Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Citizen Karne]

I have finished my reread but, seeing as it is quite late where I am, do not trust my posting ability. Therefore, I will give my opinions tomorrow.

[nureins]

The question here is what

you

think. Habit is not a weak player? Habit is inexperienced? Habit is scummy? Habit is just a n00b? I am honstly confused as to your opinion.

Of course this is an interesting question. That I already answered when I commented Jahudo's case in a long post. If you make me to repeat everybody is gonna hate me

But being succint to help you, at the end of post 413 I said...(during all post 413 you can see my changing views on him during the game, more or less correlated with the list of posts by habit)

I interpret all that more like an inexperienced lost player looking for scum without realizing there are no certainties in this game and therefore desperating...So answering you, I dont think you are focusing too much on him. Probably the case is that he is focusing too much on you as you were the only fish he thought he could get.

[nureins]

Or maybe I'm just frustrated because your ramblings tend to focus on defending people who are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...

otherwise, I guess my point of view reaches to positive discussion on people around. Is there any of my points that you consider irrelevant or biased ? Please point it out. Id like to hear from you a little bit.

Indeed, your vote to habitang is the most unreasoned, and your first participation in the game was defending someone who was "perfectly capable of defending himself" by saying, hey guys, he is town. I prefer to give reasons for stating my opinions, that is obviously different.

And by the way, it sounds to me extremely suspicious that you have a vote on a player, Jahudo makes a full case on that player, and instead of making comments and read profusely, you ask this player to be concise, forget to comment on him and focus on ridiculous lurking things around him...

My vote remains on the new player until he decides to answer all the points about his old identity. My best lurking player vote up to now is the one I have.

My best active player lynch up to now is Simenon.

[sirdanilot]

I'm at page 14 now. I don't like goatrevolt's passiveness in this game, I have meta on him and he's far less passive in other games. I think I'm going to do a read on him after I'm done reading the entire thread (which is very hard to get through). And I'm aware that he has RL reasons for his absence, but that doesn't clear him in my book.

Habitang is the frustrated newbie town.

Nureins is the new players with a few games under his belt who is still figuring out his own play style. Although I'm in no way certain, I'd guess town. I didn't like the Goebbels thing though, and if he says that one more time I'm going to strangle him through my monitor.

Then Simenon, I get some scummy vibes. I might do a read on him some time.

I'm going to be finished reading the thread tomorrow, so expect some participation then.

[Cass]

Very good. My vote on your predecessor stays on you until then. After you and Karne have given your analysis I'll do some rereading too and see if there's a better place for that vote.

[Simenon]

Or maybe I'm just frustrated because your ramblings tend to focus on defending people who are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...

So, so, so wrong. Complete more than one game before you talk shit about mafia theory.

Indeed, your vote to habitang is the most unreasoned, and your first participation in the game was defending someone who was "perfectly capable of defending himself" by saying, hey guys, he is town. I prefer to give reasons for stating my opinions, that is obviously different.

Less verbose =/= less reasoned.

See? I managed to say that in four words, plus three symbols. You probably would have said it in at least seventeen paragraphs.

And by the way, it sounds to me extremely suspicious that you have a vote on a player, Jahudo makes a full case on that player, and instead of making comments and read profusely, you ask this player to be concise, forget to comment on him and focus on ridiculous lurking things around him...

Why?

Is there anything you would like me to comment on?

Otherwise, shut up.

[nureins]

Less verbose =/= less reasoned.

See? I managed to say that in four words, plus three symbols.

You probably would have said it in at least seventeen paragraphs.

Which makes my vote and my reasons clear to everyone, so I dont hide anything and seems protown for someone like me to whom you ask for completing games. Instead, you just say:

- TPT is town
- I agree with that, I vote for habitang.

And therefore you dont say anything in particular and you can justify later your assertions and votes in dozens of ways, allowing to hide and complicated the information.

Is there anything you would like me to comment on?

Yes, I want you to explicit your suspects and provide with reasoned arguments for your suspicions.

Otherwise, shut up.

Trying to occupy a position of superiority and making "inexperienced" people to shut up when they are participating and sharing information sounds to me quite scummy...

