Newbie 655: Zeroville. (Game Over!)

[Erg0]

Note: Syphen has informed me that he will have little or no access for the next 8 days.

I will replace him if this is delaying the game unduly.

[JonMW]

Hm. If that's true, then he's basically secured his own position for those 8 days - assuming, of course, that we're not going to waste our lynch on an idler.

Still, kinda annoying.

[WhereIsTony]

meh, real life happens.

I am sure he has a good enough reason. And Ergo will replace him if needed.

[M4yhem]

I find the idea of the list most interesting! M4yhem, you sure come up with some great ideas (also, congratulations, happy scumday!).

Thank you. If you are scum, you are very smart scum because now I don't want to vote you, ever.

It's really an extension of Michel's lists, to be fair, so give him some credit.

As for Syphen, if we all think he's scum we have four options:
1. Lynch him right away. Probably not a good idea because there's a chance he might be a powerrole. It's best to have him claim and defend himself.
2. Wait eight days.
3. Give him a free pass for today and try to lynch his partner
4. Beg the mod for a replacement.

Of course, at the moment we haven't decided on who to lynch. We are waiting for Michel/Pope's Tiara/Syphen to make a list.

There's no reason to sit around twiddling our thumbs though, so here's some more questions to keep us going: (Feel free to interrogate me if you like too.)

Somedamnkid- You seem to think WhereisTony should have moved his vote at some point. When should he have moved it? Who should he have moved it to? What makes the case against that person stronger than Tony's case against Pope's?

Pope's Tiara- Are you still here? Are you hiding because you're afraid the heat will fall back on you if you post? Do you like the list lynch plan?
Can we have a list from you?

Michel- Same questions as Pope's Tiara except for the 'hiding from the heat one. Instead- do you agree that your play is 'cold and lifeless'? What is the main difference between your scum play and your town play?

Yuu- If we all suddenly started voting you, how would you defend yourself? What would you say to change our minds?

Jon_MW- What's the worst thing that could happen in this game? If you had a scumbuddy and they came under attack, would you defend them, attack them or just ignore the whole thing?

J_Slr- Same question as Yuu.

WhereisTony- Do you think somedamnkid is more likely to be scum for attacking you or is it a neutral action? Are him and Yuu protecting each other? If you could lynch Pope's Tiara today, would you, or is there more you'd like to know from him or any other player first? If so, what?

[WhereIsTony]

WhereisTony- Do you think somedamnkid is more likely to be scum for attacking you or is it a neutral action? Are him and Yuu protecting each other? If you could lynch Pope's Tiara today, would you, or is there more you'd like to know from him or any other player first? If so, what?

somedamnkid is more on my radar than he was before but i am not convinced he is scum.

It's possible that him and yuu are protecting one another, but I see nothing solid enough for me to assume they are partners.

I would lynch Pope's Tiara today. His lack of response to my case are the final nail in my opinion.

I would like to get more information from him and every other player, and it is possible that i am just wrong here. But it is an uphill struggle for pope's at this point. As for the nature of information, a better explanation for his actions than "I was nervous"

[Yuu]

Yuu- If we all suddenly started voting you, how would you defend yourself? What would you say to change our minds?

I can't defend myself if there's no acusations for me to defend myself of, right? While claiming that someone might be scum is easy, and it isn't hard to come with something that might be an evidence (because we're all pretty much paranoid, since everyone could be scum - and at that point anything is a reason to doubt anyone), I guess that I only would be able to reply to your question if that really happens. I think the responses of people really depend on the context - what people suspect them for, or how the game is going. And while I think I'd be reasonable and try to free myself of any suspicions that might exist (what I think it's pretty hard on the beginning of the game, since I believe we all doubt everyone at least a bit - well, I do lol), I might also freak out. Meh, that's a hard question to answer!

Also, on the Syphen case, I believe in number 3, give him a free pass for today and try to lynch his partner. RL looks pretty hard on him (but if that goes on, asking for a replacement looks good).

[WhereIsTony]

Yuu- If we all suddenly started voting you, how would you defend yourself? What would you say to change our minds?

