Mystery Mafia 2- Game Over! But who won!?

[Battle Mage]

Vote Count

Remussaidow 1 (Vel-Rahn Koon)
Vel-Rahn Koon 1 (Kison)

Not Voting: Patrick, Remussaidow, Lord Hur, Mnowax

With 6 of you remaining, 4 votes are required to lynch. You have 5 days till Deadline.

BM

[remussaidow]

vrk, its interesting that you would think that a daycop would be able to investigate twice in the same day. Couldn't it be possible that Populartajo arrived at the conclusion that he though I and Hur were town purely through playing the game of mafia?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Note the red, bolded text in the tajo quote. Since someone was so thoughtful as to kill tajo we now know that he was a Day Cop, which tells me that he most likely investigated one or both of {Nightson, Lord_Hur}.

Furthermore, and the most damning evidence against Nightson and L_H is the fact that he is an INSANE Day Cop - cops with sanity issues typically aren't told they are insane or naive or whatnot. Therefore tajo would have no reason to disbelieve any innocent/guilty claims he received from the Mod until a person he investigated turned up dead and had the opposite alignment from what the Mod told him.

Therefore, by him saying that they are probably town, it seems like he was breadcrumbing his role and hinting at an investigation or investigations. However, since he's insane, he most likely has their alignment wrong and they are probably NOT town - they are most probably scum.

There are a couple problems with this theory :

- How often do you see multiple day investigations ? It would be quite overpowering.

Usually only one. However, we've already seen in this game one role that can day kill MULTIPLE times in the same day - that seems much more overpowering than a multiple investigaiton Day Cop, don't you agree? The balancing restriction, according to mnowax, was that it had to be done by page 2. I think that's enough precedence to say that we could have a 2nd role with the same type of functionality - powerful, but limited use.

Normally I would agree with it being overpowering, but the fact that he was insane could quite easily mitigate the overpowering nature of a cop with multiple day investigations. Combine the insanity with the possibility that the role had only until page X or X number of investigations and I think that it's a quite reasonable role for this jacked-up game.

- It would be pretty incredible luck for him to nail 2 scum after mnowax already got one...

Agreed. We've already seen two scum react strangely to mnowax's killings, and Nightson was displaying the same behavior. You have been much calmer, and that's the primary reason I've put Nightson in front of you. However, that doesn't mitigate the fact that you were mentioned. It could have been gut, it could have been investigation that made tajo add your name to Nightson's, I don't know. I do know that simply because of that possibility you need to be looked at much harder - especially when Remuss turns up scum when he gets lynched today.

- If me and remus are scum, this means we have 5 (!) anti-town roles in this game (Alabaska J, DGB, "the werewolf", me and remus) : that's a bit much for 12 players, don't you think ?

This is NOT A 12 PLAYER GAME!!! I've said this before. This game is taking place in the Theme Park, which is reserved for Theme games with

20+ people

. BM has already said that he will not tell us the potential number of players in the game, so for all we know we still have up to 17 more players still to enter. Based on a minimum-sized 20 player game (for the Theme Park), two scum factions plus an independent anti-town role would not be unreasonable.

Besides, who said that you and/or Remuss are separate anti town roles from what we've seen so far? You could easily be in scum groups with Alabaska J, or DGB, or the "werewolf", so this is just a flat-out fallacious argument. It is very possible we've only seen one of each killing group. You can't tell me that each killing group only has ONE member, can you?

- I'm pretty sure populartajo's actual investigation was on DGB :

Can we lynch Greasy and then DGB?

Can we lynch Greasy and then DGB?

What are you smoking, Vel-Rahn Koon and I posted like 2 hours ago.

Excellent question!

Do me a favor and lynch this player tomorrow. They are going to kill me tonight.

In short, Occham's razor make me say that the most obvious possibility (that it was just a hunch) is the right one.

I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.

If anything, his wanting to lynch DGB was a hunch and his actual investigation target was Nightson or you or both. Your scenario might be simpler, but it doesn't fit the available facts. AT ALL.

