Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Andycyca]

What's the scum motivation for admitting OMGUS tendencies, especially when it does precisely what it has done in this situation, which is draw unnecessary suspicion upon oneself.

Start a circular-logic cycle (probably a Too Townie setup). Wondering about the motivation behind X action leads to lots of WIFOM. The only way to answer that kind of questions is asking the source directly.

[Goatrevolt]

Andycyca

I will say that his defense I quoted in the previous post is actually consistent with his behavior this entire game (attacked TPT for self-voting because it's anti-town. Attacked habitang for no lynch because it's anti-town). I disagree with the idea that committing a "known scum tell" is indicative that someone is scum, because the game then will often become "lynch the worst player" and scum who know how to avoid common "scum tell" pitfalls can skate by free. Regardless, though, his consistency in this matter actually gives me better vibes about him. I've still got him around 50/50 based on his "active lurking" tendency of posting occasionally but avoiding taking strong stances, but he's no longer top of my scum list.

Unvote Andycyca

Ectomancer

I find Ectomancer's entire on and off the TPT wagon to be interesting. He suggests that it was a joke, but jumps on the TPT wagon anyway, and then later unvotes in the same post that he says he would not read TPT as town from his actions. In other words he jumps on the wagon with the understanding that it's not strong, and then after I unvote the wagon, he hops back off, yet still keeps a healthy dose of suspicion on TPT. I don't understand why he unvoted here really if he's still suspicious of TPT.

The vote on Nureins I don't understand. You correctly assessed many of his actions, but why do they suggest that he's scum?

I'll admit there isn't a whole lot to pin on ectomancer in terms of blatantly scummy things he's done. I don't understand his votes on TPT or Nureins, so I'd appreciate an explanation there. I think the main reason I find him suspicious is that a lot of his posts are good logically and theoretically but don't actually add anything to the game in terms of finding scum. He stands out as a voice of reason (perhaps why nureins has buddied up), but I haven't seen him doing anything towards actively finding scum.

Jahudo

This would be my current top pick for scum. Post 77 caught my eye the most, as it sets off alarm bells for many different reasons.

First of all is his stance regarding TPT. Statements like this:

I just want a clarification, but your defense against the Pope is that he is your partner?

implies that he feels TPT is scum and that Simenon is his scum partner. Later on in the post, he talks about TPT asking loaded questions towards Matin, etc. He certainly creates a healthy amount of suspicion on TPT and the quote I just provided even shows him implying that TPT is scum.

There's an issue here. Jahudo is not and has not voted for TPT at all. He tosses suspicion on him whenever possible, but if he's so certain that TPT is scum, certain enough to make that statement to Simenon, then why hasn't he voted him? Furthermore is this gem right here:

I hope the Pope settles down and unvotes himself or we’ll never be able to take him seriously.

. Why is Jahudo coaching someone he thinks is scum?

Jahudo's coaching of TPT implies that Jahudo views TPT as town. Jahudo, however, has been tossing suspicion on TPT whenever possible, but has held off from voting him. He's really furthering along the TPT wagon, but remaining off of it himself, and his coaching comment suggests that he views TPT as town. Conclusion: No town player is going to push along a wagon on someone they think is town, thus Jahudo is scum.

I recently finished a game (Mini 601) where I was scum, and committed that exact same coaching a player you think is scum thing. My scum buddy committed that exact same throw a bunch of suspicion on a player and insinuate that they are scum but not vote them thing. Both of those happened on day 1, if anyone is interested in checking me up on that, but I think these reliably suggest Jahudo is scum.

Post 104: I really dislike his FoS on habitang there. Does habitang misattributing a quote make him more likely to be scum?

Post 121:

I also agree somewhat with your feeling that TPT is an irrational townie.

. His earlier posts do not give this impression. They give the impression that he is pushing TPT as being scum. I find this change in opinion (after public opinion has changed) to be suspicious.

Post 149: Now votes TPT. Originally tosses suspicion on TPT (but coaches him), then believes he's an irrational townie, and now votes him. If you believed him to be an irrational townie, then how does a poor attempt at scumhunting change your opinion to him being scum?

Post 263:

f he isn't scum he really needs to do something proactive. Any number of things could help me change my opinion of him.

. Again, I don't see how this statement fits with your vote on TPT. If you're willing to unvote him once you see even the first sign of anything pro-town then I have a feeling you're not too confident in your vote.