I can't defend myself if there's no acusations for me to defend myself of, right? While claiming that someone might be scum is easy, and it isn't hard to come with something that might be an evidence (because we're all pretty much paranoid, since everyone could be scum - and at that point anything is a reason to doubt anyone), I guess that I only would be able to reply to your question if that really happens. I think the responses of people really depend on the context - what people suspect them for, or how the game is going. And while I think I'd be reasonable and try to free myself of any suspicions that might exist (what I think it's pretty hard on the beginning of the game, since I believe we all doubt everyone at least a bit - well, I do lol), I might also freak out. Meh, that's a hard question to answer!

Also, on the Syphen case, I believe in number 3, give him a free pass for today and try to lynch his partner. RL looks pretty hard on him (but if that goes on, asking for a replacement looks good).

Even though it was not my question, I am bored and will comment

I actually agree on this point. I find when accused unless its a specific factual reason best to ignore it and continue scum hunting.

Everyone here is claiming they are town, two of you are lying and the rest of us have the job of ferreting them out.

Now if someone says a specific notion and I feel an explanation will help me (and in doing so the town). I will explain why I did it. Sorry if I am rambling i am having a boring boring day)
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question for IC's how long does a first day usually take.
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[MichelSableheart]

First of all, I must apologize. With my (holiday) workday eating a large amount of my spare time, and delivering newspapers and dinner cutting that spare time down further, I'm having a hard time being online long enough to read this thread and write a good post. The past couple of days have been an extreme case of this, however, and I'll try to post more regulary in the future.

This post is probably rather egocentric. I'm responding to things jumping out to me, and posts mentioning me are simply more likely to jump out.

M4yhem votes for Tiara, claiming that this is motivated by the "random voting" stage in the game. Take note that Michel - who may have more or less experience than M4yhem (wiki turned up nothing on him) - disagrees with him on this point. Perhaps M4yhem was lying to us? Perhaps Michel was. MAybe one of them is simply wrong, or maybe one of them is taking advantage on us being newbies - we do not know how the game is played.

Peculiar suggestions you're making there, especially if you look at what was being said. M4yhem claimed that random votes are a good way to start conversation. This is indeed the reason that most games on MS start with a random voting stage. I personally believe that it is much more useful to start conversation on topics that can actually be discussed, with reasoning that can be disagreed with.
However, I really don't understand why this disagreement between us automatically would mean that one of us is wrong, or worse, actually giving bad advice on purpose. As an IC, we are here to guide you through your first (or one of your first) games. Giving bad strategic advice or simply lying about how the site works is never part of how a good IC (which I hope I am) plays.
Also, if you click the wiki button at the bottom of my post, you should be taken to my wiki page. There is a bit of information on me to be found there.

Nobody wants to clearly identify themselves wither way - someone who appears to be mafia is going to be lynched. Someone who is accepted as a townie is sure to be NKed, because they increases the chance that a townie will be lynched on all following days.

Sorry, but I believe this is incorrect. Townies should always try to appear as townie as possible. Sure, that means you'll risk being nightkilled, however, the mafia is going to try to nightkill a townie anyway. If all townies try to act in a way that's best for town, is a lot more difficult for mafia to further their own interest without being detected.

Any game is better than no game, so I'll kick this along a bit, repercussions be damned. Can it simply be understood that this action is not motivated by trying to find scum, just to further the game itself?

If you want to see some new action in the game, please try to open a new avenue of discussion. Trying to reach a lynch simply for the purpose of reaching a lynch is never a good move for a townie, because such a lynch would be worse then random (the scum have influenced it after all), whereas town can do better then random by paying close attention to the information available in players reactions. Your immediate unvote was definately the correct move there.

Since my last post, WhereIsTony has started to contribute more, removing my main reason of suspicion for him.

Unvote

. I'll need to take a much more thorough look at the thread to make a well informed vote or scumlist at the moment though. My last post is a bit outdated.

As for Syphen, if we all think he's scum we have four options:
1. Lynch him right away. Probably not a good idea because there's a chance he might be a powerrole. It's best to have him claim and defend himself.
2. Wait eight days.
3. Give him a free pass for today and try to lynch his partner
4. Beg the mod for a replacement.

option 2 is by far the most desirable there. A replacement really bogs the game down, and is not worth the trouble if you know that the disappeared player will return after a small amount of time. Giving him a free pass also feels pretty awkward: it would make dissappearing on purpose a valid strategy for scum, which should, in my opinion, never happen. Winning the game by confusing all other players is perfectly fine, but winning the game by simply not being there should never be acceptable. If we are convinced that he is scum (which I am not, at the moment, BTW), we could lynch him immediately, but it's more polite to wait till he returns.

do you agree that your play is 'cold and lifeless'? What is the main difference between your scum play and your town play?