L_H commented on tajo's statement about him and Nightson probably being pro-town in post 130, but it never went any further. Expression of suspicion without following up seems like scum saying "ok cool, he thinks I'm town. I'm not going to push this too far because that's exactly where I want to be". Not as bad to me as Nightson's reactions towards mnowax, but bad enough.

As I said back then, it was not enough for a vote, and I didn't get anything scummy from him after that (only his strange claiming, but that is no indication of scummyness, just a posting restriction from the mod).

Also, he said he believed I was town *before* I expressed suspicion. Were I scum and following your reasoning, I should not have attacked him at all. But I did.

No you didn't attack him. You threw out just enough protest to make it seem like you found it shady but not enough that you attracted attention to it.

Seems like the perfect thing for scum to do - "person A has said I'm town, and I want to look town, so I'm going to protest, just a little, because person A shouldn't know if I'm town or not".

That line of thought actually leads to this: "...wait, maybe he's a cop? This is a BM game after all, a Day Cop wouldn't be too far fetched..." And there's your Night 1 target. Dead having claimed your innocence to the rest of the players. If I saw a cop tell in tajo's statement, it's not a far stretch that one of the scum (you? Nightson? Someone else?) also saw it and took him out. Yes I had the benefit of knowing his role, but honestly, this:

BTW, Nightson and lordhur are probably town.

is a classic Cop tell.

As a side note, I can't help noticing that you made your first vote in this game right after I attacked you for lack of commitment on this point, and your vote on remus while you FoS me looks like a way to attack me without it looking too much like an OMGUS move...

I think this deserves a

FoS : Vel-Rahn Koon

That's about the fairest thing you've said so far. Although with the FoS it looks like you're trying to express suspicion without committing to voting for me. Scummy.

I could care less that you attacked me for my lack of play. It was perfectly acceptable for you to do so because I had not been playing. But to be fair, you yourself said in post 337 that

VRK : no activity for ages, didn't commit himself to *any* vote yet.

None of his posts appeared as scummy to me yet

(except when he said he would hammer Greasy Spot, and didn't show up to do it), but with this little activity, it's hard to form an opinion.

So with one post,

which accuses you of being possible scum based not on your play, but on a confirmed cop's possible tell

, I've suddenly become scummy enough for you to NOT commit to a vote, but an FoS which you can back out of if support doesn't materialize. You should be FoSing tajo...

And you say that I'm OMGUSing? Nice try! Hypocrite = joo. /FAIL

NEXT!!!

vrk, its interesting that you would think that a daycop would be able to investigate twice in the same day.

See above.

Couldn't it be possible that Populartajo arrived at the conclusion that he though I and Hur were town purely through playing the game of mafia?

Sure, but your predecessor was acting distinctly NON-Town when it came to mnowax - that's a fact and he almost got lynched Day 1 because of it. Three people freaked out when mnowax started killing people - Nightson, DGB, and Alabaska. Two of them are dead. Two of them are also scum. TBH, I REALLY REALLY REALLY like those odds combined with the fact that an Insane Day Cop probably put the final nail in your coffin without meaning to.

The irony is simply delicious

[lord_hur]

I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.

Darn, you're right. I didn't think enough about it. Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.

Darn, you're right. I didn't think enough about it. Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

This looks a lot like the backpedaling and flailing we saw out of DGB, Alabaska, and Nightson. Hiding something? Can we vote twice today??? Please!?!?

Giant-Left-Elbow of Suspicion: Lord_Hur

P.S. SOMEONE OWES ME A 'NAGASAKI'!!!!!!

I don't care who. Honestly I'd prefer it if everyone would post a 'Nagasaki' in their next post. Please.

[mnowax]

Nagasaki

[Kison]

do you have any power except your... ability to explode?

Maybe. Is there any reason why I should specify whether or not I do at this point in time?

Do you know what will happen exactly if/when you explode? Will it kill just you or some of us too?

I only know that I will explode and die if my timer reaches zero. I do not know if others will die as well. I was not told, and nothing leads me to believe that.

Is the timer suspended during the night or do we have to "load you up" in prevision of it?

Of course it's suspended at night. What would I do if BM unexpectedly had to extend the night deadline? Die because he goofed?

