Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Prism]

His approach on me this game is vastly different to how he's ever treated me. The last ~5 games I've played with him he's scumread me. He was town in 4 of those, and scum in 1. My last game with him is the one he was scum in, and in that he mentioned in the scumchat that he knew how to manipulate me by playing to his townmeta, and proceeded to scumread me as usual... the FOOL, that won't ever work on me again.
So, this is very new to me. He doesn't even have a reason to townread me, he's doing it in a memey "Hectic is always town" way. I think there's a chance he's polarising his approach from his last scumgame so that I think he's town here, but he's overdoing it.

Of the 4 games Elements was town and scumread you, how many were you also town?

[Hectic]

[Prism]

Your approach to Chara also really interests me. This post from Undertake 2.0 does a good job of explaining your read on Chara that game. They felt very natural to you, had strong tone, and their reads flowed decently. The most important part was they pushed you as a spare, though.

Townleaning Chara immediately for a line that is honestly trivial to fake is a really hard sell for me here. It begs the question what you're looking for in a scum Chara, which isn't in our best interest for you to answer just yet.

As town you just seem to be very eager to step right into the hole you did last time.

[Hectic]

my first thought upon reading this post was "alright, now to try and emulate my town self that Prism is recognizing so i can keep getting townread."
Undertale S ruined me.

If it's a genuine thought Chara had (replicate its townmeta to appear town), it's one that looks scummy for obvious reasons and is a fairly normal thought to have as scum, one that scum!Chara is likely to forget about and not want to mention in-thread at all.
Secondly, it's a nuanced emotional state to fake as scum. Mostly because scum just wouldn't think of coming up with posting this in the first place, while it could easily come naturally to town.

You are absolutely correct that I should be more scared of Chara though. This is all assuming Chara is a normal player, but Chara is a player with an exceptionally strong scumgame. It'll take a lot more to make me want to SPARE it this time around.

[Hectic]

Hectic saw a much, MUCH more open/friendly Prism as town

I was intentionally waiting a little before mentioning it.

[Prism]

I'm in a different mood, have played significantly more mafia elsewhere and become a bit more callous, and I had very specific goals for myself in mind for that game that I elaborated on there: namely in my demeanor and how I specifically worked with others.

[Prism]

Also I hate the kawaii wave and it left a sour taste in my mouth, but catboi knew that when he did it

[Chara]

are you saying you'd expect Hectic to be more suspicious of you given the shift?

[Prism]

The shift is honestly secondary. I didn't buy his reason for townreading me to begin with-the stuff about me not going out of my way to show my work.

[Chara]

Townleaning Chara immediately for a line that is honestly trivial to fake is a really hard sell for me here. It begs the question what you're looking for in a scum Chara, which isn't in our best interest for you to answer just yet.

but you pretty much laid out your vision for scum Chara in your earlier post, didn't you? is there a reason you decided to play your hand already?

[Chara]

You are absolutely correct that I should be more scared of Chara though. This is all assuming Chara is a normal player, but Chara is a player with an exceptionally strong scumgame. It'll take a lot more to make me want to SPARE it this time around.

friends... i wonder about that. are you sure you really trust me? maybe you're just saying that because you're afraid.

i did have a very good game, but the last Undertale was a team effort. between me and my

real

brother.

Prism, i'm not feeling the same worries about Hectic as you are. you dislike his going after Pooky for objective reasons, but what would you have him do instead? scumread you?

and your read on me, as well. certainly, it has more words to it than Hectic's, but it's only one game of comparison. i could buy the townread, but the juxtaposition of that read and your comparison to Hectic's read on me in Undertale S feels very... intentional?
i was scum there, so why would you expect him to read me the same way in the followup?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

i think we can get to 4 spare win if we do not share universal townreads and go 1 person at a time.

[Chara]

actually, i think i misunderstood part of your point. it wasn't that you expected the same sort of read, it's that you think Hectic is townleaning me too easily and going down the same path as before.

but that mindset is still hard for me to reconcile with your own post on why you like my play so far.

[Chara]

i think we can get to 4 spare win if we do not share universal townreads and go 1 person at a time.

that's a fantasy. play some mafia with us, bear.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

it's not a fantasy

this game is deeper than just mafia or UTRs.

This is a game of chicken between the town and the bad guys except we have more people

[Prism]

Townleaning Chara immediately for a line that is honestly trivial to fake is a really hard sell for me here. It begs the question what you're looking for in a scum Chara, which isn't in our best interest for you to answer just yet.

but you pretty much laid out your vision for scum Chara in your earlier post, didn't you? is there a reason you decided to play your hand already?

