Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Goatrevolt]

He doesn't have a lot of solid stances or opinions. He follows along with the game and will comment on most issues, but that's about it. Until his vote on Habitang, I couldn't honestly tell you exactly how he felt about people, because most players he seemed to have fairly down the middle. He mentioned suspicion of TPT, but also was unwilling to lynch him yet. I disagree with his vote on habitang, but at least his reasoning is consistent with his play thus far, at least lending him credibility for now.

No, I mean actually prove it with quotations, links, or post numbers

I'm just going through Andycyca's posts in a vacuum here so post numbers are 0, 1, 2, 3, etc.

0: random
1: random
2: Analysis on what's happened so far. No stated opinions.
3: nothing
4: nothing
5: Analysis, suggests suspicion of TPT, but no opinion stated. Also, I dislike the "I'm a townie" bit.
6: More Analysis/following along with the game, but no stated opinions.
7: Finally gives opinions when called out. None of these opinions are solid. I gather that he somewhat finds Sim/Nureins townie, and somewhat finds TPT scummy but that's about all.
8: Analysis
9: Gives an opinion on Sim
10: Double post
11: Questions Ythill, doesn't answer Ythill's question
12: Sorry for not posting
13: This is a good post. He gives an opinion on Nureins and I agree with it. I think it makes plenty of sense. He also throws a FoS on Habitang for suggesting no lynch. My question is why not a vote, and why did this not factor into his later reasons for voting habitang?
14: Votes for habitang
15: Defense
16: Analysis/theory
17: Sorry can't post.

The vast majority of those are him following along with the game but not really contributing anything truly of worth in terms of finding scum (active lurking). The only post here that suggests to me at all the mindset of a townie is the top half of post 13.

I'm not sure what you mean by interesting.

engaging or exciting and holding the attention or curiosity

I guess I'll rephrase my question as: What is your take on Jahudo?

[Jahudo]

I’ll try to answer Goat and Ythill’s main points in turn because there’s a lot there. In short, I did not see the harm in the aspect of my playstyle that you call “coaching”. I am not 100% sure of TPT or habit’s role since this is day one. My coaching has been labeled as “insincerity” but I believe I am just indecisive paired with actively pursuing a better read.

I don’t think I’m contradicting my suspicions by giving room for them to defend themselves. It’s just that I want to understand their posts = better and hear how they respond. I mentioned that I am inexperienced in this game, just my second game here, so if this playstyle is any bit awkward then I guess it’s because I’m still finding its disadvantages and advantages to this investigation style.

In the case of TPT, he wasn’t responding like everyone else so if I was coaching him it was to make a better read on him. Also, I did not place my vote on habit because I wanted to lynch him and I stated my belief that L-3 gave him room to speak his mind. Maybe you could have gotten enough information out of him without my vote, but since he has suspected me as early as his second post in this game I thought it best that habit and I take the opportunity to get better reads. Consequently, I started to read him as town before his erratic post. That post looked like lapse in his posting but several people including himself have helped explain it. His posts since my vote make me see him more townish.

Re: Goatrevolt post 351 and Ythill post 361

-I’ve given my take on the coaching and lack of conviction you think I have. I don’t deny I’ve been doing something, but I would say I am sincere in getting reads through investigations and not hoping around my suspicions to see what will stick for a lynch.

-You said I never voted for TPT while I thought he was scum. I did vote for him after the initial investigation when you said I coached him. I was coaxing him into saying something game-related and relevant. Look back at his post content and say that you can’t make a case he was actively lurking. I didn’t outright say he was scum or Simenon was scum because it was early day one. My question to them was a misinterpretation of Simenon and has already been explained.

-I explained why I wanted to confirm my current read on habitang and why his erratic post required more explanation from me. I could have ignored him and you guys probably would have gotten to the bottom of his posts, and I got the same read, but I felt like saying something in case he got quiet after his defensive post.

