Newbie 655: Zeroville. (Game Over!)

[WhereIsTony]

bit of a quandry here.


Pop acted pretty scummy but, his replacement may not come off as such.

Not sure idf i should re-assess based on the new guy, or consider that the new guy may just be a better player.

[M4yhem]

I'll skim the previous posts to glean the drift of the thread and the accusations, but are there any post/s in particular that you wish to direct my attention to?

I'd like you to read the whole thread and then give us your opinion on all the players, arranged in order of most to least suspicious, with your comments as to why you put them in that order. Thanks.

I'd be happy to wait a couple of days for that.

Another question: what means do have to throw off this incorrect yoke of suspicion?

If you show, by your actions, that you are interested in finding mafia that would do for me.

I've already Roleclaimed; do I need to address the objections against Pope's Tiara?

You could give us your opinion on why he acted as he did.

Or do I merely need to throw the suspicions on a scummier candidate? (because I assure you, I am NOT a villain)

You need to do both- defend yourself and find someone you think is mafia. It's not easy, but like I said, I will give you a couple of days to read and make up your mind before I put you under pressure.

Not sure idf i should re-assess based on the new guy, or consider that the new guy may just be a better player.

Both.

[tumescence]

Thank you all, for chosing to at least partially evaluate me on MY posts.

I am still reading through the posts (I'm having diffiulty keeping all the identities straight, and I get limited internet time as it is); I just want to dispatch off 1 thing that seems

VERY

obvious to me.

Some people, like WhereIsTony, JonMW have asserted that Tiara "claimed cop". I don't think Tiara ever did that. Here are Tiara's exact words:

You wouldn't want to vote off a cop, would you? I mean, we don't know what anyone is, and my user name is p. cool.

Tiara was merely implying that there was the POSSIBILITY that he was a cop. He was arguing that, since "we don't know what anyone is", Mayh4m COULD have been voting on a cop. Tiara was trying to point out the dangers of that. In the next sentence, Tiara offered a better alternative: voting for someone who's inactive.

The fact that WhereIsTony and JonMW have misunderstood/distorted Tiara's meaning seems suspicious to me. Also, the fact that noone pointed this misunderstanding/distortion out earlier is strange.

(I have not communiated with Tiara yet, so it's possible I'm misunderstanding him.)

[tumescence]

Btw off topic, any previous mafia type experience?

I played

half

a mafia game earlier; the game was ended prematurely because one of the mafia, in addition to severely insulting everyone, purposely revealed the names of his fellow mafia.

I'm a noob, but I'm familiar with Mafia terminology, because I have perused the wiki and some archived games. [/i]

[M4yhem]

I knew what Tiara was saying, I just thought that pointing out 'I might be a cop' as your first line of defense is a bit dodgy. As I said then, any kind of discussion of power roles is a bad idea because it hints to scum what people might be. Also, it's basically frightening people out of voting for you by saying 'but what if you're wrong?'

Bad tactics, tbh.

[J_Slr]

Well I hope the idiot got what was coming!

[JonMW]

tumescence, to answer your question... M4yhem basically just summed it up nicely. To my mind, the cop should avoid being identified to the very best of his/her ability. Actually roleclaiming cop, or even hinting that you might be cop (because that is what it seemed like to me at the time) should only be an absolute last resort.

...and welcome to the game, tume.

[somedamnkid]

Welcome Tume.

to answer, albeit belated, M4yhem's question from page 7:

I cannot say any specific time that Whereistony should have changed his vote, and looking back i think i have miscommunicated. I didn't mean that Whereistony was suspicious specifically for not changing his vote and investigating. That was a sign that he was not scumhunting as hard as I thought he should be, Which is what i thought to be suspicious.

[tumescence]

ANALYSIS ON PLAYERS:
Syphen:
Has posted and scumhunted very little. Moreover, he gives very weak reasons for his votes. Initially, he random voted for Tony, but then changed his vote to Pope, saying that Pope's "nervousness screams scum". Later on, he voiced agreement to Tony's reasons for voting Pope, saying: "some of the reasons you just pointed out Tony, are the same reasons I changed my vote to Pope." But Syphen didn't elaborate which were the "some" reasons that he agreed with, he just nodded his head. Verdict: very suspicious.