[Andycyca]

13: This is a good post. He gives an opinion on Nureins and I agree with it. I think it makes plenty of sense. He also throws a FoS on Habitang for suggesting no lynch. My question is why not a vote, and why did this not factor into his later reasons for voting habitang?

I FoS'ed habit because he came up with some setup speculation in a closed setup game, which is in itself suspicious. Then, we weren't even talking about it, so it's like throwing some bait-info waiting for us to take it.

Why not a vote? I don't find that post as scummy (or it's a pathetic scum attempt to redirect attention) Also, because nobody seemed to care to discuss such things.

I asked him why he started with this. Then, in 309 I asked how did he arrive to such conclusions. I don't recall him answering, so I can't add those to my case on him, unless you consider "for not answering questions" as a valid scum-tell (I prefer to use his answers/clarifications on the subject because I may be wrong and misunderstood him AND it gives us a little more info). If he refuses to answer chronically, I will list it as something more suspicious.

I don’t think I’m contradicting my suspicions by giving room for them to defend themselves. It’s just that I want to understand their posts = better and hear how they respond. I mentioned that I am inexperienced in this game, just my second game here, so if this playstyle is any bit awkward then I guess it’s because I’m still finding its disadvantages and advantages to this investigation style.

This is good.

-I’ve given my take on the coaching and lack of conviction you think I have. I don’t deny I’ve been doing something, but I would say I am sincere in getting reads through investigations and not hoping around my suspicions to see what will stick for a lynch.

This is nothing. We can't know for certain your POV on things.

I feel that some people saw only habit’s post 306 and ignored what he was doing up until that point. 306 was an obvious reason to vote, and any scum would have been happy to see habit write it. So I don’t think it is out of the question that scum can give momentum to a post like 306 even in the first 2 votes.

Mass Question:
I'd like to know if anyone who voted, or would have voted, for habit agree/disagree with the points I made not relating to post 306 and if they recognized or overlooked these habits of habitang.

I overlooked 1, 3 and 5. 5 is very interesting as it shows a very inconsistent player, I'll look a little bit deeper there.

...I think would be more accurate: This is what I have found out about him. So yeh I'm going to be happy with a Jahudo or an Andycyca lynch. Who knows? Maybe Vig can take care of the other one.

I'm fine with people wanting a lynch, but you fail in providing reasons for my lynch.

The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...

What? "Would" twice in the same phrase seems too confusing to me

My best active player lynch up to now is Simenon.

Why exactly (not counting the amount of words he writes)?

[nureins]

The only scenario under which Im able to see your frustration is that you are scum and you would like to lynch an innocent I would defend...

What? "Would" twice in the same phrase seems too confusing to me

Sorry for that. Shortening sentences is not my best skill.
Simenon expressed that he was frustrated due to my reasonings defending Jahudo. He expressed also a very strange sentence about people being able to defend themselves.

In my opinion, this is not a game about having more ability to attack or defend individually. So expressing my opinions on jahudo (and the rest of players) in an open way is exactly what I consider we should do: share information and approach to better lynches...

The only scenario under which he could be "frustrated" due to my opinions on jahudo is that he is scum trying to lynch an innocent and my reasoned defence stops him. Otherwise, I do not know why so much frustration with someone who tries to discuss and reason points of the game...

My best active player lynch up to now is Simenon.

Why exactly (not counting the amount of words he writes)?

summarizing:

1. His totally unreasoned defence of TPT that deviated attention.
2. His, in my opinion, totally incoherent defence of this vote later on when Cass and myself debated about that. He arrived to say that he was not interested in decreasing the number of votes in TPT, when he considered him town...
3. A poor attack on Cass that combined
- A misquote generating a sense of pairing with me
- A false argument about backtracking, since Cass never accused him of anything.

This lead me to vote him. We had kinda fierce debate and I stopped my vis a vis with him.

He has only mantained the same high place in my scumeter. In the late posts due to his
4. vote on habitang just "agreeing" with the person that initiated the wagon
5. Uninterest, in my opinion, in following the case on habitang, who is the person to whom he is voting for.
6. Trying to "eliminate" discussion among "inexperienced" players in his late "shut up" comment.

