Mini 617 - Scottish Mafia, Game Over

[massive]

If he thought EA was scum and dcorbe was bussing, why wouldn't he leave his vote on EA? Why would he unvote EA to go after dcorbe?

[q21]

So you attacked dcorbe on day one for what you thought was bussing EA, then when EA flipped scum, you felt vindicated and continued to attack dcorbe?

On day one I didn't think EA was scum, I pointed out what looked like dcorbe contradicting himself and said I didn't agree with the extent of the wagon. When EA did flip scum, the way dcorbe had jumped off at the first opportunity and complained about the wagon suddenly being useless and then jumped back on when it became obvious that EA was going down made me think he was bussing.

[massive]

Do you still think that dcorbe's play on Day One was worthy of your attention, given that EA flipped scum?

[massive]

Well, since no one seems to be making progress ... I guess I'll pick up my reread where I left off.

I still want an answer to my question for

roflcopter

in [617].

q21, roflcopter, and Lowell all probably should get scumpoints for their votes for kuribo in retrospect. Lowell probably less than the other two, as he at least remembers that EA had a similar temper tantrum when caught as scum, AND had asked questions of kuribo leading up to the lynch. But q21 and rofl seem to stay away from it (both intimating that they are against a kuribo lynch) until he "claims" ... and then they vote for him. Relevant posts: [317-343].

Day 3 (?): q21 buddies Mirth and follows her onto Lowell. Mirth calls him on it. She kinda drops it though.

[388]:

roflcopter

(again): If by virtue of the EA bandwagon, dcorbe and kuribo were "obviously not scum," how was it you came to believe his "claim" as scum during his lynch?

[392]: Mirth points out that blocking Emp / killing Cephrir (again) (over killing either Emp or dcorbe/his replacement) makes little strategic sense for the Mafia. Can anything useful be gleaned from this observation?

Same goes for the godfather discussion that happens right around here. We should probably look at that in light of Mirth/dcorbe actually NOT being the godfather.

[408]:

Lowell

, how do you feel about the likelihood of a Mafia roleblocker now?

[413]: q21 brings up Emp's sanity as another "questionable" that shouldn't be assumed. I can't see any reason to assume Emp's sanity would be anything other than "straight", simply because why would the Mafia roleblock him if dcorbe WASN'T town? The Mafia was assuming that Empking was a true cop. Why wouldn't q21?

[424]: Lowell continues to believe that there is no Mafia roleblocker.

[439]:

Empking

: You mention that you might not be reliable in finding scum but don't clarify, which is fine for yesterday. Now we're in LYLO, can you maybe be more specific?

Still not sure how Lowell avoided a roleclaim in posts [480-500].

That's my thoughts through today. Any discussions you guys want to have?

[q21]

Do you still think that dcorbe's play on Day One was worthy of your attention, given that EA flipped scum?

Yes.

[q21]

Massive

With respect to your [413] comments: The post was part of a discussion in which rotflcopter was calling me scummy for not labelling Mirth definite town. The reason I wouldn't do that is that it requires an assumption and I don't like making assumptions in this game. I didn't say it was likely that either she was a godfather or Emp was insane (hell, I was never going to vote for her) just that they were possibilities which made assuming Mirth confirmed town invalid in my eyes.

And who says the scum were assuming Emp was a true finder anyway?

[Lowell]

At this point I'd consider a mafia roleblocker much more likely. Basically, either Emp is scum or there's a mafia roleblocker. I tend to believe the latter, because I think a fake finder claim wouldn't then undermine himself by saying "no result" every night. If there's a roleblocker they're probably intentionally keeping him alive, knowing that he won't do anything useful and begging us to ask the "hey, why are you still alive if you're so powerful?" question.

I'm now leaning towards q21. I feel like I've been right about him all along. My new scumlist, assuming lynch or lose:

q21- 95% scum
massive- 50% scum
rofl- 50% scum
emp- 5% scum

massive has handled himself well, I think.

[massive]

Well, we know dcorbe/Mirth came up as innocent and was actually innocent, so we have a bit of hindsight that the Mafia already knew. At that point of Empking's roleclaim and target reveal, the Mafia already know he's either true or naive. If we continue the thought process with the assumption that the Mafia do have a roleblocker, Empking seems like the most likely target, since Mafia wouldn't want to wait to find out which of those he specifically is before blocking him. (Cause that would mean he investigated a Mafia.) I think the Mafia assuming 'true' in this case is probably their safest play.

(Well, their safest play would probably have been to kill Empking, but what do I know.)