WhereIsTony:
Seems scummy. First, he had a bunch of one-line posts early on, and only started posting more content under pressure. Second, he was voting for Pope based on factual errors. He said that "Pope claims to be cop". His lengthy post#106 on why Pope is scum, when analyzed, is actually very weak, in my opinion (if someone wants, I can analyze that post and show why). Hehe...( I think I am unconsciously biased against him because he sometimes uses improper punctuation.)

JonMW:
I'm getting a mixed reading. One one hand, as others have pointed out, he has been fickle in his voting, changing votes to escape tension. Furthermore, he has occasionally misrepresented Pope, saying Pope has "attempted to repel votes by claiming to be cop". On other hand, he gives off a townie vibe to me in some posts, such as #121... he has explained the reasons behind why he vacillated in his votes (a habit of CryWolf), and his logic seems internally consistent. He also gave off a nothing-to-hide vibe to me, when he responded to my previous post.

MichelSableheart:
I am suspicious of him. His wiki page tells us that in his very first Newbie game 389, Michel was Mafia, but managed to "play a solid pro-town game during day 1 and day 2." He seems adept at faked innocence. In this game, his posts have generally been constructive, but it is difficult to tell whether they're as helpful as they might have been. Summary: be very cautious of Michel.

SomeDamnKid:
I am unable to get a reading on him. The only thing about him is that he is TOO aggressive.

J_Sir:
He seems the most townie to me, at the moment. His analysis seems honest and cautious.

M4yhem:
Seems slightly townie; his questions have been probing, and his analysis has generally moved the discussion forward. It is possible that as an IC mafia, he is deceiving us. However, he was one of the first people to unvote me, and since I know that I am innocent, I'm leaning towards believing him.

Yuu:
I can't get a proper reading on her. In principal, I lean towards suspecting/lynching the inactive players (and Yuu WAS initially inactive).But some other players such as J_Sir, M4yhem, etc. have said they get a townie reading on her.
----------------------------

WHO I THINK WE COULD LYNCH TODAY:
Syphen
WhereIsTony
JonMW

------------------------------

SOME QUESTIONS:
J_Sir, M4yhem etc.,
Could you elaborate on why you get a townie reading on Yuu?

JonMW:
I notice that you haven't commented on Yuu at all. What do you think of her?

[tumescence]

I knew what Tiara was saying, I just thought that pointing out 'I might be a cop' as your first line of defense is a bit dodgy. As I said then, any kind of discussion of power roles is a bad idea because it hints to scum what people might be. Also, it's basically frightening people out of voting for you by saying 'but what if you're wrong?'

Bad tactics, tbh.

I agree, it was bad tactics. I can't really defend it, except say that I think Tiara did it from good intentions.

Well I hope the idiot got what was coming!

He got a month's suspension. Not solely for breaking game-rules, but for also his savage in-game behaviour.

Actually roleclaiming cop, or even

hinting that you might be cop (because that is what it seemed like to me at the time)

should only be an absolute last resort.

a) This contradicts what you posted earlier. Earlier, in Post#121, you said Pope "claimed cop".
b) Pope didn't even "hint" he might be cop. "Hint" is too strong a word. He merely reminded M4yhem of the possibility that he could be a cop, given the contemporary ignorance.

[JonMW]

There is no contradiction. I am trying to communicate to you that a clever player never identifies himself as cop if he wants to avoid being NKed. However, this is exactly what Pope did. Conclusion: Pope did not make a very good play at that point.

Next... the distinction between a hint, and a mention of a possibility... I don't think that there's much distinction at all. It's all there in text with no nuance, no whispering. Why would he bring up such a point unless he was attempting to make others think of him as a

potential

cop?
If a real cop made the exact same indication - but with stronger, no-doubt-about-it language... for example heading and ending all his posts with

"I AM A COP"

then the townies still cannot trust him, because all he has is words. It could easily be a mafia member, duping them into lynching one townie after another.
So townies cannot take any indication of cop as more than a

potential

truth - and that is what pope did.
So if the end situation is exactly the same for all degrees of roleclaiming cop, for all parts of the spectrum - from possibility, to suggestion, to hint, to outright claim - then all degrees of the action are perfectly equable to my mind.