I very much dislike the way Jah is attacking a player who is apparently unskilled while complimenting some of us who have argued strongly. There was no linguistuc reason to name examples. It sounds like positioning to me.

-I should have said something like “If you still have suspicions of me then maybe I can answer them in response to a PbPA”. I was unfamiliar with the abbv. and couldn’t think of how to word it without using you as an example. I don’t mean to say you are town or scum for using it yourself.

-TPT and habit have been my two main targets so far and someone said they were easy to go after but I see that as something both scum and town could see. Even if it’s out in the open doesn’t mean it will take care of itself. One of my weaknesses in this game is how I view inactive players. I don’t know if it’s best to pressure more or let it work itself out and what to think in the meantime. When TPT stopped talking and Tritch flaked too it’s been hard to ignore them.

I’m unvoting now and giving my progression of reads on habitang.

-Post 288 I started to see him more townish while still wanting to keep an open mind and not fall into a narrow viewpoint. I was satisfied to move on to someone else then.

-Post 311 no one at that point looked very suspicious to me or active enough to find enough discussion points to investigation (Tritch, nhat, andy). I read his erratic change in posting strange and wanted to find out what it meant. I also saw that I could confirm or disprove my current read this way. So not so much new information as comparing his new post with his older posts and play style.

-Post 347 I wanted a little more talk from habit before deciding if this vote was helpful to me or not. Now I’m back to seeing him as more town and can consider looking elsewhere for a better read.

unvote

[Jahudo]

EBWOP: Ignore the = sign in paragraph two

[Goatrevolt]

Yes, you did vote for TPT eventually, however you also basically told him the exact thing he could do to get you to unvote him, which suggests insincerity in actually finding him suspicious.

As for habitang, you're saying you put the 4th vote on the wagon specifically to gauge his reaction and get a better read on him but you didn't actually think he was scum? What did you anticipate your vote accomplishing? Also, I find it hard to instantly accept this explanation, simply because if others had jumped aboard the habitang wagon, you could have merely stayed on and rode it to a lynch, later citing that you were genuinely suspicious of him.

I personally do not thinking coaching in and of itself is a scummy action. I know, as town, I've coached players before that I think are town. My issue is that the implications of coaching someone means that you think they are town and want them to play better to help find scum or avoid getting lynched. Why would you coach someone you think is scum to play better and show them how to avoid suspicion? Instead you're happy they're playing bad and wish them to get lynched. That's why I have an issue with simultaneously coaching a player you also think is scum or are throwing suspicion on. Coaching them suggests that you are not actually suspicious of them, and thus the insincerity issue I've brought up.

Also, can you further explain the statement where you say to Simenon something about thinking he and TPT are partners. What exactly were you trying to imply with that statement? I have some thoughts here, but I'd like to see your answer to that question first.

[Jahudo]

1) Your question about my coaching
As I said I am pretty new here so I'm willing to adapt my strategy when there are faults in it. Goat, you make a good point that my ability to think of someone as "innocent until proven guilty" allows a scum to find an easy way out after slipping up. If it's on a larger issue that we could catch scum on I think I will be more objective and reserved. So far it seems that several people, including myself, have been willing to defend others to an extent but I don't think we have put our views in stone. Not on day one.

Also I didn't try to coach under the assumption I knew more about this game and could help. With TPT I wanted to see more of him than 1-2 lines per post, without which I thought the town couldn't accurately judge him. The vote was an incentive and perhaps a waste because I got confused in that infer and imply debate which I blame myself for taking us off course momentarily.

With habitang, by post 311 when I voted him there was part of me that wanted to keep believing he was town but the other part that saw his erratic defensive post and I didn't know how to explain it with my previous theory on habitang.

I guess I can't really defend that I wouldn't have acted a certain way with a habit lynch at this stage if it had went through. However, I did say he wasn't in danger of lynching even with me on and I expressed my feelings that a town should be very careful at L-2 and L-1 situations.

