don't waste an investigation there check someone else
or how about if we have a detective or something we don't out them for no reason that seems good
im going to beat UT to it because fuck UT
VOTE: farside
fyi in terms of Reck’s revelation
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
the insistence that reacting poorly to the idea of trying to get investigatives on starbuck is somehow scummy is just buck wild to me
we have a whole chunk of this game that isn't sorted that a inv check would be fantastic to help us sort out. instead people wanted to focus in one starbuck/porkens/farside, which was going to resolve itself anyway? oh look, farside flipped scum, porkens is dead. i get the paranoia of wHaT iF sTaRbUcK wAs LyInG but honestly that'll have to sort itself out later and i'm way more inclined to believe SB is town for now rather than get tunnel visioned on one tiny corner of the game
don't waste an investigation there check someone else
or how about if we have a detective or something we don't out them for no reason that seems good
im going to beat UT to it because fuck UT
VOTE: farside
fyi in terms of Reck’s revelation
oh no the reason i believed her is not because i cleared her???? and i didnt imply that
it has to do with something that seems sort of close to "quoting a role pm" so im not going to do it
I thought “because reasons” was because of your revelation.
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
I’m not sure what else we were supposed to interpret “reasons” to be. Wouldn’t have guessed some sort of role pm verbiage in a million years.
But now you’re saying you don’t think she’s clear?
"This Court has never held that the Constitution forbids the execution of a convicted defendant who has had a full and fair trial but is later able to convince a habeas court that he is 'actually' innocent." In re Davis, 557 U.S. 952, 955 (2009) (Scalia, J., dissenting).
I mean, if she's scum it was definitely not anywhere near the best implementation of the strategy of "kill 1 scum to semi-clear 1 scum and kill one town"
I read over Morning Tweet some more both in this game and others and changed this post like 3 times from a thought to asking a probably leading question to what's I'm pretty sure is just a case on MT now.
In most of MT's town and scum games that I've skimmed she's been pretty comfortable getting into the game and putting down votes/suspicions early, though she does unvote occasionally when she comes to decision points in the game.
In this one it feels like she got flustered by the speed of the game and ABR's pushing hard on Auro/VPB - her Tuesday post here (viewtopic.php?p=11926283#p11926283) seems pretty normal, then spends Wednesday and Thursday kind of sort of defending Auro by calling most of what he's doing NAI (and also farside one time in the same way), and then suddenly Porkens does his ABR WTF posting and MT unvotes VPB and starts to post about mayyybe changing to voting Auro since VPB is starting to look town and then Auro's hammered.
Her VPB vote seems a lot more driven than ABR's pushing and liking the people on VPB's wagon than an actual scum-read on VPB at the time which I think is more likely to come from scum than town, and her defending farside in the same way as Auro isn't ULTRA DAMNING but it does feel gross to me. I think I'm just going to quote some posts of hers that made me feel this way below, bold or italicize a few sections of 'em, put a comment with a couple others.
Spoiler: Initially considering VPB mostly b/c of ABR
1) He's desperately trying to look town and willing to make big posts calling out some people as town and some as scummy (he says I'm NAI in the big post, later says he doesn't like that I am rolefishing Reck). MT says this is town but it seems incredibly pre-planned to me so I think she's the scumbuddy.
You mean this?
In post 642, Morning Tweet wrote:Agree with VP's comment on ABR more or less being impossible to read. Trumping, lol. Same thing for Hoopla being fine I guess
My response to VP's big post was: Agree on ABR, agree on Hoopla, I ask him why he dislikes Auro exactly, I wonder if im wrong about IAUN, I like his reaction to UT partially cause its funny but i disagree with the actual point he makes about UT, and i disagree on farside.
i don't know where you get the idea im calling VP town. I like some parts of the big post but he's still in the PoE i posted a little ways back, i haven't moved him. The only part i even mentioned liking was the funny reaction to UT lol
that being said though i dont find it scummy that you interpreted it that way, i guess. Makes sense you'd start connecting him with people if you're so sure you've caught scum i suppose
I'm gonna have to reread to see what i think of the other points. Up til now i have just seen your "Vote VP vote VP" posts but not any that really explain why
Spoiler: Defending farside b/c the things she's doing aren't alignment relevant
In post 724, Auro wrote:Morning Tweet & Blair, I'd like it if you both can revisit my earlier push on farside and give me your thoughts on it.