Yep. The post I made was highlighting differences I noticed so far. They weren't really planned ahead of time: I just sat down a few minutes before I made that post and figured I should try to read you. The specific points that came up were direct responses to what I saw, rather than specific things I was looking for in advance. In other words, I didn't really need to sit around and wait to use them.

I don't put a ton of faith in them and don't even expect to lean on them forever.

Spoiler: Additional, meta-specific notes that turn this into a giant wall

There are also some after-the-fact defenses here, like that some of these were contrasts I brought up in the original game and therefore nothing new. This wasn't really on my mind at the time, and brings up an interesting point: it potentially gets counterbalanced by you adjusting to them. I think the ingratiating bit was so small and unnoteworthy to anyone but me that I find it being intentional unlikely. I don't think your proactivity was ever really a topic, though, and that stuck out to me more especially when I looked back and saw that it took you awhile to stick your neck out in the original. You really only kicked into gear with #243, and even then you did your best to play it safe.

I'm inclined to believe the proactivty arises from town circumstances, but there are definitely some that exist of you as mafia.

I also don't think it does much harm to comment on where I went wrong in my read on you that game. The most simple explanation is that I underestimated you. I mistook strong, cooperative play as townplay, thinking that you were primarily a tone-based player as scum who would struggle to keep cohesive reads over time. With time, I began to doubt that you even had that strong of a tone as scum either since I thought you were town anyway. The process was: strong tone, probably null, have to catch via reads -> strong read progression, unlikely to have both -> since they're town, scum tone probably isn't great either tbh

I was wrong. You had the tone, but you also had the reads. You were the one player I didn't meta, and it was a death sentence. I do not expect locking you as anything to be easy.

[Prism]

Prism, i'm not feeling the same worries about Hectic as you are. you dislike his going after Pooky for objective reasons, but what would you have him do instead? scumread you?

I don't think I need a solid answer to "What is

an

approach that townHectic likely takes?" to answer "Does townHectic likely take

this

approach?"

Prodding Pooky for content is plausible as town, and as I said it does have clear value. It's incredibly safe as scum because town has good reason to ask, and you're given a ton of flexibility no matter how Pooky responds. The circumstances surrounding it-coming in the middle of getting pressured by me for both content and activity-made me wonder: Is he playing it so safe because he's uncomfortable as scum and struggling to start the game off on the right foot?

That said, I definitely expected better reads from Hectic given what I saw in Undertale 2.0 and Flying Scumsman, both of which he was town in.

and your read on me, as well. certainly, it has more words to it than Hectic's, but it's only one game of comparison. i could buy the townread, but the juxtaposition of that read and your comparison to Hectic's read on me in Undertale S feels very... intentional?
i was scum there, so why would you expect him to read me the same way in the followup?

I'm confused as to what you're asking here. My point is that I expected him to take a very different approach to reading you than he did in the original. The problem is that to me he seemed to have doubled down on an approach that actively burned him: that line about adjusting to me sticks out, from my perspective, as one that people would describe as too natural to be scum.

[Prism]

It's also worth noting why I picked Chara specifically to focus on: I think they'll be very difficult for me to read, but the amount of content/reads they had given in the game were unparalleled at the time. Easily the best place to start.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

There is more than one game happening at the moment

the sooner we focus on the correct game - the closer we will move to winning.

[Prism]

There is more than one game happening at the moment

the sooner we focus on the correct game - the closer we will move to winning.

Half the game is against sparing Day 1 while you're still refusing to out reads and calling for weird election-style minigames that look vaguely familiar

The sooner you play the game in front of you instead of trying to create the one in your imagination, the closer we are to winning.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

um that game has like nothing to do with the way we should approach this game

[redtea]

I've been keeping up and have some Thoughts about hectic and the two almost-wagons, but it's too late to type out right now.
Someone asked me a question... thought it was tweet... i'll figure it out in the morning......

[Tanner]

i didn't think i'd ever have the urge to vig 1/3rd of the players in a given game, but it's actually happened.

Well, 25% of the players in the game right now are scum, but it's probably not all the non-contributors. It's never that easy...usually.

what if... the scumteam was... exactly taylor/lavender/pooky .. aha ha, just kidding.. unless.. ?

i feel like i'm going back and forth on hectic. i really liked 302 (as it's almost the exact same thought i had upon seeing it) and the fact he's pressuring pooky, but then one person that seems to have experience with him says he's suspicious, then the other person that has experience with him says that's the hectic they wanted to see and sigh. wish

i

knew how to read hectic.

@hectic, do you have a read on me yet?

i hate that at this point i want to townread people (e.g. chara and prism with pooky on this page) just for telling people to

play the damn game

.

[Hectic]

[Tanner]

making just one post for this game feels like pulling teeth. someone throw me a question or something.

pedit: ?