I am not a very passionate player, usually relying on logic rather then gut to find the scum. I try to think things through before posting, checking and doublechecking the facts. Besides that, I have invested less time into this game then I would have liked. The description 'cold and lifeless' is probably justified because of that.
As for your second question: the main difference is that, when I'm town, I try to find scum, whereas I only act as if I try to find scum when I'm actually scum. I can't really get more specific then that, because I try to remove any obvious discrepancies between my town and scum play by altering my scum play to look more like my town play does.
If you want to get a feeling for the two, it's probably better to try a meta-read if you have the time. All games I have ever played are listed in my wiki page.

question for IC's how long does a first day usually take.

This varies depending on the activity and determinedness of the players and the leniency of the mod. For normal MS games, about a month.

[J_Slr]

It's really an extension of Michel's lists, to be fair, so give him some credit.

As for Syphen, if we all think he's scum we have four options:
1. Lynch him right away. Probably not a good idea because there's a chance he might be a powerrole. It's best to have him claim and defend himself.
2. Wait eight days.
3. Give him a free pass for today and try to lynch his partner
4. Beg the mod for a replacement.

Of course, at the moment we haven't decided on who to lynch. We are waiting for Michel/Pope's Tiara/Syphen to make a list.

There's no reason to sit around twiddling our thumbs though, so here's some more questions to keep us going: (Feel free to interrogate me if you like too.)

Yuu- If we all suddenly started voting you, how would you defend yourself? What would you say to change our minds?

J_Slr- Same question as Yuu.

I agree that we need more input from others.

As for my defence, it woud depend on the argument presented.
If people voted for me because they thought I was scummy, but presented no reasons/arguments, I doubt there is much I could do to defend myself. Though I might try slugging it out with them for a bit
However if they thought my posts were scummy and said as much I will try to explain my reasoning/actions.

Ultimately though my reaction would depend on who and why someone went after me.

[Erg0]

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question for IC's how long does a first day usually take.
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I'll usually set a one week deadline if the first day goes for more than a month (so about five weeks maximum).

[JonMW]

Jon_MW- What's the worst thing that could happen in this game? If you had a scumbuddy and they came under attack, would you defend them, attack them or just ignore the whole thing?

The worst thing? That would be if I was lynched, and the town lost as a direct result of that - whether that's from wasting a lynch, or removing the point of view of a townie, and so on and so forth.
I mean, sure, it would be pretty bad if I got

nightkilled

instead, but that's just par for the course. It's almost a point in my favour, an indicator that I was a thorn in the mob's side, likely to sniff them out through their computer monitors all the way from across the planet.

The second question is much tricker though, because I haven't been in that situation. Putting myself into such a complex hypothetical situation will take me a few minutes...
Ok, done. Well, speaking freely and purely tactically, I would not want to come to their aid directly, because that would only increase suspicion. I think that I would simply refuse to acknowledge that they had acted particularly untownieish, and declare that some other, town-aligned person seems more scummy in comparison.
Attacking your own teammate just seems to risky. If they start to accumulate votes, either you shoot your own team in the foot or you break the attack right when a lynch looks probable for that person - neither of those situations seems to be a good game-winning strategy, in my opinion.
I understand misdirection and doublethink as well as the next guy, but I don't think that it's such a good idea when it involves halving your own strength.
Perhaps the odds would be worth it in one situation that I can think of... if you came to the aid of your teammate, made your allegiance to them clear enough, and then nightkilled them.
Although it costs you an all-important NK, it might just buy you enough trust from the townsfolk to survive.

[JonMW]

Nobody wants to clearly identify themselves wither way - someone who appears to be mafia is going to be lynched. Someone who is accepted as a townie is sure to be NKed, because they increases the chance that a townie will be lynched on all following days.