[JonMW]

Oh, and my reading on Yuu?
Seems like stereotypical movie character of the innocent, sweet type. Then my cynical side kicks in and tells me that she's probably mafia because it would be so wonderfully ironic.

Would be nice if she posted more. Knowing more about a person always helps.

[J_Slr]

SOME QUESTIONS:
J_Sir, M4yhem etc.,
Could you elaborate on why you get a townie reading on Yuu?

From my list:

6. Yuu - Starts by claiming newbie status, is unsure of self. Though with a low post count has made her opinion known. I am almost sure she is town but that could of course be an act which is apparently working.

Those are my reasons and I am willing to admit that yes, it is possible I am being taken for a ride, and if so, Yuu well done. The thing is that even though I get town vibes, I am not about to stop watching her.

To my mind she sitting in the perfect position for a roled player either scum or town.

No one seems to suspect her of anything, but her appearance has been some what lacking of late and yes, getting a better reading her would be nice. So I hereby

Vote: Yuu

In the hope that maybe you will talk a little more.

Please do not get me wrong, at this point I would like to say that Syphen and Somedamnkid are the ones I see as scum. (and dont worry tumescence, I am not about to overlook you just because you replaced The Pope's Tiara)

Oh and @tumescence: its J_S'L'r people seem to think its an I for some reason...

[Yuu]

Hi there!
I by myself thought the game was going pretty slow, with Syphen getting away for a few days and Pope being replaced - I felt like I had nothing else to add than general opinion, and I feel a post that adds something is better than just a 'hi, I'm there, and I agree with everybody else' - the sort of thing that made me look down on Tony's first posts.

Besides that, I admit I felt a little angry, I mean, the reading you made of someone is worthless, since there comes another one who plays in an entirely different way- no offenses, Tumescence! If Pope couldn't play, that's okay, life happens, but I feel somehow cheated on, since we already had our opinion on everyone - and the role of Pope and Tumescence now is all... blurry. Pope acted suspicious (I believe for being so impulsive), and now Tumescence doesn't. It makes his case way more difficult.

I guess thanks to J_Slr now is the time to M4yhem have his question answered, then.

I'll try and post more, and be more useful to the town - if I understand right, people are doubting me for not getting a reading (which is totally understandable - if I'm not making myself clear, it's better for the mafia) and, well, the traditional Agatha Christie rule that the one people don't think that is the murder is the murder? Lol I'll just assume you're kidding in that one, Jon.

[Erg0]

Vote Count

tumescence 2 (WhereIsTony, Syphen)
Syphen 2 (tumescence, M4yhem)
WhereIsTony 1 (somedamnkid)
JonMW 1 (Yuu)
Yuu 1 (J_Slr)

Not Voting 2 (JonMW, MichelSableheart)

9 alive, 5 to lynch.

Going to issue some prods, and a deadline will follow soon after.

[tumescence]

Syphen, WhereIsTony:
Your lack of self-defense is making me progressively more suspicious of you. Defend yourselves!

Conclusion: Pope did not make a very good play at that point.

Agreed. But what is it about playing unskillfully that made Pope

so

suspicious in your eyes? Many townies, especially noobs, play unskillfully.

Next... the distinction between a hint, and a mention of a possibility... I don't think that there's much distinction at all. It's all there in text with no nuance, no whispering. Why would he bring up such a point unless he was attempting to make others think of him as a potential cop?

There is a huge distinction between role-claiming and mentioning a possibility. Role-claiming might be done to "make others think of one as a potential cop", but mentioning a possibility, as Pope did, could be done to

point out the dangers of random-voting.

If a real cop made the exact same indication - but with stronger, no-doubt-about-it language... for example heading and ending all his posts with "I AM A COP" then the townies still cannot trust him, because all he has is words. It could easily be a mafia member, duping them into lynching one townie after another.
So townies cannot take any indication of cop as more than a potential truth - and that is what pope did.
So if the end situation is exactly the same for

all degrees of roleclaiming cop

, for all parts of the spectrum - from possibility, to suggestion, to hint, to outright claim - then all degrees of the action are perfectly equable to my mind.