I think also that the death of the doctor and the abundance of plain townies means they didn't need to try and block anyone else. dcorbe played his vig role under the radar, which I think is the right way to do it. (Too many people, especially on this site, are content to just shoot and shoot and shoot.)

In [377], you call Mirth "cop-cleared" with an indication that you were suspicious of her (as dcorbe) but now you aren't. That was Sunday, July 13. [413] happens on Monday. Can you talk about why you seem to trust her less by [413]?

[Lowell]

vote q21

. No guts no glory. Someone has to do it.

Congrats scum if I'm wrong.

[q21]

Well, we know dcorbe/Mirth came up as innocent and was actually innocent, so we have a bit of hindsight that the Mafia already knew. At that point of Empking's roleclaim and target reveal, the Mafia already know he's either true or naive. If we continue the thought process with the assumption that the Mafia do have a roleblocker, Empking seems like the most likely target, since Mafia wouldn't want to wait to find out which of those he specifically is before blocking him. (Cause that would mean he investigated a Mafia.) I think the Mafia assuming 'true' in this case is probably their safest play.

(Well, their safest play would probably have been to kill Empking, but what do I know.)

Okay, taking hindsight into account determine what the mafia were assuming is going a step further than I was thinking.

I think also that the death of the doctor and the abundance of plain townies means they didn't need to try and block anyone else. dcorbe played his vig role under the radar, which I think is the right way to do it. (Too many people, especially on this site, are content to just shoot and shoot and shoot.)

In [377], you call Mirth "cop-cleared" with an indication that you were suspicious of her (as dcorbe) but now you aren't. That was Sunday, July 13. [413] happens on Monday. Can you talk about why you seem to trust her less by [413]?

I trust her exactly the same in 413 and 377. What makes you think otherwise? The term "cop-cleared" comes with all the appropriate reservations that I mentioned along the way.

[q21]

vote q21

. No guts no glory. Someone has to do it.

Congrats scum if I'm wrong.

Scum trying to end discussion and therefore the day?

Personally not ready to vote yet.

[Lowell]

^^^^^ makes me think I'm right

[Empking]

Well, since no one seems to be making progress ... I guess I'll pick up my reread where I left off.

I still want an answer to my question for

roflcopter

in [617].

q21, roflcopter, and Lowell all probably should get scumpoints for their votes for kuribo in retrospect. Lowell probably less than the other two, as he at least remembers that EA had a similar temper tantrum when caught as scum, AND had asked questions of kuribo leading up to the lynch. But q21 and rofl seem to stay away from it (both intimating that they are against a kuribo lynch) until he "claims" ... and then they vote for him. Relevant posts: [317-343].

Day 3 (?): q21 buddies Mirth and follows her onto Lowell. Mirth calls him on it. She kinda drops it though.

[388]:

roflcopter

(again): If by virtue of the EA bandwagon, dcorbe and kuribo were "obviously not scum," how was it you came to believe his "claim" as scum during his lynch?

[392]: Mirth points out that blocking Emp / killing Cephrir (again) (over killing either Emp or dcorbe/his replacement) makes little strategic sense for the Mafia. Can anything useful be gleaned from this observation?

Same goes for the godfather discussion that happens right around here. We should probably look at that in light of Mirth/dcorbe actually NOT being the godfather.

[408]:

Lowell

, how do you feel about the likelihood of a Mafia roleblocker now?

[413]: q21 brings up Emp's sanity as another "questionable" that shouldn't be assumed. I can't see any reason to assume Emp's sanity would be anything other than "straight", simply because why would the Mafia roleblock him if dcorbe WASN'T town? The Mafia was assuming that Empking was a true cop. Why wouldn't q21?

[424]: Lowell continues to believe that there is no Mafia roleblocker.

[439]:

Empking

: You mention that you might not be reliable in finding scum but don't clarify, which is fine for yesterday. Now we're in LYLO, can you maybe be more specific?

Still not sure how Lowell avoided a roleclaim in posts [480-500].

That's my thoughts through today. Any discussions you guys want to have?

My role doesn't say I find mafia, scum or bad guy but rather uses other descriptive words.