Her read on you seems to be one of many that seem to be BoPing you almost. like they think you're not doing enough. That must be annoying.
A lot of your push on farside seems like you feel she's evaluating you unfairly. such as 493 -- you're trying to get her to prove she's actually reading you in good faith. It is kind of hard for me to tell if she's onto something since i haven't read that hydra game she's bringing up. However! I would not be surprised in the slightest if you're playing differently in this game, and i would not scumread you for it regardless.
I don't think that necessarily makes farside scum though so i wouldn't be interesting in voting her
Spoiler: Also not finding the things Auro is doing to be alignment relevant in her next post
hoopla wrote:
it looks to me like auro has been deliberately subverting the expectations of the typical townie blueprint on D1. the no-lynch joke, the theory discussion in lieu of actual scumhunting, the early spamming seemingly devoid of depth. these actions can easily be interpreted as suspicious, because his entire posting appears to go against the grain. but the fact he is self-aware that he goes against the grain and does it anyway seems like a town mindset. a town mind resolute in playstyle, come what may from people's reactions - the following quotes from post 275 being prime examples;
That describes Auro's play pretty much exactly how I see it except that I'm not sure whether to call it town or scum play. It just looks more like the newer site meta. All of this just feels like the new style of play. It's kind of screw around until something catches your attention or deadline gets close. That makes it hard to have a read on this kind of player for most of Day 1 because it's easy for scum to duplicate that play.
This is why i can't get excited about an Auro lynch. I haven't found anything remarkably AI about him.
In post 733, Llamarble wrote:I think Auro is confusing people because he's scum playing pretty well.
He kept his vote movement from being too simple, gave reads and reasons and introspection, showed a bit of cheekiness.
The thing that's missing is the underlying attempt to actually figure out the game or signs of caring about directing the lynch toward scum.
And for his defensive methods, there is too much focus on 'your logic is bad or not presented.'
I linked the games I looked at so I can look at them again later if I need to.
I look forward to Auro's solve post.
This describes perfectly how i feel about auro. I see him asking players about a few people but i don't see anything that looks like an attempt to figure out those he finds scummy.
His solvey posts are all super townread-oriented, he seems to have not too many scumreads to attack. I suppose this could be interpreted as scummy-- He hasn't tried to start any wagons, doesn't seem to have pinpointed who he thinks is scum. But i think this is true for more players than just Auro and i dont necessarily scumread that in of itself, especially on D1 where scum is the least clear
I'm not trying to say that we can't penalize people for not trying to solve D1 just because there's very little info-- but i think scumreads in particular are tricky, and this game as a whole is feeling very difficult for me at least. And it's not like he isn't trying to solve either, i think on the townread side of the spectrum he's done good in 779.
In post 851, Albert B. Rampage wrote:I mean he seems more concerned with looking town. High effort, but not detail-oriented. He's usually a stronger scumhunter than he's here. Could be an off game, could be scum. We need votes to find out.
I would not be surprised at all if this game is harder to get into for him. I suppose he could be scum but because of the likelihood that this is just a difficult game, it doesn't make me feel like he has any extra chances of being scum
VOTE: VP l-2
Spoiler: Unvoting VPB and starting to change her mind on Auro
In post 1089, Morning Tweet wrote:Pork, are you alright mate? I'm 99% sure you are town but ABR acting irrationally =/= ABR conf scum, so your anger is.. misplaced
UNVOTE:
you know, I can probably defend some of Auro's criticisms, i'm sure some is NAI. but probably not all of them. I don't explicitly townread either of the competing wagonees. I can't find the motivation right now to review Auro's big ass ISO or look back for the most compelling reasons. I do know that he's been the most polarizing character of today so in theory we'll learn the most from flipping/not flipping him
While i dont want to do an in depth look back through the pages, I see VP summarized the scum case just a second ago. what a cool dude
VP Baltar wrote:1) his dump of the vote off me after I called him out as bandwagoning me to avoid the troubles he was facing. I first started calling this out in my post 485
2) He votes farside on like page 17 and does little if anything to encourage people to lynch her. I mean, lord knows I've been playing defense for like 20 pages here and have not been able to do as much active scum hunting -- but I don't think that's the case with Auro. He just kind of sat on that vote and joked and theorized to infinity.