VRK, you are a strange individual, indeed. First, to respond to your confusion, the middle quote I presented shows you specifying that you find Dasquien VS Greasy Spot to be a Town VS Town fight, yet the surrounding quotes indicate that you are willing to go with a Greasy Spot lynch. That does not depict any kind of Town mindset I can fathom.

Secondly, your Nagawhatever thing has me creeped out... What does that do? Are you like me? If so, then how are you still alive? If not, then what the frak does your keyword do?

[Kison]

I'm down to four and a half days. I need one more to make it past the 9 day deadline(6 + 3 = 9, 9 - 9 = 0 = Boom).

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Thanks for the clarification Kison. At the time, the fight seemed to have that classic Town v. Town feel to it, but we were nearing the deadline, IIRC, and lynching someone is always better than No Lynching because you can always use the information the lynch gives you. No Lynching just gives the scum a free night kill with no resulting day lynch info to work with in conjunction with the night kill.

Strange? Yeah I am. My last post was made towards the end of a VERY long day at work and I was feeling a bit feisty. As far as I know, my role did not specifically dictate that anything untoward would happen if people didn't say the keyword, but who knows - BM is weird like that

Thanks for playing along mnowax!!

mnowax, Kison, and anyone else who cares to chime in: what do you think about the case I've made against remuss and L_H? The deadline is getting closer and we should get something going now, rather than last minute. Das's logic is spot on - we don't want to switch targets hours before the deadline. We should talk about it now. This happened in a Newbie game I just finished (619), and the scum, who wound up winning, said that the turning point was when we suddenly switched targets a day before the deadline hit.

[lord_hur]

do you have any power except your... ability to explode?

Maybe. Is there any reason why I should specify whether or not I do at this point in time?

As I said, only if you think it would not help scum. If you have nothing to add, so be it. Not understanding things make me uncomfortable (as what is currently happening with this populartajo investigation thing), but it is only a secondary concern, of course.

I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.

Darn, you're right. I didn't think enough about it. Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

This looks a lot like the backpedaling and flailing we saw out of DGB, Alabaska, and Nightson. Hiding something? Can we vote twice today??? Please!?!?

Giant-Left-Elbow of Suspicion: Lord_Hur

What, because I made an error in my reasoning ? Listen, this is the very first time I have to deal with non-sane cops. Sorry for not being perfect.

The worst part is, as it IS a hunch (I know it because I'm town, even if I also know you have no reason to believe me), remus could actually be scum, and if he does turn up scum, and if people follow your reasoning, I'm going to be lynched tomorrow.

Also, I found another weakness in your reasoning : the exact role BM gave is "insane day cop", which is a combination of "insane cop" and "day cop". Nowhere is it mentioned that he has multiple investigations, and it is at least as important as the other 2 characteristics, so there is no reason BM would have left this piece of description out.

There would be a way to prove this :

@mnowax

: I'm pretty sure that you're town, so can you disclose your exact role name (if you think that wouldn't help scum, of course) or just say if it just is "day vigilante" or on the contrary something containing a hint that you can kill multiple people ?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.

Darn, you're right. I didn't think enough about it. Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

This looks a lot like the backpedaling and flailing we saw out of DGB, Alabaska, and Nightson. Hiding something? Can we vote twice today??? Please!?!?

Giant-Left-Elbow of Suspicion: Lord_Hur

What, because I made an error in my reasoning ? Listen, this is the very first time I have to deal with non-sane cops. Sorry for not being perfect.

No, not for an error in your reasoning, but that's a nice Argument from Fallacy. The last part of your post:

Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

looks like you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, and you're desperately trying to direct our attention elsewhere. You're proposing some whacko role for DGB which would explain why tajo went after him, but that's a load of crap. You were quoting Occam's Razor in your last post, and then you come up with this convoluted nonsense? Could this be any further from your immediately previous position of "the simplest explanation is often the correct one"? You've also stated that the role would change when killed, which would do nothing for tajo's investigation since he wouldn't investigate a dead person. Try again.

The worst part is, as it IS a hunch (I know it because I'm town, even if I also know you have no reason to believe me), remus could actually be scum, and if he does turn up scum, and if people follow your reasoning, I'm going to be lynched tomorrow.