Post 311: I have a lot of problems with this post as well.

First is this:

Now it's much better to get everything out in the open and try to fix yourself up. Be honest and clearly outline your opinions of me and the rest. Maybe outline like nureins and Ythill did if you think I've been overlooked.

. More coaching of someone you think is scum? That gives the impression that your suspicion of him is insincere.

Second is this:

I have nothing to hide, do you?

Completely loaded question, and I don't like the fact that you have to assert your townieness.

Third:

This post certainly changed my position of you, yes.

Vote: habitang

Why? You've listed no reasons at all for this vote and have just hopped on the bandwagon.

Then your most recent post, post 347 shows you backing down after others have shown disinterest in lynching habitang.

All in all, I find Jahudo scummy because:

-Twice he coaches players he suspects, suggesting insincerity in actually thinking they are scum.
-Easily persuaded on and off wagons, suggesting a lack of strength in opinions. My take on this is that he knows he's attacking townies and thus has a compete lack of conviction knowing that they'll end up being town.
-Suggests TPT is scum by his words, but doesn't commit to the wagon.
-Jumps on the habitang wagon without any reasoning, and coaching comment suggests he knows habitang is town.

Vote Jahudo

[Goatrevolt]

What's the scum motivation for admitting OMGUS tendencies, especially when it does precisely what it has done in this situation, which is draw unnecessary suspicion upon oneself.

Start a circular-logic cycle (probably a Too Townie setup). Wondering about the motivation behind X action leads to lots of WIFOM. The only way to answer that kind of questions is asking the source directly.

I disagree, and also disagree with tossing this aside as WIFOM. It's only WIFOM if there's a 50/50 chance that scum or town would do that action. I think admitting to OMGUS tendencies is something that scum would be less likely to do, because it puts them in the spotlight and creates unnecessary suspicion on them.

[Simenon]

@ Sim: I obviously wasn't reading "unreal" as literally as you meant it. Rereading habit's appeal, I do see what you mean but it's a tone he's had all along. What do you think of earlier examples like his #27 & 30 (#s in isolation)?

I see more fake looking posts.

But I mean, two "arghs" in one post?

Yes, but habit was in no danger at all. The effect of the post was to draw the spotlight to him, something which could have been foreseen. To play the WIFOM game... what do you think of a player who is crafty enough to employ this tactic but daft enough to time it so poorly?

I don't think habitang crafted that post well at all.
~~~
Could someone actually provide examples where andy would be considered "active lurking"?

Because (this is aimed at goat, who will get this reference) when I think active lurking, I think CPE. Or WoD. I definitely do not consider andy's play anything like that. You might accuse it of being empty, or devoid of original thought, or opportunistic, but the "active lurking" charge needs to be proven.
~~~
Goat's comments on Jahudo are interesting, especially conclusions 2 and 3.

[habitang]

What heat were you referring to? Besides not having any votes on back then, you do know how many votes it will take today to lynch? With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch unless I'm mistaken.

Well I knew I didn’t have heaps of votes on me. I think when I read through the posts, suspicions on me are generally fine in my books, even though YtHill’s suspicions put me off just a tiny bit since he is experienced in the game, so his suspicions are definitely not without good reason. But suspicions are the point of the game so I was easily composed. But it were the suspicions heating up after my no-vote comment that made me feel that momentum was building up against me, and then Cass alerted me of my suicidal thing I may be doing and in every single game I’ve played, I’ve ended up with a solid start to throw it all away with something suicidal like that.
Nhat’s suspicion on me that I was suspicious as hell really threw off, since he doesn’t post much and so when he does post, it carries more weight in my eyes.

And once someone is at L-2 and L-1 every rational townie will discuss thoroughly because a fast hammer is scummy. You have no reason to act this way, but I'd like an explanation.

I didn’t realise this until you’ve said it, but I completely agree. The conversations prior to my rave didn’t seem to be going towards a lynch at all, everyone had their own suspicions and not enough people were agreeing for there to be a majority vote on who everyone thought was scummiest.

Also what benefit of the doubt? That you don't think before you type because you've said its stupidity? That you're inexperienced? That you're not experienced with your role?

Just appealing to your better human nature. You can call it stupidity and inexperienced on my part.