3) THE THEORIZING TO INFINITY, OH MY CHRIST. I know MT says this is how he is, and I don't know him, so that's probably true. But honestly, i think scum has benefited this game from the jumped up page count. I do think there must be a scum among the most active players encouraging that. Auro's fluff to content ratio makes him a good suspect in this regard. I called this out in post 825 Even when he's trying to make "scum/town hunting posts" it looks like generic fluff.
4) The wagon on me has felt like a combination of apathy and a refusal of people to vote Auro. That has obviously shifted. I was starting to get weird concerns in the last day or so because as I started reflecting on why I was getting wagoned, it sort of occurred to me ABR would frequently say "VP or auro" but would then slightly nudge in my direction each time (percentages, etc). Looking at ABR's ISO, I saw lots of more direct calls to vote me and direct criticisms, and not nearly as much on Auro. However, ABR's unexpected switch and refusal to put me at L-1 when he had the chance basically means I was worrying about nothing. So I need to reassess who had a lack of interest in Auro's wagon but has jumped or been on mine with no prob (thinking mainly IAAU and MT here off hand, but I need a closer look at them.)
1) Okay, his switch to farside coincides with you inquiring why he's voting for you. Ah, so he dodged having to explain himself jumping on the highest bandwagon. I can see the logic here for sure-- although I also feel farside's read on him is unfair. Did that warrant him OMGUSing her? Perhaps not, it's certainly an easyish thing to attack if he's scum. I can also find it believable that he feels like farside is being disingenuous though
2) Hmm. I get what he's saying about farside. There was indeed little to no chance anyone was going to join him, though. He did reach out to me and somebody else asking what we thought about it but it wasn't really going to go anywhere. That actually does remind me of how I handled D1 in one of my scumgames -- I voted for a vanity wagon by myself with okay enough reasoning, didn't do too much to actively try to get that player lynched, then got them lynched on a later day.
3) Lol it is very much him. I will agree that, in at least in my case, scum has very much benefited from the game being so long. I'd say that it is fair he is part of the problem, however, regardless of his alignment, he was going to post like this.
4) I know Auro better and disagree with some of the criticisms, whereas I don't know a lick about you. You both are or at least were in around the same spot in my PoE. Not exactly sure what I think at the moment.
In post 1006, Morning Tweet wrote:ABR switching to Auro then not switching back to VP who he vehemently wanted at L-1 and claim is kinda eh
are you saying this is a scummy action from ABR?
In post 1014, Morning Tweet wrote:you know what actually, whatever. i read through the past whatever amount of pages the best i could on my phone. Usually i wait till im on my PC to check everything more closely and be more organized and try not to be redundant, but this time i just posted what i was thinking as i thought it. at least i said something when i felt like not doing anything
This feels overly defensive to me.
In post 1089, Morning Tweet wrote:Pork, are you alright mate? I'm 99% sure you are town but ABR acting irrationally =/= ABR conf scum, so your anger is.. misplaced
UNVOTE:
you know, I can probably defend some of Auro's criticisms, i'm sure some is NAI. but probably not all of them. I don't explicitly townread either of the competing wagonees. I can't find the motivation right now to review Auro's big ass ISO or look back for the most compelling reasons. I do know that he's been the most polarizing character of today so in theory we'll learn the most from flipping/not flipping him
you're unvoting me why? Also, why are you saying you need to go to his ISO and dig up reasons to defend him? I mean, like I would do that maybe for someone I was strong town reading, but no someone I "don't explicitly townread"
I think i wrote a bunch of words like scummy, questionable, and the likes but i ended up with eh because i couldn't decide what i thought of it other than it was weird. I know ABR does irrational things-- he could have town reasons beyond my understanding for switching it to Auro, or potentially be doing it for scummy reasons like i speculated in 1099. I had a stronger negative reaction to it when i started making the post than i did while i was finishing it but i posted it
anyway
.