STOP!!!!! Dear God In Heaven Above, just STOP!

Please. Seriously, I'm getting a headache.

Appeal to Emotion ? Check! Worried about getting killed ? Check! Both Scummy actions?

CHECK(mate)!!!!

I guess by your logic we should lynch you first then, just so there's no way for Remuss' death to affect you in a negative light. Why are you worried about dying as a townie anyway...

Also, I found another weakness in your reasoning : the exact role BM gave is "insane day cop", which is a combination of "insane cop" and "day cop". Nowhere is it mentioned that he has multiple investigations, and it is at least as important as the other 2 characteristics, so there is no reason BM would have left this piece of description out.

There would be a way to prove this :

@mnowax

: I'm pretty sure that you're town, so can you disclose your exact role name (if you think that wouldn't help scum, of course) or just say if it just is "day vigilante" or on the contrary something containing a hint that you can kill multiple people ?

This is the saddest thing I've ever seen. You are so desperate to get attention off of yourself that you're actually suggesting that the real role name is not what BM posted in the initial game post? On what Fu%king planet do Mods give full descriptions of the player's role in the role title? Have you ever gotten a role PM that was nothing but the role title because the title said it all? Please say 'Yes'. PLEASE! I DARE you!!!! I Double-Dog Dare you!!!

Maybe, according to you, the role BM should have posted was "Insane Day Cop Who Has A Limited Number Of Investigations"? Or maybe "Insane Day Cop Who Has To Have All His Investigations In By Page 3"?

I've got a role name for you: "Scummy McScummerson This-Is-The-Biggest-Load-Of-Horse-Shit-I've-Ever-Shoveled-Let's-See-If-It-Flies Whackjob".

@mnowax:

please confer with the Mod first and make sure you can post your role PM title. If you get Mod killed because of this nonsense I'm gonna be livid.

Come on, folks, seriously. At least L_H is making an attempt to defend himself. Remuss hasn't said a word except for some half-hearted crappy defense and is now trying to blend back into the background. Probably hoping I'll just focus on L_H. NO WAY DUDE! I wouldn't want to leave you hanging all by yourself! Remuss needs to go today. Can we vote please? Let's not make the Mod wait until the deadline again.

Confirm Vote: Remussaidow; FoS: L-H

P.S. There are still a few outstanding 'Nagasaki's....

[remussaidow]

Right, so now you're attacking me because you don't like the way my predecessor was pointed out as probably town by an insane day cop, who more than likely either had enough day investigations to either have figured out that he was insane (which is entirely possible) or probably didn't investigate me. And then you confirm your vote because I haven't been online in the past 24 hours. Seriously dude. Its strange too, because by not being able to say anything and being left open to a vast number of attacks from you, you've managed to not actually attack me and yet build an entire case out of what Tajo may (repeat and bolded

MAY

) have meant. Now this is all well and good, but the other target you have in this is Lord_Hur, who has not only responded to your recent flurry of activity, but responded in such a way so that he's protected if I'm lynched first. That's really not a particularly town thing to do.
But honestly, what have I done to make you think that I am scum. Not what has Tajo done, or nightson done, but what have I done?

Also, Mnowax, still intent on not contributing, eh? Fine

Anyway, based on Hur's reactions to the onslaught of attacks from VRK, I

unvote, vote: Lord_Hur

Because I rather know I'm not scum, and yet cannot deny the points that VRK has made.

[lord_hur]

Anyway, based on Hur's reactions to the onslaught of attacks from VRK, I

unvote, vote: Lord_Hur

Because I rather know I'm not scum, and yet cannot deny the points that VRK has made.

Which points ?

[lord_hur]

To be more precise : VRK, I will answer everything that is in your last post, but only after remus says which of its arguments he thinks are worth lynching someone over.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Right, so now you're attacking me because you don't like the way my predecessor was pointed out as probably town by an insane day cop, who more than likely either had enough day investigations to either have figured out that he was insane (which is entirely possible) or probably didn't investigate me.