I cannot see how he has contributed to the game. He only post unreasoned comments, attack on the contrary the playstyle of players who desire to contribute and collaborate, as at least Cass, Habitang, Jahudo...

[sirdanilot]

Otherwise, shut up.

You can't tell people to shut up in this game. Sorry.

Finger of Shame Simenon

.

Back to my read.

[Simenon]

Otherwise, shut up.

You can't tell people to shut up in this game. Sorry.

Finger of Shame Simenon

.

Back to my read.

I get angry when new players try to lecture me on what "town would never" do.

[nureins]

Otherwise, shut up.

You can't tell people to shut up in this game. Sorry.

Finger of Shame Simenon

.

Back to my read.

I get angry when new players try to lecture me on what "town would never" do.

lecture you ?
You are the only one asking others to shut up and imposing his view without reasonings and simply stating things as fundamental truths. I do not try to impose my view at all, but have the right to play, I hope...so I give my opinions about players' actions, including yours...

[sirdanilot]

Otherwise, shut up.

You can't tell people to shut up in this game. Sorry.

Finger of Shame Simenon

.

Back to my read.

I get angry when new players try to lecture me on what "town would never" do.

I don't care. Don't do it.

So, I've finally finished my read, and I've done my best to fully read all posts. This seems to be a game of good quality, with not so many clear cut suspects.

Anyway, as for Ectomancer, he does not seem to be scummy enough to keep my vote on him (or rather my predecessor's) so:

unvote

Now, some more on Goatrevolt. Up until about page 14, he was very passive. Then came the case on Jahudo. A subtle, but sudden change of playing style, which I perceive as a scum tell. This case was certainly well-thought out, but the thing is, I question the usefulness of such a PBPA in itself. There are several flaws with it.

1. It rips the posts out of context, at least if you use the method of only showing posts by one user. And even if you don't, you tend to merely glance over the other posts.

2. Tunnel vision. You see the player who you are analyzing in the light of what you are trying to prove. I could go fancy by calling a famous psychiatrist's name who did some research of that effect, although I don't see how that would benefit the town

perhaps nureins would

. Anyway, you pick out the scumtells, and as they are also out of context they get magnified.

Goatrevolt is a skilled player. Firstly, he has the ability to make the PBPA so that it looks (and, to some extent, is) sophisticated, thought out well and not just thrown together. This could be perceived as pro-town. Secondly, he knows that he has to add some pro-town bits (with that I mean something like: '#x - good post, town tell'), and he did.

Fact remains is that such a pbpa is not really solid evidence. Scum could pick out some scumtells that a towny did, town could magnify minor scumtells of a towny, or the same with a mafia-aligned player. What I mean to say is that Goat's PBPA (two of 'em, actually) is

not

a town-tell at all. Combined with his change of play, it's a scum tell.

And Goatrevolt also knows how to lurk at times, in the beginning of the game this had real life reasons, but now it really just seems that he only participates when it would be advantageous to him, whereas a towny player would continuously contribute in order to help the town as a whole and to find scum.

I am interested in the Habit bandwagon. I think I am going to analyze it, and look at the people who jumped on it. I am fairly certain that at least one of those people is scum.

Simenon, shushing newer players (especially those who attacked you), showing general arrogance and rudeness does not make yourself less suspicious in my book. Additionally, you have not really provided much analysis to the game, most of your posts were (blunt) replies to other people's posts and you didn't really

promote

discussion, you just discussed yourself and you're very protective about it too.

FoS Simenon

[Cass]

@sirdanilot: do you have anything to say about the players you replaced? Or the votes you inherited from them?

[Citizen Karne]

Here are my thoughts.

TPT was frustrated town.
Nuriens-Cass jumps out to me as a possible scumpair.
I do not feel habitang is the right lynch today. I do feel he needs to spellcheck his posts, if at all possible.
The attacks on Simenon have all been surprisingly weak and I believe all of the posters making them were being influenced by his posting style instead of being influenced by what he has posted, if you catch my drift.
Andycyca-Jahudo seems like townie vs. townie to me.
I have a neutral read on Goatrevolt, nhat.
Ectomancer seems town based on a meta.
I am confused about where I stand with Ythill, and am going to reread him.

vote: Nuriens

If any elaboration on any of these points is wanted I will gladly provide it; I wanted to, however, keep my analysis concise, as has been requested.