Yeah it was. I meant it more as a whatever to myself feeling disappointed more than to ABR. i was just annoyed i finally felt like trying to say something and then of course it's redundant and ABR is getting on me for it
That's not what i mean. I probably should have said "I
could
defend some of his criticisms". I mean that there are parts of his criticisms (overly high post count, spends too much time debating mechanics) that i could prove are NAI, but other parts (basically the vote pattern with VP/farside) that I wouldn't
Oh i unvoted you cause idk i was actually trying to get a better grasp on the Auro case, I guess. I could have left it on there but your summary was so nice and i don't have a preference between the wagons. I actually could be leaning towards Auro now cause the reasoning for your wagon (other than you're in my PoE) is pretty stale now in comparison to the Auro case, at least in my head
Spoiler: back to townreading Auro b/c of the claim
In post 1139, Morning Tweet wrote:auro's "final moments" reactions read fairly town to me. That or he's a great town actor, which is probably something a lot of the playerlist is worried he is, so i guess that doesn't really matter much
Plus the VT claim tho :/
pedit: i ate that up from porkens i suppose then, i thought it looked great on him, i could believe he was getting worked up over it
Spoiler: Auro is the deads
In post 1150, Morning Tweet wrote:why didn't Hoopla unvote, ask the mod, then determine whether or not she should place weight in the claim. She left it on and asked to help clear up her conflict, but she didn't give the mod any time because she kept her vote on
Pedit: Ugh.
In post 1161, Morning Tweet wrote:Your reaction felt real but i was too scared of being wrong as always.
Untrod Tripod wrote:"why don't we talk more, why don't we talk more, why don't we ask the mod questions about setup that won't actually ANSWER anything real"
what, do you think the scum is going to say "oh, some pressure. guess you caught me and I will now claim scum"? Like at a certain point you just have to go for it, and I've found that the longer you let your D1 go, the less likely you are to actually hit that scum. you end up going with secondary and tertiary compromises. it sucks and doesn't hit scum.
if I made a mistake in voting Auro, fine. I stand by it. you're gonna make mistakes when you don't have the benefit of knowing everyone's alignment
You're right to an extent, although i wish we hadn't done it this way. But you're right that even if someone had stopped the lynch it probably wouldn't have changed that people suspected Auro, i suppose. We might not have gotten anywhere.
Still I see why Hoopla asked about daytalk. She wanted to know if it was possible Auro was assisted in claiming VT (i assume). I feel that if daytalk were confirmed to be off that'd be grounds for switching. but i didnt scumread Auro like most people did
In post 1653, iamausername wrote:1350 - some reasonable wagon analysis. this is basically the only part of the Morning Tweet case that i find at all compelling.
my wagon analysis was pre-farside flip, who turned out to be the mid-way bussing vote of the wagon. i think MT looks a little better, and i want to revisit our D1 wagons later.
i've actually changed my mind on morning tweet. there's no way scum is stupid enough to claim VT for a third time at L-1, especially after we hammered VT-claiming scum the first two times.
@Gamma hmm the speed of the game is one factor. Another is Auro and I's focus on townread/townblock and kinda early fluff posting was received poorly (Which is fair enough but usually how i play D1). And now im just unaavailable to actually reread and analyze well. Pretty shit tier d1 since i never got around to making a scum pool, just a bunch of people i wouldnt vote and seeing who in the PoE is pushed. Which ive done before to some degrees of success I guess but I should've done more scumreading in this particular game. Just didnt come to me
In post 1653, iamausername wrote:1350 - some reasonable wagon analysis. this is basically the only part of the Morning Tweet case that i find at all compelling.
my wagon analysis was pre-farside flip, who turned out to be the mid-way bussing vote of the wagon. i think MT looks a little better, and i want to revisit our D1 wagons later.
i've actually changed my mind on morning tweet. there's no way scum is stupid enough to claim VT for a third time at L-1, especially after we hammered VT-claiming scum the first two times.
lets be bold enough to take on the WIFOM.