Ok, first off - how do you figure that he was able to figure out if he was insane? He was killed Night 1. What death information, other than one town and one scum, would he have to go off? He would have had to investigate either one of those two players before they died for him to know that he was insane.

tajo didn't post at all before FL was killed, and only 10 hours passed between his first post and Alabaska getting killed. Just from that I really don't see that he would have investigated either one of those players - especially FL. tajo's entry post:

Claim : Jester.

The mod told me to.

Vote : Alabaska

pretty much says that, as an insane cop, he did NOT investigate Alabaska. If he's voting for him here because he got a guilty investigation, then that means that Alabaska should have flipped town, not scum. That tends to indicate that he did not investigate Alabaska - what it does tend to indicate is that vote for Alabaska is a random vote and tajo had no sense of his alignment from an investigation.

And then you confirm your vote because I haven't been online in the past 24 hours. Seriously dude.

True, I did get a bit carried away, but who cares - you're scum and you need to go so it's all good. It's not like my vote actually counts more because I confirm voted you. But if it makes you feel better I'm sorry I got carried away - NOT! If you're going to feign scorn at least make it for something worth while.

Its strange too, because by not being able to say anything and being left open to a vast number of attacks from you, you've managed to not actually attack me and yet build an entire case out of what Tajo may (repeat and bolded

MAY

) have meant. Now this is all well and good, but the other target you have in this is Lord_Hur, who has not only responded to your recent flurry of activity, but responded in such a way so that he's protected if I'm lynched first. That's really not a particularly town thing to do.
But honestly, what have I done to make you think that I am scum. Not what has Tajo done, or nightson done, but what have I done?

What have you done? Nothing major up to this point, but that's quickly changing, isn't it? I've been focusing on L_H because he's giving me the ammo with which to go after him. You just keep feeding me ammo in your posts and I'll make sure I keep slamming you just like I'm slamming L_H. You are BOTH getting lynched today and tomorrow. I don't really care about the order - scum is scum.

And another thing - who gives two flips what

you

have done, you self-centered egotist?

Just because you are a different person doesn't mean that the role that you and Nightson SHARE has changed.

I don't have to show that you've done a God-d%mn thing, to be brutally honest with you. What I have shown, quite plausibly I think considering the reactions I'm getting, is that I'm probably spot-on about one, if not the both, of Nightson and L_H. Just because you're not Nightson doesn't mean that you've suddenly gotten a different role. You are 100% fully accountable for any actions he took, including looking like a scumbag reacting to mnowax and being fingered by an insane cop. But that's a nice try at a logically false argument to get yourself off the hotseat.

Also, Mnowax, still intent on not contributing, eh? Fine

Anyway, based on Hur's reactions to the onslaught of attacks from VRK, I

unvote, vote: Lord_Hur

Because I rather know I'm not scum, and yet cannot deny the points that VRK has made.

Deflecting ? Check! Hopping on an easy bandwagon ? Check!

Either you're bussing or your just helping to lynch one of the other scumgroups. I'm going with the latter, but we'll get it all straight tomorrow after BM posts your roles from lynching you and L_H.

Can we PLEASE get some comments from the Peanut Gallery?

[remussaidow]

I highly doubt I'll get lynched today, VRK, and even if I do, you're ******* nuts. I'd love to OMGUS you just to help you look more like an ***, but I'm too goddamned sure you're town.

Also, I give two flips what you think I've done. You're trying to lynch someone who isn't playing the game anymore. Most of what Nightson did to look scummy he did by lurking, and by being pegged by an insane cop (I think you're idea on him voting J is irrelevant, that could be simply how he queued his investigations. But as I said, its still irrelevant.)

You're in no position in this game to try and call for help from the peanut gallery by the way. what with having dropped off into nothingness and all.
Its not feigning scorn when I'm not feigning. Just like I'm fairly certain you're only feigning idiocy right now.


to L_H, sorry that these aren't in any particularly nice order

Appeal to Emotion Shocked ? Check! Worried about getting killed Shocked ? Check! Both Scummy actions? CHECK(mate)!!!! I guess by your logic we should lynch you first then, just so there's no way for Remuss' death to affect you in a negative light. Why are you worried about dying as a townie anyway...


lord_hur wrote:
Vel-Rahn Koon wrote:
I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.