[nureins]

vote: Nuriens

is that a kind of easy vote ? Id like to know your reasons, because the only attempt to provide suspicions on people was a sentence saying that Cass and I were a possible scumpair...

[nureins]

Let me simplify your criticisms on Goat, that I consider important for my next analysis. Please do not doubt to correct me if I interpreted one of them badly, as Im simplifying coz people is tired of long posts

1. Change of playstyle
2. rips posts out of context
3. tunnel vision
4. sophistification
5. lack of evidence in the case

In my opinion, the first 3 points apply basically to every case that could be built. The player writes on a particular person and modifies his playstyle, focus on some particular posts, deriving into tunnel vision at some moment. For point 4, If the player is skilled as Goat seems to be, he is sophisticated and tries to make the case as elaborated as possible.

In my opinion, your view is totally wrong, as Goat's case has been quite interesting. Even if I do not agree with his conclusions, his case is basically scumhunting. This can be observed by the intense debate generated, with serious points, and even leading Jahudo to accept some points, reconsider lot of things about habitang, etc.

If I have to say something, I do not mind that silar (ex tritch ex tpt) elaborates a theory on my pairing with cass, but clearly i see you could be trying to "satisfy" cass and me who were voting you. That would be done by criticizing goat (since cass and me were "defending" jahudo in this case) and fossing simenon, for whom we have suspicions.

And you postponed answering about TPT as we demanded for you, maybe hoping to have us relaxed situating yourself in similar positions...

I still want your opinion about TPT (of course, you are not him, I know that...)

[habitang]

Andycyca-Jahudo seems like townie vs. townie to me.

I do need some clarification here because you've just gone and said both my top two suspects are Townie. I also havn't seen much of Jahudo and Andycyca attacks on each other for that to be described as vs.

@ Andycyca: I did give a reason for my vote on you before. You've been quite passive in accusing people and then you voted me. Which is reasonable too. It's not that you voted me, but how you changed behaviour so quickly from lurking to voting. Haha, I read somwhere else how someone desribed it as drive-by lurking.

[Ythill]

The question here is what

you

think. Habit is not a weak player? Habit is inexperienced? Habit is scummy? Habit is just a n00b? I am honstly confused as to your opinion.

Of course this is an interesting question. That I already answered when I commented Jahudo's case in a long post. If you make me to repeat everybody is gonna hate me

The question was directed at Jah.

Nuriens is actually seeming a little more townie to me these days, though I don't know if it's because I'm getting a clearer read on him or because he's being more careful.

Good points (in #411) about sirdan's positioning. I'm looking forward to sirdan's response.

Still comfortable with my vote on Jah.

[sirdanilot]

Firstly, TPT. I see him as a newbie, no matter what he says. And yes, maybe he has some mafia experience, but it's not on mafiascum and perhaps games go very differently in other places. I've played games on other sites, and on one site people on Day 1 simply bandwagon the first person someone posts a case about. That example is only there to show how differently games throughout the internet are played, and that experience on another site may very well mean nothing here on MafiaScum.

I do not support his self-vote, and I can only see it in the light of him being a newbie. As for his sarcasm, I don't know, I don't play like that and I wouldn't know the motivation for someone to play like that.

Let me simplify your criticisms on Goat, that I consider important for my next analysis. Please do not doubt to correct me if I interpreted one of them badly, as Im simplifying coz people is tired of long posts

1. Change of playstyle
2. rips posts out of context
3. tunnel vision
4. sophistification
5. lack of evidence in the case

Now, that's

really

simple, isn't it. I really don't believe that you can properly reply to my post if you just use that oversimplified summary. I'm going to try to summarize my own post, and it'll be more complete.

1. Passive play, not what I'm used to see of Goatrevolt, so this is scummy in itself. You didn't include that in your summary.
2. Change of play style to being less passive, although his new playing style is less scummy, the change in itself is a scum tell. A towny wouldn't do that, in my opinion.
3. Nureins, you're completely wrong on the other points. I am not saying

Goatrevolt

is tunnel visioned, I am saying that the

method

Goatrevolt used is tunnel visioned in itself, and that Goatrevolt is experienced enough to know that and perhaps abuse it if he's scum.