Now it's much better to get everything out in the open and try to fix yourself up. Be honest and clearly outline your opinions of me and the rest. Maybe outline like nureins and Ythill did if you think I've been overlooked. I have nothing to hide, do you?

My opinion of you, hmm… well Goat outlined an interesting case against you, I think his evidence is arbitrary but evidence on Day 1 is generally quite hard to come by. I’m very glad he simply read your posts. I definitely agree with his conclusion though about your lack of conviction. You have voted for me with conviction, and I am still curious to where that conviction comes from outside of my raving post.

Easily persuaded on and off wagons, suggesting a lack of strength in opinions. My take on this is that he knows he's attacking townies and thus has a compete lack of conviction knowing that they'll end up being town.

I'm yet to get together a post on my main suspect though, havn't got one yet, since you are my only subject at present, by default you are my main suspect for the time being. Will post more later.

[nhat]

So...yeah, I guess I'm being labeled as a lurker. To be honest, nothing much has really changed thus far for me. Habitang's flipout is still leaving a bad taste in my mouth, and I don't see why those who voted for him are catching so much heat. Now we even have Cass coaching him after giving him the FoS, which is a bit strange to me.

I was really hoping Tritch would get back to us, but since he split, we'll just have to wait for his replacement before my suspicions change.

BTW, what's going on with Matin's replacement? If we don't have a replacement for him, then TPT/Tritch replacement will be a long time coming.

[Goatrevolt]

Because (this is aimed at goat, who will get this reference) when I think active lurking, I think CPE. Or WoD. I definitely do not consider andy's play anything like that. You might accuse it of being empty, or devoid of original thought, or opportunistic, but the "active lurking" charge needs to be proven.

He doesn't have a lot of solid stances or opinions. He follows along with the game and will comment on most issues, but that's about it. Until his vote on Habitang, I couldn't honestly tell you exactly how he felt about people, because most players he seemed to have fairly down the middle. He mentioned suspicion of TPT, but also was unwilling to lynch him yet. I disagree with his vote on habitang, but at least his reasoning is consistent with his play thus far, at least lending him credibility for now.

Goat's comments on Jahudo are interesting, especially conclusions 2 and 3.

I'm not sure what you mean by interesting.

[habitang]

The conversations prior to my rave didn’t seem to be going towards a lynch at all, everyone had their own suspicions and not enough people were agreeing for there to be a majority vote on who everyone thought was scummiest.

EBWOP

Yhe that is not the reason why I acted that way, I wasn't tryign to stir conversation. I stated the above just in agreement to your point about L-1.

I find Simenon worthy of being reviewed. He seems to be getting impatient, which is hypocritical of me to say. But still I get reviewed by people so I'm goign to review Simenon for his impatience.

[Ectomancer]

TPT was my 4th post and first vote out of the random stage. The unvote there is really no surprise. Lynching the first person you go after usually means you are going to have a short day. I prefer to build a wagon, see what people do, and move along, building reviewable material.

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"

You don't like evidence? That's gotta be some kind of a scumtell.

Dont muddy the waters.

Nurein has inferred Ectomancer as a voice of authority once too many times for me to trust his motivations. His voice is lending authority (and his vote) now to Cass, making her case seem stronger. Questionable player in my mind is Nurein.
Cass is not only pushing for information, but is now using popular opinion to push a lynch for Simenon. (this is momentum folks, Im not necessarily looking at votes)
Goatrevolt has the situation well assessed as near as I can tell.

I had no problems with Simenon's simple statement that TPT was town. I briefly considered asking him about it, but decided it was gut by him, and an invitation to have scum come sniffing around him looking for power roles/more info/etc.
I'm still uncertain about TPT myself (I think Simenon is too, but wanted to derail a quick lynch).
Cass and Nurein have moved to my top suspects at this point, and I'm more likely to believe that Nurein is pandering scum right now.

vote Nurein

This vote was for Nurein pandering.

I removed my vote because I no longer felt like my vote should be sitting on Nurein when I didn't feel confident about what is going on there.

I know at some point he had said this was only his 2nd game. After the lengthy exchanges, and the leeway I tend to give newbies, I couldnt be certain that he wasn't newbie town.

As far as not being anymore than a voice of reason, I'm consciously being much less aggressive in my playstyle, as I believe that can lead to tunnelvision at times, or dominate the discussion enough to allow scum to hide in the flurry. Having more of an observer role will probably improve my analysis game more than spearheading a charge all the time as I was used to do.