Sorry, but I believe this is incorrect. Townies should always try to appear as townie as possible. Sure, that means you'll risk being nightkilled, however, the mafia is going to try to nightkill a townie anyway. If all townies try to act in a way that's best for town, is a lot more difficult for mafia to further their own interest without being detected.

We're assuming that it's not easy to act townie, here. Just look at how the votes have been madly jumping about from person to person in this game!

In the impossible best-case scenario, the mafia should believe that you are acting suspiciously enough to be a possible lynch target (and therefore will not spend a NK on you)

but

to not stand out so much that you are lynched.
If there is a single person who is clearly pro-town, then they are in no danger of being lynched. If you assume that a person is chosen semi-randomly from the remaining populace, then the probability of a mafia member being lynched is

increased

while the openly pro-town person is still alive.
Hence, the mafia can and should NK that person as soon as possible without necessarily drawing attention to themselves.

---

And about my previous post - with the doublethink strategy - I forgot that roles are revealed upon death. That changes things.

[J_Slr]

The second question is much tricker though, because I haven't been in that situation.

Putting myself into such a complex hypothetical situation

will take me a few minutes...
Ok, done. Well, speaking freely and purely tactically, I would not want to come to their aid directly, because that would only increase suspicion. I think that I would simply refuse to acknowledge that they had acted particularly untownieish, and declare that some other, town-aligned person seems more scummy in comparison.
Attacking your own teammate just seems to risky. If they start to accumulate votes, either you shoot your own team in the foot or you break the attack right when a lynch looks probable for that person - neither of those situations seems to be a good game-winning strategy, in my opinion.
I understand misdirection and doublethink as well as the next guy, but I don't think that it's such a good idea when it involves halving your own strength.
Perhaps the odds would be worth it in one situation that I can think of... if you came to the aid of your teammate, made your allegiance to them clear enough, and then nightkilled them.
Although it costs you an all-important NK, it might just buy you enough trust from the townsfolk to survive.

I would like to point out to you that the underlined section is decidedly dodgy to my mind. M4yhem asked a question, and your response was to strongly reinforce the fact that your answer is all just speculation, almost as if you have a guilty conscience.....

As for the rest, you lost me in your (hypothetical) tactics..... could you please clarify them? The first bit about distancing yourself makes sense, but could you explain the attacking you own team mates bit??? And the whole NK your friend bit?

Or am I just completely misunderstanding you here?

[J_Slr]

@The Pope's Tiara:
I repeat m4yhem's question:

Are you still here? Are you hiding because you're afraid the heat will fall back on you if you post? Do you like the list lynch plan?
Can we have a list from you?

As I have no other way to make you react I am adding more pressure.

Vote: The Pope's Tiara

Unless I am mistaken this should put The Pope's Tiara up to 3 votes. I know that you were online yesterday at 7:09 (Gmt) and M4yhem's post with this question was posted at 6:19 (Gmt). What are you up too?
From my view point you should not fear being lynched right now unless you make blatantly obvious you are scum because anyone placing those last 2 votes had better have a good reason!

[J_Slr]

For our ICs, MichelSableheart and M4yhem:

M4yhem, you asked John what he would do if he was scum and his partner was taking heat.

I would like to know what each of you would do?

[M4yhem]

J_Slr- It depends on exactly how much heat he/she was taking and how they were handling it.
1-3 votes and I would ignore it completely and concentrate on making my townie targets look bad.
More than three votes or if my partner is obviously unable to handle the pressure means that I will have to sacrifice him/her. At this point, I will attack my partner as strongly and convincingly as I can and then help kill them by voting for them.

At this point, I'm leaning towards a Tiara lynch. We'll see if he has anything to say.

Michel- Please when you have time, will you make a list and say who your top three choices for the lynch would be? I think we have enough information to move to da two, what do you think?

[JonMW]

The second question is much tricker though, because I haven't been in that situation.