2) Your question when I partnered Simenon and TPT
After a few posts some people voiced suspicions of TPT but Simenon said in post 69 "TPT is town, by the way" in those exact words and nothing more. Initially I asked for an expanded explanation and voiced the theory that he was roleclaiming. I admit I didn't consider why someone would role claim so early and I got accused of mason fishing which I was unfamiliar with. When Simenon said "TPT is town" my reaction was "TPT = town" like it was a stated fact. I lated admitted that Simenon was within reason to voice an opinion using the word "is".

[Goatrevolt]

If you were unfamiliar with masons, then why did you specifically use the term "partner." My thought was that you were implying that they were scum buddies together. That's how I initially read that as, and how it looked to me based in context with the rest of your post, especially the part where you FoS Simenon. Your FoS on Simenon implies that you find him scummy. Your statement that you believe them to be partners implies that they are of the same alignment, thus I think it's a fairly safe assumption that you were accusing them of both being scum buddies. Is this correct?

[habitang]

I still need more in terms of why you voted TPT so late,

You said I never voted for TPT while I thought he was scum. I did vote for him after the initial investigation when you said I coached him. I was coaxing him into saying something game-related and relevant. Look back at his post content and say that you can’t make a case he was actively lurking. I didn’t outright say he was scum or Simenon was scum because it was early day one. My question to them was a misinterpretation of Simenon and has already been explained.

said a while back:

Personally I think any scum might've wanted to leave the TPT wagon long ago because it never looked like gaining momentum enough for a lynch, which is what the scum are looking for. The pro-town wouldn't have momentum as their top priority as long as they gain information to help them decide who's who, right?

I find your lateness in voting TPT as an attempt to create momentum again on something that looked like a lynch was going to happen. Then when you unvote him, the explanation does not cut it at all. It is like, 'this is what scum would have thought and done earlier', I'm just doing it later so I'm not scum.

[habitang]

EBWOP: The second quote of Jahudo ends with him unvoting TPT.

[nureins]

@Nureins: Habitang actually made a couple of decent points against Jahudo throughout the thread if I recall correctly.

Among a dozen, a couple is not a lot. I consider habitang a very weak player, and perceive his way of reasoning flawed.

Also, question for you: How does your perception of Jahudo's consistency (waits to gather evidence for a while prior to voting) correlate to his vote on habitang?

Personally I don't think he has been consistent in that manner as you do, but I'd like to see your answer to the above question.

I dont find him as much consistent as Andycyca (but consider also that tighting yourself to play with "RULES" in mind, is very easy for consistency). I wanted to hear your opinion about which kind of consistency was more scummier. You tried to answer all my questions, so that is good.

Now, with respect to your question, when I analyzed habitang's votes, I found his vote correct, as it was seriously reasoned. But after your words, I have thought a little bit more. This does not mean you have convinced me, but Im open to reasonings and like to discuss other people theories. My thoughts are the following.

I found Jahudo similar to my playstyle, as he waits to gather evidence, he makes reasoned posts, even he has said a bit above that it is his second game as mine, etc). I do not mind to cast some votes to sniff around, even I could cast a fourth vote as his if this would serve to make someone to react and participate if that person is lurking. But If I would have to decide to put a fourth vote on someone like habitang, probably id need a lot of security. This is so because he is already participating, and indeed, participating a lot. And more importantly because jahudo had a vis a vis with habitang and probably perceived how weak this player is. So putting a fourth vote in someone who is so weak and will talk crap when defending is dangerous.

@jahudo: do you consider habitang a weak player ? do you consider him a person that, in a position of a townie, could say stupid things and defend poorly ? If so, do you consider your fourth vote a bit dangerous (in other words, HOW SURE are you about him) ? Let me add that the point Goat raises in 378 (although i need to carefully read) sounds serious to me, so please dedicate time to answer these questions...you just wanted habit to talk you said, and that is something you might use in future steps. And this is connected to my point. You put a fourth vote to "make talk" someone you had seen talking really a lot, and in your mind, his talk was very poor...