[habitang]

I find Andycyca most suspicious.

vote: ANdycyca

He found eveyrone to be either null-tell or townie prior to me. There is biased in my argument too, because his onyl stance has been against me.

I find him as others have commented to be 'opportunistic'. He has been on eveyrone's side, until he realised I'm of no help to him and thinking from scum perspective (it's called empathy), a lynch of someone who is giving theories that noone listens to (refering to my suspicions on Jahudo) is not a scum tell in Day 2 for those who voted me.

SO for me Andycyca falls into my no-vote-theory of how scum can easily slip by Day 1. He says eveyrthing is a null-tell, nothing is suspicious (except me), and by doing that, a lynch will still occur. With 15 pages of post in Day 1, scum must be patient.

He woudl become suspicious as soon as someone realises he has been saying eveyrone is not suspicious, so he jumps on the opportunity to take a stance by voting me.

[habitang]

Oh yeh, I tried reviewing SImenon. Got into a bit of scum pairing, ended up at Andycyca and I failed at reviewing Simenon. He has too many posts within context, ie. in response to others so I have to read eveyrone's posts, not just his, to get a proper idea of it all.

I'm veyr happy with my vote on Andycyca. And Simenon is not on my suspicion anymore. He didn't clear, but I didn't ahve any reason to suspect him either. His behaviour was more aggressive than impatience and is pretty consistent with eevrythign else he does.

[Ythill]

unvote

A lot has been revealed since the habit wagon started. My views of this game have changed considerably. I sense the need for an extensive reread, though I will not have time until the weekend.

For a little while, I considered putting a pressure vote on habit just to see the reactions, but it seems like we've got bigger fish to fry.

Jah was one of those I had privately listed as townie. #311 made me look twice. Now Goat has done a great job of analyzing Jah and I agree with many of the points therein, though they differ from my own. My only real problem with the Goat case is that he doesn't seem to have any doubt, which is unsettling but may be a function of his playstyle.

Anyway... here's what I thought about #311...

Yes I feel the heat of beign suspected by a lot of people. I can only ask that I be given benefit of the doubt, like really really give me benefit of the doubt.

What heat were you referring to? Besides not having any votes on back then, you do know how many votes it will take today to lynch? With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch unless I'm mistaken.

And once someone is at L-2 and L-1 every rational townie will discuss thoroughly because a fast hammer is scummy. You have no reason to act this way, but I'd like an explanation.

I'm glad habit answered this first, because I didn't want to offer the defense to him. Habit was caught up in a gear change. My case came for odd reasons (to offer Cass a read of me) and therefore was sudden. Other sudden suspicion fell upon him. There were no votes but there was a good deal of pressure.

His reaction is fitting for someone who is used to getting himself killed D1.

Also what benefit of the doubt? That you don't think before you type because you've said its stupidity? That you're inexperienced? That you're not experienced with your role?

This picks up the unreasonable argument Andy already questioned and runs with it: whether a player is new to the game or to the role. The hole in the argument is that a player with experience as town will play better as scum.

The quote also contains unecesarry ad hom aimed at a player who was already against the ropes a few votes ago. Intended to draw further emotional outbursts? Maybe.

Honestly, can I redo with a clean slate? I wish I never posted anything now.

Now it's much better to get everything out in the open and try to fix yourself up. Be honest and clearly outline your opinions of me and the rest.

Maybe outline like nureins and Ythill did

if you think I've been overlooked. I have nothing to hide, do you?

I very much dislike the way Jah is attacking a player who is apparently unskilled while complimenting some of us who have argued strongly. There was no linguistuc reason to name examples. It sounds like positioning to me.

Not only am I going on a rave, I think that if I just let everything go, then maybe you will see me better.

This post certainly changed my position of you, yes.

Vote: habitang

This statement is very empty. Its tone says that Jah caught on to some really convincing evidence, but the case he gives amounts to very little and all of it full of holes. Jah has shown himself to be intelligent and perceptive. Why would such minor evidence change his mind so strongly?

I think what happened is that a skilled mafioso saw the town pushing his only attacker toward the noose, got cocky, and slipped up.

vote: Jahudo

[Goatrevolt]

My only real problem with the Goat case is that he doesn't seem to have any doubt, which is unsettling but may be a function of his playstyle.