UNVOTE:
reevaluating...
i mean
tbf farside claimed VT WITH A SECRET REVELATION THAT WAS BAD TO TALK ABOUT woo woo woo
I'll agree that I thought MT's VT claim seemed townier than the rest of her play
and that I'm still pretty fine with taking today slower than the last two days at least
this was the vote count at the critical juncture of yesterday.
auro was actually on L-4 a few posts prior. starbuck and blair both jumped on auro to push him to L-2, then i switched and pressed a claim from auro at L-1.
given we had a long period of VPB as the leading wagon with little energy elsewhere, i suspect some scum early on the VPB's wagon. iamausername and UT make sense from this perspective. there is definitely scum on that wagon before auro jumped on - they didn't all just decide to bus him when VPB was a fine option. my intuition suggests there was some relaxed scum parked early on that the wagon; positioned opposite to farside who was the scum pushing auro. scum tend to take a mixed approach re: main wagons on D1. and VPB's wagon felt like a classic case of scum quietly expecting it to go through, with players like iamausername/UT happily parked at the base of that wagon.
vanity voter/lurker KMD, and non-voter CLAP are also suspicious. overall, i think we have a fairly inexperienced/unmeticulous scumteam, given auro's and farside's claims, so i think characters like UT/CLAP/KMD fit the profile of whimsical/detached enough to allow auro free-rein to play in his way and claim in his way unchecked.
In post 1682, Green Crayons wrote:I’m not sure what else we were supposed to interpret “reasons” to be. Wouldn’t have guessed some sort of role pm verbiage in a million years.
But now you’re saying you don’t think she’s clear?
she's not mechanically clear, i didnt clear her via mechanics
i cleared her bc the way she claimed and specific things she said made me believe her revelation claim. i can absolutely elaborate more but it would force me to full claim my role
In post 1691, Hoopla wrote:iamausername and UT make sense from this perspective
so you think that with two scum remaining I'm going to aggressively bus my remaining buddy with basically no prompting after having ignored him the rest of the game
In post 1693, Untrod Tripod wrote:so you think that with two scum remaining I'm going to aggressively bus my remaining buddy with basically no prompting after having ignored him the rest of the game
this is your big spicy take
no, i think it's probably one or the other.
with the fourth scum in KMD/CLAP, OR possibly one sneaky scumbag playing an excellent town-looking game.
Bit of nostalgic quote striping because it's a bit easier rn.
In post 1665, Blair wrote:I am aware it requires a big gambit - that's what makes it a spicy take.
Is your point that neither Starbuck nor Reck would engage in a big gambit?
Pragmatic question - what are the odds that you think Starbuck would make it to a LYLO situation if she is scum gambitting this hard? What's the benefit to Reck?
In post 1670, Kmd4390 wrote:Feel free to ask me specific questions if you don't understand my current views or I missed a major event somewhere.
I just want to know when you're going to comment on literally anything happening in the present rather than harping on issues that you can pre-formulate an opinion on based on which way the wind in the thread was blowing since you have the benefit of hindsight.
In post 1670, Kmd4390 wrote:Cantlynchapuppy also had a post that somewhat matched something farside said about investigate roles needing to be on Starbuck/Porkens/farside. It just feels like something a Cantlynchapuppy/farside team would want to happen if scum has some sort of element that screws with investigative roles and they either thought they could get a false innocent on farside or false guilty on Porkens or Starbuck. Like if someone flips framer or sometby, I'm gonna be convinced Cantlynchapuppy is scum.
This is a wild take.
In post 1687, Hoopla wrote:there's no way scum is stupid enough to claim VT for a third time at L-1, especially after we hammered VT-claiming scum the first two times.
Hard disagree. Also wouldn't this be counter to your theory that we have an unorganized/inexperienced scumteam?
Ski mask? Check! Sawed off? Check! Guilty conscience, fear of death? Check! Check! Check!
In post 1698, AGar wrote:Hard disagree. Also wouldn't this be counter to your theory that we have an unorganized/inexperienced scumteam?
i think even the simplest of simpletons would wise up and fakeclaim something other than VT after witnessing your two previous buddies go down in that way.
my thoughts that we have a lackadaisical/unthinking scumteam is precisely because of auro's claim. tracker is a perfect town-looking claim there - it could easily buy you another day or two, and it's even potentially provable. i can't imagine a scumteam led by some old pro like llamarble/reck would endorse that VT claim. even if scum don't have daytalk, i imagine an experienced/thoughtful team would be discussing fakeclaims pregame - at least, i always do as scum.