[roflcopter]

responding to massive:

roflcopter: In [286], you say that, and I quote, "i thought erratus was making himself pretty obvious with how upset he was getting over being caught for something he must have considered to be a stupid reason." You say something similar when you vote for EA, yet in [111] you unvote him when he asks to be replaced, saying you don't know if it's a town tell or a scum tell. Can you speak to why him asking to be replaced (as a potential town tell) overrode his anger at being caught for a stupid reason (as an obvious scum tell)?

i had never before this game seen someone ask to be replaced because of being under intense in-game pressure, so i was confused. after some thought, and being encouraged by several others sticking to the ea wagon, i decided it didn't outweigh the copious evidence that had been marshalled against him.

roflcopter (again): If by virtue of the EA bandwagon, dcorbe and kuribo were "obviously not scum," how was it you came to believe his "claim" as scum during his lynch?

i assumed (obviously naively) that town wouldn't do something so stupid as claiming scum and asking to be lynched. for all of the evidence i believed there was to clear kuribo, hearing from the horse's mouth the scum claim obviously outweighed my own essentially uninformed opinion.

i think lowell's vote for q21 makes it clear that the two of them are not scum together. this is not a situation when bussing makes sense, since if the scum can get any townie to vote for another townie then they win straight away. of course i've been pretty confident for a long time that lowell was town and q21 was scum, but this seals it, and makes me sure that q's parter has to be massive, since as has been pointed out its all but assured that empking's claim is truthful and there is a mafia roleblocker.

vote: q21

[massive]

vote q21

[starkmoon]

Vote Count

Q21 3 (Lowell, rofl, massive)

Q21

townie

died....


Grats to our scum Massive and rofl

[massive]

I think the best thing that happened to us, as scum, was EA's implosion on day one. I think it would have been REALLY hard to try and protect him in the middle of the game. (In all honesty, I forgot I was scum in this game on day one and was really happy when he flipped scum ... until I got a night PM from rofl and remembered he was on my team. *snicker*)

The town mislynches were entirely too easy. I don't know why people play this game if all they're going to do is give up.

Apologies to Cephrir for killing him two nights in a row. =]

[Mirth]

I just have to say yet again that Q was so obviously townie it hurt.

I killed Cyb because she was in my top 3 (with Lowell and Rofl, congrats Massive, you had me fooled) and I did not want a lurker going to endgame, wanted to narrow the field a bit, and I didn't think you'd NK me over Emp. (Seriously? The hell? I get that he was one of the more useless players here, but why let the cop live? And why kill Ceph again over either of us?)

I also was very very very tempted to suicide when I replaced in and I think Kuribo should be declared an unofficial winner for getting out of this game. Town deserved to lose.

[kuribo]

Stupidest town EVER.

I TOLD you guys massive was scum, and that he was just aching to see me lynched, but NOOOO, you guys just had to listen to him and Empking.

I'm glad we lost.

[kuribo]

I don't know why people play this game if all they're going to do is give up.

Because Empking was giving me migraines and I chose to falseclaim scum rather than kill myself in real life.


And also, I was HOPING that some pro-town player or another would look at my bandwagon and the opportunism behind it and figure something out, but by god, the town was determined to Larry Moe and Curly its way right through the game.

[roflcopter]

mirth, i wanted to block emp instead of kill him because i thought at some point we might be able to get him lynched. of course, the mod confirming him in thread kind of cocked that up for me. as for killing you instead of emp, its precisely because you were infinitely more useful for town and dangerous for us than the bump-on-a-log empking, and because you were on to me when basically nobody else except q21 was.

by saying town deserved to lose, are you saying scum did not earn the win?

[kuribo]

by saying town deserved to lose, are you saying scum did not earn the win?

for the record, I had no clue you were scum.

I think scum earned the win--- they did what scum are supposed to do: When town screws up, scum needs to take advantage, and you guys did it.

[Lowell]

Bah. Good game all. Well, no one said I was good at this game.

I thought scum played well. Enough with the passive-aggressive "we blew it" compliments. ROFL had me totally fooled until the field started closing in around me and he (and I) were both still alive. Massive did a great job talking his way out of trouble on the last day.

Emp and q21, sorry about the vote. In case you're curious, I felt a vote was warranted as I was pretty confident in my read on q21. Those situations usually come down to scum waiting for something dumb (see post 633), so I'd just as soon take my chances.

[massive]

Empking was a known commodity and was rendered useless; I agree that it was much more important to take out the unknown confirmed innocent. =]

I was definitely worried when I was suspected out of the gates on the last day, because it seemed like it came out of nowhere! So I busted my hump on that last day. I'd go a few pages, ask a few questions, see if anyone would run with it ... no? OK, a few more pages ... I was really worried what would happen if I got to the end and nothing further had happened. =]

[Mirth]

This still doesn't answer why you guys killed Ceph before me. (Also was one of you a roleblocker?)