Putting myself into such a complex hypothetical situation

will take me a few minutes...
Ok, done. Well, speaking freely and purely tactically, I would not want to come to their aid directly, because that would only increase suspicion. I think that I would simply refuse to acknowledge that they had acted particularly untownieish, and declare that some other, town-aligned person seems more scummy in comparison.
Attacking your own teammate just seems to risky. If they start to accumulate votes, either you shoot your own team in the foot or you break the attack right when a lynch looks probable for that person - neither of those situations seems to be a good game-winning strategy, in my opinion.
I understand misdirection and doublethink as well as the next guy, but I don't think that it's such a good idea when it involves halving your own strength.
Perhaps the odds would be worth it in one situation that I can think of... if you came to the aid of your teammate, made your allegiance to them clear enough, and then nightkilled them.
Although it costs you an all-important NK, it might just buy you enough trust from the townsfolk to survive.

I would like to point out to you that the underlined section is decidedly dodgy to my mind. M4yhem asked a question, and your response was to strongly reinforce the fact that your answer is all just speculation, almost as if you have a guilty conscience.....

As for the rest, you lost me in your (hypothetical) tactics..... could you please clarify them? The first bit about distancing yourself makes sense, but could you explain the attacking you own team mates bit??? And the whole NK your friend bit?

Or am I just completely misunderstanding you here?

Oh, come on... it wouldn't do to look like I can just jump into the mindset of a mafia member, now would it? Be serious.
NKing your friend would only work in a game when roles are not revealed upon death. I forgot that when I wrote my post.

Attacking your teammate prevents the townsfolk from realising that you're working together. How simple can this get?

[J_Slr]

Sorry Jon it was just the way you explained your tactics that had me confused.

Oh, come on... it wouldn't do to look like I can just jump into the mindset of a mafia member, now would it? Be serious.

I need to point out to you that if you had not have said that, I would have thought nothing of it, after all you were just answering the question. Its a kind of backwards logic, but as I see it professing that it is entirely hypothetical and complex rings more alarm bells than just answering the question.

anyway it was this line that had me confused:

Perhaps the odds would be worth it in one situation that I can think of... if you came to the aid of your teammate, made your allegiance to them clear enough, and then nightkilled them.

[M4yhem]

People’s choice for scum, top three (1 point for third, 2 points for second, 3 points for first place):

Syphen +3
JonMW +2
Pope's Tiara +1 –M4

Pope's Tiara +3
Syphen +2
JonMW +1-Whereis

The Pope's Tiara +3
Syphen +2
WhereIsTony +1-Jon

Syphen +3
somedamnkid +2
The Pope's Tiara +1 –J_Slr

JonMW +3
WhereIsTony +2
Syphen+1- Yuu

Whereistony+3
The Pope's Tiara +2
JonMW+1- somedamnkid


Currents scores:
Syphen = 11
Pope's Tiara = 10
JonMW = 7
WhereIsTony = 6
somedamnkid =2

Still waiting for Michel's, Tiara's and Syphen's lists.

Mod:

Please will you prod The Pope's Tiara? He hasn't posted for a while and we don't know why.

[Erg0]

Vote Count

The Pope's Tiara 3 (WhereIsTony, Syphen, J_Slr)
Syphen 2 (The Pope's Tiara, M4yhem)
WhereIsTony 1 (somedamnkid)
JonMW 1 (Yuu)

Not Voting 2 (JonMW, MichelSableheart)

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

Prodded The Pope's Tiara

[Erg0]

tumescence replaces The Pope's Tiara.

There's your answer.

Posting seems to be slowing a bit, a deadline will be implemented if this continues.

[tumescence]

Hello folks; I'm replacing Pope's Tiara.

I'm a Townie.

Seems that many of you suspect me. I'll skim the previous posts to glean the drift of the thread and the accusations, but are there any post/s in particular that you wish to direct my attention to?

Another question: what means do have to throw off this incorrect yoke of suspicion? I've already Roleclaimed; do I need to address the objections against Pope's Tiara? Or do I merely need to throw the suspicions on a scummier candidate? (because I assure you, I am NOT a villain)

[tumescence]

Still reading through the thread... I'll try to pick out any suspicious characters.

[tumescence]

Um... now that I am thinking about it, perhaps I shouldn't have roleclaimed... oops.

[J_Slr]

Greetings tumescence
Role claim or not, I will judge you on your posts and style of play (contribution/post count).
Although seeing as you have replaced The Pope's Tiara, I will

Remove Vote

as my vote was merely to get a reaction.

Do us all a favour though and give us a list of suspicion and why.
Btw off topic, any previous mafia type experience?