Also, this is a VERY interesting quote by Goatrevolt.

@Ythill: When I construct a case, I generally go through and just pick out the parts that I find indicative that said player is scum. This is something I just do subconsciously because I guess it's been ingrained in me as habit, but I can see how it could be destructive. I've used this to good extent in nailing scum, but I've also used it as scum to nail townies, so I can understand your point. I dislike pointing out town tells while making a case on a player because I think that player is scum and want them lynched and pointing out town tells seriously detracts from a case. However, I'd be willing to make a PBPA on Jahudo and point out town/scum tells I see. I've only completed 4 games on this site (2 scum, 2 town), but I'm fairly consistent in this approach in all of my games. Mini 601, 604, 626, and Open 70 are my completed games.

4. Sophistication is not a scum tell, it's there to prove that Goatrevolt is a skilled and experienced player, so things perceived as town tells by you are not necessarily just that.
5. A scum tell you did not include is that Goatrevolt lurks at times where it's convenient for him to do so.

In my opinion, the first 3 points apply basically to every case that could be built. The player writes on a particular person and modifies his playstyle, focus on some particular posts, deriving into tunnel vision at some moment. For point 4, If the player is skilled as Goat seems to be, he is sophisticated and tries to make the case as elaborated as possible.

Modifies his playstyle

: I don't agree with that, at all. I do not think that the fact that you suspect someone enough to post a case on him is a good excuse to change your play style. And I handled number 4.

In my opinion, your view is totally wrong, as Goat's case has been quite interesting. Even if I do not agree with his conclusions, his case is basically scumhunting. This can be observed by the intense debate generated, with serious points, and even leading Jahudo to accept some points, reconsider lot of things about habitang, etc.

If I have to say something, I do not mind that silar (ex tritch ex tpt) elaborates a theory on my pairing with cass, but clearly i see you could be trying to "satisfy" cass and me who were voting you. That would be done by criticizing goat (since cass and me were "defending" jahudo in this case) and fossing simenon, for whom we have suspicions.

No, that's not true, I don't post a case to satisfy people, I post a case because I am suspecting them. And I stated why I fosed simenon.

And you postponed answering about TPT as we demanded for you, maybe hoping to have us relaxed situating yourself in similar positions...

I still want your opinion about TPT (of course, you are not him, I know that...)

No, I didn't postpone it, I didn't even notice the request until I started writing this very post. Anyway, it's above.

Nureins, stop manipulating my posts. I'd like you to reply to my own summary of my post. And what do you think of the Goatrevolt quote?

Good points (in #411) about sirdan's positioning. I'm looking forward to sirdan's response.

huh? That post is Jahudo's case on habitang.

[Goatrevolt]

Sirdan: If you check my other games, you'll see that my lack of posting in this game is consistent with those. I'm definitely having some real life issues, and this is a busy time in my life, so the amount of time I'm spending playing mafia has been cut down a lot. I hate replacing out of games, so I intend to stick it out and contribute when I can, but I probably won't be contributing nearly as much as you're used to seeing from me. It's a huge change from Mini 601 where I was very actively posting, however I was also scum in that game, so I don't really see why my lessened post rate in this game would give you the impression that I'm doing it because I'm scum. You've seen me play very actively as scum, so lesser activity definitely shouldn't be something you can call me out on based on meta.

I'll address any other points against me later on.

[Ythill]

Good points (in #411) about sirdan's positioning. I'm looking forward to sirdan's response.

huh? That post is Jahudo's case on habitang.

EBWOP: #441 rather than #411. Typo.

I've noting that sirdan's response was something like "nuh-uh, look what I said".

[Simenon]

Note that I didn't tell nuriens to "shut up".

The charge that I have not "provided enough content" was in fact exactly what I responding to, Ask me what to comment on, and we'll get somewhere.

Otherwise, well, you know.

[Ectomancer]

Well, you essentially said Put up or shut up, but you are right that the meaning is not the same.

[Simenon]

Listen, I'm going to take a short break from this game, because I've been nasty sick these past couple of days, and I think it's been affecting my play.