cognitive psychic, don-cha-know. Of the three, I would pick Fark, because the town won't lynch the other two.

[Thesp]

I'm just pointing out that since you've joined the game, you've been pointing fingers at myself and Fark without trying to build a case. If you're going to accuse Fark/farside for that reason, it's only right that we look at you for the same reason.

That's not why I'm suspicious of farside22/farkshinsoup.

What do you think of Lord Gurgi? You never responded to to my question about Walnut.

I don't think much of Lord Gurgi. I don't mind the pressure on him, but I'm not convinced he's scum. I wouldn't mind him dying. What was your question about Walnut?

Tinsley's turnaround on Farkshinsoup looks a little too fake to me.

After rereading everything Charter has done and without the biased thinking that Netlava was scum, I'm starting to think Charter is making a lot of mistakes and jumping the gun a lot, but he's doing so as town. He does some very

scummy

unhelpful/anti-town

things, but none of them seem to be working towards any sinister goal of mislynching someone or defending himself unjustly. And I noticed as I went through looking for scum tells, a lot of his cases are presented very poorly, but do make sense if you interpret them a bit.

I think this is absolutely correct (if you make the change I did in italics).

I think Fark decided he didn't quite have enough votes to lynch charter, so he decided to start a Tinsley bandwagon to appeal to Thesp. If he could get Thesp to vote with him, then he just needed two more non-scumbuddy votes.

Vote: Farkshinsoup

HA HA HA HA HA
diescumdie

I don't see Tinsley's fark vote as being any bad kind of OMGUS, and still have a mostly town read on him.

How?

I don't buy the whole "quit stalling, take a guess and vote for someone" approach.

How can you play mafia otherwise? Seriously?

That's the core of playing mafia - giving it your best guess and seeing what turns out. The more you do that, the more you get a feel for how people interact, and the better you get at doing it right. (Disclaimer: You will also sometimes get things horribly, horribly wrong. I still believe if you give it your best guess and run with it, you'll be right more than you'll be wrong.)

Ehh, I'm leaning towards Fark being horribly wrong in his assessment of things, but wrong as town now.

I'm moving up!

I liked this post.

Compare me to Thesp- he comes out and says something along the lines of "A, B and C are the scum- thanks for coming everyone" and everyone nods approvingly, while I am a pariah because I don't.

For what it's worth, that's how I begin every game I replace into. I'm right probably about 40%+ of the time when I'm town on my accusations. This number may be made up and may not comprise reality.

I am going to Unvote. I am going to keep watching and make a new assessment. Anybody have any objections?

Yes. Vote.

*reads LG/farkshinsoup row*

Tinsley, what do you think of Lord Gurgi?

*reads more*

I think at least two of LG/Fark/Walnut are scum.

Replace "Walnut" with "Tinsley", and I agree. I think I know which two as well.

I'd like to see a vote from camn.

Farkshinsoup, what's your current assessment of Tinsley?

[charter]

Charter, I'm just not seeing it. I agree that everything you're saying about LG is true, but it's just that none of the things you're saying are very strong evidence. It's all very circumstantial. For instance, wouldn't anyone who's been called out (scum or town) start posting more frequently? I'm not saying I think LG is especially town, I just don't see any real reasons to see him as scum yet.

He's now shown us he's capable of posting quite frequently, but why was he not when he wanted Netlava to be lynched?

[camn]

@ Tinsley... I don't like to talk about it! I always get my butt handed to me when I talk about who I think ISN'T scum
BUt I will say.. the more Thesp writes, the more I like him.


@CF It's true. Kind Of. But the more HE writes, the LESS I like him. YOu see I am very emotional. I have been thinking... Scum can play in a very unhelpful way, too! So he got back on my list.

@thesp. Me too. Later this week I will look at Fark and Tinsley. The Latter is starting to swim upwards on my list. I like what charter is doing with this line of questioning! Maybe he isn't so bad after all (charter, that is). I'm not feeling a Walnut lynch, though. And LG seems to be answering everything correctly! But I don't want to derail the inquisition...

I'll get too it. I am a big believer in Vote first, Ask Questions later.

In fact.....
I'll just put my money where my mouth is:

Vote Tinsley

Which is it? LG or Fark? Or both?
You can't say "they aren't both scum" and "kill them both" in the same breath.

Plus.. SOME scum stayed off the Netlava Wagon. They wouldn't ALL jump on, right?
Netlava is dead
Thesp I like right now
charter is STILL pushing walnut......

That leaves Mac and Tinsley, right?
Mac can't type, so he isn't good sport till later.
That leaves you, dude.