I feel pretty strongly about Jahudo as scum, but of course there is always some doubt. I just don't see his actions from the point of view of a townie looking to find scum. They make much more sense to me from the point of view of scum looking for the best spot to position himself. I really do think he jumped at the opportunity to lynch his attacker in habitang. His vote seems extremely insincere considering he was coaching habitang in the same post and in his most recent post backed off (after others showed disinterest in the case).

I'm curious as to why you are unsettled by what you perceive to be a lack of doubt in my thoughts about Jahudo.

[nureins]

I feel pretty strongly about Jahudo as scum, but of course there is always some doubt.

i know that i promised to analyze your post on your suspects, Goat. But the first reading about it, I had a strange impression. So I need lot of time.

You put lot of heavy arguments on someone I believed town. Especially coz habitang was the one who erratically (and frankly, very badly) pointed out to Jahudo. Maybe I was tempted to read him as townie as he was defending against such crap. And now, after habit stops pointing to jahudo ythill joins you. Someone that is going down in my vibes but yet high (answering to ythill, I have not completely changed my view, "my buddy", I read your posts as more townie later, that is different...)

Allow me to re-read deeply to answer you. Feel free to use me as a devil's advocate as Ill probably defend Jahudo.

With respect to Ectomancer, I didnt understand his vote on TPT, as I mentioned to him, but his vote on me is ok. He was trying to shake me on my attitude.

[Cass]

I'm not very happy about the Jahudo wagon. Goat's case is well-researched, but all Jahudo's doubt and coaching / not voting / etc. was for TPT and Habitang. Two erratic players who seem(ed) new and/or clumsy and who are quite impossible to read. Now, that would indeed suit a scum, but it would also cause a townie to be unconviced. In fact, being unsure on day 1 seems more (or as much) a town as a scum tell. How could a townie be sure of anything?
Maybe I'm just saying this because I feel exactly the same way about TPT and habit (but am a bit more liberal with votes ), but I have also been swinging between coaching, voting, ignoring. Right now I'm at a point where I'll leave these two be for a bit. Habit is trying, Tritch will be replaced, I'll give it some time.

What's actually more worrying about Jah is that he seems to keep his opinions limited to these two 'easy victims'. I don't think that's actively scummy though.

[nureins]

Finish re-read.


Indeed, I yet find TPT scummy to a point. I suppose he is also waiting for Tritcht's participation.

Post 104: I really dislike his FoS on habitang there. Does habitang misattributing a quote make him more likely to be scum?

Here you are mostly right. I did not like that one. But I found a possible reason for the "FOS". In the first part of this post, Jahudo was forced to insist on the previous mistake he had committed. This is not good for ego. In the second part, habitang was telling him something "bad" based on words of other person. This was not his mistake, so he reacted a bit harsh. This together with a series of erratic attacks by habitang lead to a (probably) inappropiate FOS. With respect to the rest of points, the coaching on habitang is perfectly understandable, due to habitangs' strange way. And it is also consistent along the game. He has chosen two of the most erratic players, he votes for them and explores them "his way".

I'm open to consider your points, which are partially convincing and changed a bit my view with the re-read. While I wait for Jahudo's words, let me provoke you a bit to extract more on all that.

1- Do you think I am right in my point that Jahudo was consistent ?

Because if you answer yes, I want to understand better the following. Andycyca was "consistent" in attacking some people for acting in concrete ways, even without considering the circumstances or the behavior of these players. This is like acting "theoretically", following a very rigid way, and for some people could be scummy (it was for you a little bit as he was in your list, right?). But you considered him less suspicious for being consistent.
Jahudo, simplifying, could have been doing something scummy as attacking/coaching/stopping couple of erratic players. Ok, I buy a little bit of all that.

2- But shouldnt consistency reduce your suspicions on him ?

If the answer is not, and this is the whole point of all this long post (sorry, really, I try but I cant. And english does not help )

3- Which are the differences among the two cases ? which of the two attitudes would scum choose to behave with, most probably and why ?

[nureins]

sorry, I copied my post from a text-document and I copied only half. Please add this before the other part


---

Ill try to resume some comments on Jahudo. Of course, they do not answer all your points on him. That is his task, and Ill read it very carefully...

I selected a couple of quotes just to start my mind-work and then elaborate a little bit on most of your points.

]There's an issue here. Jahudo is not and has not voted for TPT at all. He tosses suspicion on him whenever possible, but if he's so certain that TPT is scum, certain enough to make that statement to Simenon, then why hasn't he voted him?