@Nureins: Why does a weaker player attacking another player make that other player more likely to be town? Are you suggesting that a weak player is always going to be wrong day 1?

I did not say "make the other player more likely to be town". I said "make the other player to appear as.." or something like that. Nobody is rational. If you see someone defending against a weak player, his arguments seem more solid than they are. Even if I do not see strong withdraws in Jahudo, your case has influenced me for sure as it is quite reasoned. I also want to read Jahudo's answer with pause. Now Ythill also answered correctly, as he realized he misunderstood again and didnt doubt to admit it to someone with whom he had a fierce debate (well, he started the mail asking if I was threating him for pointing him out that he was seeing ghosts again, but he admitted a misunderstanding instead of developing such crap, so I feel is ok ). But Cass is also reading the aspects of the case that I consider "defend" jahudo, and Cass is iceberg-plain-townie for me.
In any case, Ill be looking carefully while tritch appears and starts to talk about tpt's behavior...

[Simenon]

Goat, I'm not convinced by his apologetic tone as of late, and I didn't find the "partner" comment was too out of place until I heard his later defense of it, which is muddled and hard to believe.

[Cass]

I don't find anyone in this particular debate suspicious, certainly not suspicious enough for a lynch... In fact, though it's very far from ideal, if there was a deadline situation right now, I'd preferably vote the empty TPT/Tritch slot, or even the empty Matin-slot over anyone else They feel the scummiest, but because they are gone, they can't defend or do anything else to change it. Which is bloody annoying.

[Ythill]

@ Jah: You didn't answer my points about the ad hom, the weak arguments, or the unreasonable difference between the tone of your vote and the evidence leading to it in #311.

Now Ythill also answered correctly, as he realized he misunderstood again and didnt doubt to admit it to someone with whom he had a fierce debate...

Not to argue against myself but I've done this a fair amount as scum as well, so it's really a null-tell. I'm always willing to admit when I'm wrong, which should tell you (and others) something about the earlier argument between you and I, where I didn't admit such things.

...he started the mail asking if I was threating him for pointing him out that he was seeing ghosts again...

You were not "pointing out" that I was seeing ghosts (or focusing too strongly on a single statement), you told me not to do those things, which is different. Telling somebody not to do something can imply consequences. I was asking if that was what you meant... as well as telling you that no concequence you could offer would cause me to abandon what I see as optimal play.

Though I still haven't done my reread, I'm going to change my explicit suspect list to: Jah, nuriens, & Cass. Still not sure about habit's alignment but the actions around his wagon have cleared him enough to bump him out of the top three.

[Jahudo]

I think this addresses your other points, Ythill. Next I'll compile all my suspicions and opinions along the way with habitang because I think some people see the sudden change of voting confidence without the buildup.

Also what benefit of the doubt? That you don't think before you type because you've said its stupidity? That you're inexperienced? That you're not experienced with your role?

This picks up the unreasonable argument Andy already questioned and runs with it: whether a player is new to the game or to the role. The hole in the argument is that a player with experience as town will play better as scum.

The quote also contains unecesarry ad hom aimed at a player who was already against the ropes a few votes ago. Intended to draw further emotional outbursts? Maybe.

I don’t catch how Andy’s suspicions addressed habit’s appeal to inexperience. Andy had three points 1) fake defense against nothing in particular, 2) defense based on feelings, 3) OMGUS attitude.

What I meant towards habit was: what doubt should we have that your post is from a frustrated townie or scum, that we should draw a conclusion from it and, if not, what are we overlooking?

------------------

Not only am I going on a rave, I think that if I just let everything go, then maybe you will see me better.

This post certainly changed my position of you, yes.

Vote: habitang

This statement is very empty. Its tone says that Jah caught on to some really convincing evidence, but the case he gives amounts to very little and all of it full of holes. Jah has shown himself to be intelligent and perceptive. Why would such minor evidence change his mind so strongly?