[CF Riot]

Ok, here's some good LG evidence. "Who's the best person to vote for?" "The easiest to lynch of course!" Not because he's the scummiest or because there's the case on him is the best.

Urgh. Camn just voted someone who wasn't even on the LoS she posted 1 page ago. I don't know how to digest this at all. I'm also bothered by the fact that your trend on Charter is: Scum+Vote -> Misguided town -> LoS #3 -> "Maybe not so bad!"

[Lord Gurgi]

Ok, here's some good LG evidence. "Who's the best person to vote for?" "The easiest to lynch of course!" Not because he's the scummiest or because there's the case on him is the best.

Urgh. Camn just voted someone who wasn't even on the LoS she posted 1 page ago. I don't know how to digest this at all. I'm also bothered by the fact that your trend on Charter is: Scum+Vote -> Misguided town -> LoS #3 -> "Maybe not so bad!"

Well, consider this, I think they are

all

scum, so what is the problem with pushing the one where there is the slightest possibility rather than what would seem a complete impossibility? On your scum list is #1 the only scum, or would you be happy with any of the three dead?

[Walnut]

@Mac: Sorry to hear about your wrist. Get better soon- I am looking forward to taking another round of abuse

I know LG was getting grumpy about people defending him on Day 1, but on this last page there were a few arguments against him that I just don't buy:

He's now shown us he's capable of posting quite frequently, but why was he not when he wanted Netlava to be lynched?

Why should you post a whole lot if you want to get someone lynched? As the evidence shows, Netlava was lynched without a constant stream of attacks on him by LG. After his initial post 176, the flow of the game was going in the direction he wanted (ably supported by Camn's "let focus on one person") and it did not need more fanning of the flames.

Ok, here's some good LG evidence. "Who's the best person to vote for?" "The easiest to lynch of course!" Not because he's the scummiest or because there's the case on him is the best.

Frequently you find yourself in a position where you have two (or more) people you think are scum. If other players agree with you about one but not about the other, you will vote for the easier lynch. There is essentially scummy about this- it is valid town play.

How can you play mafia otherwise? Seriously?

That's the core of playing mafia - giving it your best guess and seeing what turns out. The more you do that, the more you get a feel for how people interact, and the better you get at doing it right. (Disclaimer: You will also sometimes get things horribly, horribly wrong. I still believe if you give it your best guess and run with it, you'll be right more than you'll be wrong.)

It is a good point. I guess where I differ is in how soon you say "I have enough information, and now I am going to guess", especially as continuing play provides more (potentially useful) information (and no, I don't mean to drag that old argument up from the dead again). In all seriousness, maybe that is the advantage of your many years of playing- that you have built up the experience base to be confident in your picks, or perhaps had so many games that individual ones don't seem so significant. Historically, including reading of games that I have not played in, I have not been very good at guessing the scum, so I tend to look for more info.

Changing CFRiot's words regarding Charter from "scummy" to "unhelpful/anti-town" is yet to convince me- I am still for a Charter lynch today.

[Thesp]

In all seriousness, maybe that is the advantage of your many years of playing- that you have built up the experience base to be confident in your picks, or perhaps had so many games that individual ones don't seem so significant.

Or maybe I've gotten to the point that I realize more info isn't going to help me anyways, so I'm just going to take a stab at it.

In all seriousness, I think extra time does more to help scum recover from early missteps than it does provide useful information. Your mileage may vary.

[Farkshinsoup]

I'm back from vacation, but something's come up in meatspace and I can't devote to much time until tomorrow night. (I also have another game with a deadline, I have to give that some attention).

Ever since I attacked him, Tinsley's been looking to get rid of me somehow. And I still can't forget that lousy argument he pushed my way when I put my vote on him.
LG's response to my vote was also interesting. If we manage to lynch Tinsley today, I'll be looking at LG hard tomorrow.

Time to fish or cut bait.

Unvote Vote:Tinsley

[Mizzy]

Just letting you all know that I am getting ready to move. I'll still be able to post vote counts like I always have, so please don't worry. I just might not be quite so on the ball a week or so.

[Tinsley]

I don't have enough time to address everything that's been asked of me right now, but I will address the most pressing question:

Tinsley, your last post says you don't think Fark and LG are scumbuddies, but your one before it says you'd be ok with a lynch of one or the other. Which is it? If you think it's just one of them is scum, which one?

They've both done things that have piqued my scumdar, but because of their little fight on page 26, I'm starting to have doubts they are both scum. Because I continue to believe Fark wants the easiest lynch possible (notice he switched his vote back to me when my bandwagon started gaining steam) I think he's the best lynch, and that's where my vote is going to stay.