In post 77, Jahudo committed a mistake due to a misunderstanding. If I have followed it correctly, he admitted it later (and more follows with habitang). Later, as you also point out, Jahudo explains in Post 137 why he refuses to vote tpt at the moment. This is in my view consistent with his playstyle, as he is not hurrying in votes or attacks to different people. It seems to me that he is observing and updating his scumeter until some people reach a very consistent scum position. In post 149 he voted for tpt due to a new bad intervention. I might consider this a quick change of mind at most, but I can interpret it very clearly. He "gaved" a chance to tpt and tpt decided to go on scummy, so he voted for him. Also, this explains the "coaching". He was observing him and shaking his attitude. TPT reacted very incorrectly and he voted for him.

Indeed, I ...GO TO POST 365

Funnily, Cass again had similar vibes to me. Again at the risk of buddying, he is like an iceberg in my scumeter...

[Cass]

Did you just call me 'an iceberg in your scumeter'? Is that a good thing?

I really, really hope Tritch and Matin will get replaced soon. They actually could both be scum for all we know, making this game very hard to win :p

[Simenon]

He doesn't have a lot of solid stances or opinions. He follows along with the game and will comment on most issues, but that's about it. Until his vote on Habitang, I couldn't honestly tell you exactly how he felt about people, because most players he seemed to have fairly down the middle. He mentioned suspicion of TPT, but also was unwilling to lynch him yet. I disagree with his vote on habitang, but at least his reasoning is consistent with his play thus far, at least lending him credibility for now.

No, I mean actually prove it with quotations, links, or post numbers.

I'm not sure what you mean by interesting.

engaging or exciting and holding the attention or curiosity

[Ythill]

I'm curious as to why you are unsettled by what you perceive to be a lack of doubt in my thoughts about Jahudo.

Please realize that "unsettling" was meant to indicate

mild

suspicion. I did explain that your lack of doubt

might

be a facet of playstyle and I am voting the target of your attack.

Basically, I'm noting the lack of doubt as something that may be revealing. If I have more cause to suspect you later, I'll do the meta to check out this lead.

That said, I will explain... Your case was sort of a PbPA in that it extensively analyzed many of Jah's posts by number. Now, if you look back at my own PbPA on nuriens, you will see that, even though I was pretty convinced he was scum, I noted some townie and null moments from his play. I did this because, as you said, there is always some doubt and I'd rather entertain discussion about that doubt than let an aggressive attack push a possible townie to the noose.

You are experienced enough to know, as I do, that an attack of this nature can sway people pretty effectively.

Now, knowing that I had decided Jah was probably town, there are obviously some tells (IMO) leading to that conclusion. Though it's possible you missed them, the theory here is that you ignored them, posting only what you found scummy. This seems like a dangerous tactic for a townie to employ, but would suit scummy purposes.

However, I know that some players purposely avoid explicit doubt in posting a case and, if you are one of those players, then this is only a null-tell.

And now, after habit stops pointing to jahudo ythill joins you.

What does the former have to do with the latter?

In my defense, I had stated suspicions of #311 (which was the only subject of my case) before Goat voted Jah. I had said that I was waiting for habit to answer #311 before I explained myself and, during the interim between that statement and my case, habit had done so.

Someone that is going down in my vibes but yet high (answering to ythill, I have not completely changed my view, "my buddy", I read your posts as more townie later, that is different...)

It's still a gear change but, like I said, we should let it slide because,

if

you are town, defending yourself here will give the scum too much information about how to deceive you.

My main concern with this quote is "my buddy." This is not the first time you've mentioned your own buddying, which has the potential to create confusion and mislynches later in the game. I've seen several scum use this tactic but I've never seen a townie do it.

[Ythill]

I put this in a separate post because it's important and I didn't want it to get lost in the above.

Jah should be given time to respond to cases posted by myself and Goat before more evidence is brought against him. There's already an overwhelming amount of information for him to address and I'd rather not make it worse, in case he is town.

[Andycyca]

No time to post today. Sorry.

[nureins]

And now, after habit stops pointing to jahudo ythill joins you.

What does the former have to do with the latter?

Do not start to see ghosts around again. If you see all my post, you will see that I consider habit a very "weird-bad" player, so his vote on jahudo was initially a reason for considering jahudo town, as I did. This is so because apart jahudo showed himself town, he had to defense from a bad player, and you want it or now, that provokes him to appear as more townie even...