But he WASN'T role-claiming cop at all! He was mentioning a possibility; he was reminding, cautioning M4yhem.

Your continued usage of the word "role-claiming" is perplexing. I define "role-claim" as "asserting a role". If you wish to continue decrying that Pope "role-claimed" cop, then show me how his words fit that definition.

[tumescence]

A question for the ICs (MichelSableHeart, M4yhem):
I think JonMW's logic above is patently flawed. Is this reasonable grounds to suspect him as scum? What do you think of JonMW and his reasoning?

[JonMW]

Well, I can't justify my logic any better than that. The reason that I hang onto this point so savagely is because it's all I have. You, in comparison, seem to have even less - your attention is focused on what I'm doing, and you seem to be spending all your energy on attacking me.

That makes two counts against the same "character" - one from Pope, and one from you.

Vote: tumescence

You think I'm wrong? Well then, who

should

I be voting for?

[WhereIsTony]

Syphen, WhereIsTony:
Your lack of self-defense is making me progressively more suspicious of you. Defend yourselves!

As stated in an earlier post I don't think defending yourself with a few accusation or votes is productive, i prefer to continue to hunt for scum, the best defense is taking out the Mafia.

I am starting to find Michel more scummy with his vasnishing for prolong periods showing up and throwing out a few theories.

It seems like he stirs things up sees what damage he does and then resurfaces once things have settled.

Could be scum baiting could be trying to turn the town on itself.

[Yuu]

A question for the ICs (MichelSableHeart, M4yhem):
I think JonMW's logic above is patently flawed. Is this reasonable grounds to suspect him as scum? What do you think of JonMW and his reasoning?

I know you're directing this particular questions to the mod, but-

I think everyone is prone to mistakes and, eventually, have a flaw in our logic. We aren't perfect ,and that's no indication someone is scum - except if this flaw somehow works out as hinting obviously at the poster. But voting at someone just because their logical deduction is flawed looks really hushed.

Ps: The one you talk about is his Jon's claims Pope claimed to be a cop, no? I somehow agree with him, actually. Even if Pope was only mentioning the probability, it sounded awfully like he was hinting at something to me.

[J_Slr]

I have to go with tumescence, attacking someone again and again because they mentioned the possibility they might be roled is a little silly, but continually making it sound like they actually claimed the role is going too far!

That being said I do not want people to stop looking at tumescence, keep watching him, but also look at Jon, he really really wants tumescenced lynched and I for one can not really see why?

@Tony: you raise a good point about Michel, maybe we should put some pressure on him to be a little more active?

[M4yhem]

A question for the ICs (MichelSableHeart, M4yhem):
I think JonMW's logic above is patently flawed. Is this reasonable grounds to suspect him as scum?

Yes, fairly reasonable. Since scum are lying about the reasons for their votes, their logic is often quite flawed. Of course, townies can mess up too; only Spock is a perfect logician.

His intentions are important too.

What do you think of JonMW and his reasoning?

I mostly agree with him. You are right that 'role-claim' is a phrase that normally means telling people what your role is.
But I think Jon is right when he says the Pope was implying that he could be a cop and I think that it is reasonable to assume Pope wanted people to think of him as a cop, if only for a moment.

Currents scores:
Syphen = 11
Pope's Tiara = 10
JonMW = 7
WhereIsTony = 6
somedamnkid =2

WHO I THINK WE COULD LYNCH TODAY:
Syphen
WhereIsTony
JonMW

New scores:
Syphen=14
WhereisTony=8
JonMW=8

M4yhem etc.,
Could you elaborate on why you get a townie reading on Yuu?

She started contributing when I asked her to, instead of getting defensive or continuing to lurk. So far, her points have been reasonable and she gives the impression of wanting to do her best to find scum.

I find J_Slr's most recent post somewhat scummy.

Fos:J_Slr

It seems like he is agreeing with everyone.

[WhereIsTony]

unvote

vote Michel

reason stated two or three posts ago

[M4yhem]

Okay, Syphen is leading the polls for 'most suspected person'. Is everybody comfortable with killing him if he's still in the lead after Michel and Syphen have made their lists?

[WhereIsTony]

I would Actually revisit my list

Tum
Michel
Jon

would be my top three