I did not present my individual points throughout this game towards habit but I was committed to find out more in this case and not ignore a chance to get a better read on habit. When I said my position changed it was the erratic, frustrated behavior that I did not see up until then. I saw it as uncharacteristic. We saw how he defended against very little pressure and could expand our view by adding more pressure and get an explanation.

Ythill also mentioned my weak arguments and shift in opinion before 311 and after. I will compile a post by post walkthrough of my suspicions and feelings towards habitang to make this more straightforward. In truth, some of the reads on habit are from his posting of me and it has been difficult not to have a OMGUS type attitude when this is the case, and I don’t think most of our accusations of one another have had that effect.

--------------------

I still need more in terms of why you voted TPT so late,

It wasn’t late because I was not jumping on his vote using the reasons others used to initially vote for him. (that is, his interaction with Matin and the joke response to a joke response to a joke vote, etc). My case against him was different because I saw him as continually avoiding serious thought on the group and consideration to scum-hunting. Whenever he voted or expressed opinion, he cancelled it out with a joke. I felt that scum could have done this to stay active and look active but not pursuing a serious disagreement with town.

-----------------------

If you were unfamiliar with masons, then why did you specifically use the term "partner." My thought was that you were implying that they were scum buddies together. That's how I initially read that as, and how it looked to me based in context with the rest of your post, especially the part where you FoS Simenon. Your FoS on Simenon implies that you find him scummy. Your statement that you believe them to be partners implies that they are of the same alignment, thus I think it's a fairly safe assumption that you were accusing them of both being scum buddies. Is this correct?

I used "partner" because I thought he was suggesting they shared role pm’s: the only way to be 100% at this point. Even when I wrote it the statement seemed funny because no one would claim scum and the only other partnered role in this setup might be mason I guess? In hindsight it was an overreaction to writing I had not seen in this game before and didn’t know what to make of. The newbie game taught me to be clear and truthful, so I regarded this as keeping from us a substance-based opinion.

[Ythill]

I don’t catch how Andy’s suspicions addressed habit’s appeal to inexperience.

I never said that they did. I said that Andy had discredited the

inexepienced player vs. inexperienced scum

argument. He did so while talking about nuriens...

That theory about him being an experienced-player-but-first-time-scum doesn't make any sense. An experienced player would know a better approach to the game, both as scum and town (even more, if person X has been protown a long time, he knows how to think protown)

What I meant towards habit was: what doubt should we have that your post is from a frustrated townie or scum, that we should draw a conclusion from it and, if not, what are we overlooking?

But that's not what you said. You gave three examples of potential reasons we should give habit the benefit of the doubt. The only one that assumed he was scum (which seemed to be your opinion of him) suggested that he was inexperienced with his role and was posted as opposed to him being inexperienced altogether.

Please explain how the sentiment posted in #311 and your new rewording equate.

My point was that the argument had already been discredited. You didn't address that and therefore the argument was weak. I don't believe that a weak argument is scummy in and of itself, but when a vote change and opinion change are accompanied by only a few weak arguments from an intelligent player, it rings bells.

I look forward to your synopsis of suspicions (and, probably, to picking them apart).

[Erratus Apathos]

Vote Count

habitang: (3) nhat, Simenon, Andycyca
Tritch: (2) Cass, nureins
Jahudo: (2) Goatrevolt, Ythill
Ectomancer: (1) Tritch
Andycyca: (1) habitang


Not voting: Matin, Ectomancer, Jahudo

[Erratus Apathos]

Ectomancer and nhat have been prodded.

[nureins]

@all: Is Tritch playing ? He has only posted once and has said nothing !

@Tritch: May you answer our points ?

@Jahudo: I know you've answered thousands of points, but, would you mind to answer my questions ?

[Cass]

Tritch is being replaced. As is Matin. It's been that way for... some time.

[nhat]

I'm just being lazy at this point. Too much reading, too little enjoyment. I've got 4 words for you long-winded MFers - half short, twice strong.