The post of Goat was reasoned, and even if I do not share his points globally, I accept some of them. But I also "defended" jahudo because I think goat's points are not so strong. Your vote on him, you want it or not, is the vote of someone I consider partially scummy. The votes and reasons of people I consider scummy (as the votes and reasons of those I consider bad players) are not very informative to me. I wanted to mention that point, without any further impression.

your vote on jahudo was reasoned. Otherwise I would have debated with you, since I consider Jahudo townie more probably. Do not try to absorb Goat's time in chatting with me

With respect to "my buddy", it is not an isolated lurking couple of words but kinda joke to my favourite goebels in a very long post. I was answering Goat about Jahudo, do not focus so forcedly in an expression...

[Ythill]

Do not start to see ghosts around again... do not focus so forcedly in an expression...

Are these threats? I don't intend to alter my play in any way so as to avoid your suspicions. You were wrong about my alignment and I will not consider it the fault of my play if you continue to mistake me for scum.

That said, I understand the "former vs. latter" situation now, so thanks for explaining. I thought you had been insinuating that the timing of my actions were somehow based on habit's but I see that I had simply misread your meaning.

I too saw Jah as town before #311 but, reading Goat's case, I also see that there are things I missed.

[Goatrevolt]

Following along with the game the first time, I will admit that Jahudo was someone I had earmarked as town. The reasons were that he was keeping pace with the game and throwing his 2 cents in on most matters. I believe Jahudo mentioned he hadn't played a whole lot of games, and he struck me as a helpful townie.

It wasn't until the reread that this opinion (quite drastically I will admit) changed. I'm not surprised that most players have him listed as town because I originally did as well. I'd like to ask everyone to go back through and review his posts in context of the game situations.

@Cass: There's a difference between being unsure and being opportunistic. So far I read you as being unsure. I've seen you jump on and off wagons based on new evidence, and though I didn't necessarily agree with you I thought your pushing of Simenon was fine. For those reasons I've been willing to give you a bit of a pass for now.

According to my analysis, Jahudo has jumped on and off wagons not based on new evidence, but based on changes in public opinion. Your suspicion of Simenon seemed real. His suspicions of TPT and habitang seemed insincere or fake because his coaching showed a mentality that he thought they were town. The manner in which he jumped on and off those wagons also didn't match that of a player who genuinely suspected those he voted for. It matched that of a player looking for an easy lynch, or looking for the best spot to blend in with the town.

@Nureins: Habitang actually made a couple of decent points against Jahudo throughout the thread if I recall correctly.

Also, question for you: How does your perception of Jahudo's consistency (waits to gather evidence for a while prior to voting) correlate to his vote on habitang?

Personally I don't think he has been consistent in that manner as you do, but I'd like to see your answer to the above question.

3- Which are the differences among the two cases ? which of the two attitudes would scum choose to behave with, most probably and why ?

I can't tell you which behavior scum would choose to behave with because everyone plays differently as scum. Voting opportunism is probably my number 1 way to catch scum though. Whose votes look like they are trying to find scum vs. whose votes look they are trying to blend in or get townies lynched. As for Andycyca, I think his behavior is a good one for scum as well, as it leads to whoever commits the most scum tells gets lynched mentality, which I find often correlates into just lynching the worst player every day rather than lynching scum. I've seen townies play under the same mentality though, which is why I don't find it conclusive.

@Ythill: When I construct a case, I generally go through and just pick out the parts that I find indicative that said player is scum. This is something I just do subconsciously because I guess it's been ingrained in me as habit, but I can see how it could be destructive. I've used this to good extent in nailing scum, but I've also used it as scum to nail townies, so I can understand your point. I dislike pointing out town tells while making a case on a player because I think that player is scum and want them lynched and pointing out town tells seriously detracts from a case. However, I'd be willing to make a PBPA on Jahudo and point out town/scum tells I see. I've only completed 4 games on this site (2 scum, 2 town), but I'm fairly consistent in this approach in all of my games. Mini 601, 604, 626, and Open 70 are my completed games.

@Nureins: Why does a weaker player attacking another player make that other player more likely to be town? Are you suggesting that a weak player is always going to be wrong day 1?

@Simenon: I'll provide those in a bit.