Habitang's glad the heat's off him, that's for sure and making a show of scumhunting, trying to get back into the mix while the suspicions slowly die down.

My other suspect inexplicably abandoned the game. Twice. Nowhere to go besides waiting for the replacement.

The only other thing I see is GoatRevolt's argument against Jahudo, which was quite coherent, and is continuing to punk him at will.

[habitang]

Habitang's glad the heat's off him, that's for sure

QFT

[Ectomancer]

Tritch is being replaced. As is Matin. It's been that way for... some time.

Makes the mods threat to replace me if I dont post a bit hollow.

I'm listening to the discussion right now. The main point on my mind is whether Simenon's opinion that Habitang was being fake is correct or not. If so, he is likely scum.

I've got 4 words for you long-winded MFers - half short, twice strong.

[Jahudo]

Re: nureins post 383

@jahudo: do you consider habitang a weak player ?

I don’t think so. It might be more appropriate to say he’s more inexperienced than some others here and is still learning aspects of the game, but so am I.

do you consider him a person that, in a position of a townie, could say stupid things and defend poorly ? If so, do you consider your fourth vote a bit dangerous (in other words, HOW SURE are you about him) ?

His post 306 came very suddenly and had the look of a defeated player but his posts before that did not build up to this act.

Votes at that point could have caused him to give up hope, caused him to self-vote and claim, etc. My vote also could have spurred reaction from him directed at me or others, or for him to calm down or do a number of things.

I wasn’t sure I knew what he was by reading post 306 but I also was confidant he wasn’t in danger like he said he was. My experience is in one 9 person setup so when I see a 7 to lynch it feels like more pressure is necessary to get more genuine responses than a 5 to lynch requires.

----------------
Ythill: I see now how the argument of experienced play but first time scum applies. By looking at his previous games this is habit’s fourth and has been town three times already so should better know how to think pro-town even if he isn’t now.

But if he knows how to behave then how can you explain post 306? 306 wasn’t crafted very well like Simenon originally said and should be a clear sign of scum attempting a townie emotional appeal if it’s fake like Ecto just said.

More referring to his previous game, habit was lynched day 1 and self-voted before being killed. He ended up town that time so you can argue that it was frustration / a feeling that pressure from others wouldn’t lift no matter what you say, how many times you say it, etc.

But do we believe that he hasn’t learned to avoid what put that last nail in his coffin last time around? Maybe it’s something that can’t easily be helped?

[nureins]

do you consider him a person that, in a position of a townie, could say stupid things and defend poorly ? If so, do you consider your fourth vote a bit dangerous (in other words, HOW SURE are you about him) ?

His post 306 came very suddenly and had the look of a defeated player but his posts before that did not build up to this act.

Votes at that point could have caused him to give up hope, caused him to self-vote and claim, etc. My vote also could have spurred reaction from him directed at me or others, or for him to calm down or do a number of things.

I wasn’t sure I knew what he was by reading post 306 but I also was confidant he wasn’t in danger like he said he was. My experience is in one 9 person setup so when I see a 7 to lynch it feels like more pressure is necessary to get more genuine responses than a 5 to lynch requires.

I would have expected a more elaborated defense in case jahudo was scum. That sounded very natural to me, and why not I could have felt the same to see more about habitang. Maybe his vote was not very appropiate, as he deviated attention from habitang to himself, but I dont find him especially suspicious.

From the list of votes to habitang, I yet find Andycyca and Simenon as the more unreasoned ones and for me, the more suspicious (if any). Reading their posts, it is hard to say if they believe habitang is suspicious or why...

[Erratus Apathos]

Citizen Karne replaces Matin.

[Citizen Karne]

Hello, I am replacing Matin. I am currently rereading the game so far to figure out who, if anyone, needs my vote or if anything worthy of suspicion has flown under the radar.

Also I am quite pleased to see Mr. Simenon is also in this game.