Darn, you're right. I didn't think enough about it. Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...


This looks a lot like the backpedaling and flailing we saw out of DGB, Alabaska, and Nightson. Hiding something? Can we vote twice today??? Please!?!?

Giant-Left-Elbow of Suspicion: Lord_Hur

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I highly doubt I'll get lynched today, VRK, and even if I do, you're ******* nuts. I'd love to OMGUS you just to help you look more like an ***, but I'm too goddamned sure you're town.

Well OMGUS away. We've already covered the crazy aspect, so if that's all you have I'll assume you don't have any rebuttals to my logical attacks against you. Besides, who else are we going to lynch today anyway? This is probably one of the best cases brought against anyone in this game so far.

Also, I give two flips what you think I've done. You're trying to lynch someone who isn't playing the game anymore. Most of what Nightson did to look scummy he did by lurking, and by being pegged by an insane cop (I think you're idea on him voting J is irrelevant, that could be simply how he queued his investigations. But as I said, its still irrelevant.)

See, you're wrong. And we've been over this. As far as this game is concerned, YOU AND NIGHTSON ARE THE

SAME

PERSON! I'm not trying to lynch someone who's not playing any more - I'm trying to lynch his replacement.

If he is scum, and looks scummy, that doesn't excuse you from having to defend those actions. YOU DID NOT GET A DIFFERENT ROLE PM FROM NIGHTSON! Therefore, if Nightson is scum and he got pegged by an insane day cop, then that means that you are also scum. That's the sucky thing about replacing in sometimes.

Just because you think it's irrelevant doesn't mean anything. I think it's a great avenue for exploration, and it's generated almost all the relevant discussion for today. You calling it irrelevant means you're just dismissing it, hoping that it will go away. Sorry, not going to happen.

You're in no position in this game to try and call for help from the peanut gallery by the way. what with having dropped off into nothingness and all.

Its not feigning scorn when I'm not feigning. Just like I'm fairly certain you're only feigning idiocy right now.

So because of past actions, I can't possibly be right and trying to actually play the game? My entire argument should be ignored because I was sitting around before? You and L_H were the ones who wanted me to start posting more. Blame yourself for the crap you're in.

At this point you're just being an ass by making it a personal Argumentum ad Hominem. Try harder scumbag, this is pitiful.

[Patrick]

Gah. Why does stuff have to happen on the day I'm working for 13 hours with no internet access in sight? I'll catch up on all this tomorrow - looks like we might have something interesting from skimming.

[mnowax]

@mnowax

: I'm pretty sure that you're town, so can you disclose your exact role name (if you think that wouldn't help scum, of course) or just say if it just is "day vigilante" or on the contrary something containing a hint that you can kill multiple people ?

my official role name is maniac.

[mnowax]

Vel-Rahn Koon is so scum. these muddling long winded posts just reek of scum.

Unvote, Vote: Vel-Rahn Koon

[lord_hur]

I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.

Darn, you're right. I didn't think enough about it. Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

This looks a lot like the backpedaling and flailing we saw out of DGB, Alabaska, and Nightson. Hiding something? Can we vote twice today??? Please!?!?

Giant-Left-Elbow of Suspicion: Lord_Hur

What, because I made an error in my reasoning ? Listen, this is the very first time I have to deal with non-sane cops. Sorry for not being perfect.

No, not for an error in your reasoning, but that's a nice Argument from Fallacy.

What ? The mistaken assumption being mine in this case, are you saying you're guilty of discarding my whole defense ?

The last part of your post:

Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

looks like you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, and you're desperately trying to direct our attention elsewhere.

That would have been a very poor distraction attempt. Or maybe it's just what it looks like, an attempt to make sense of the case using the info that I have ? (i.e. that i'm town, thus that the investigation wasn't made when you apparently think it was made, and that the various attacks on DGB by populartajo look so much like cop having investigated scum).

You're proposing some whacko role for DGB which would explain why tajo went after him, but that's a load of crap.

Are you claiming to be DGB's partner, so you know what her role really is ? Because it damned well looks like it. How the hell can you presume what such a vague role name as "Screwball" really is?

You were quoting Occam's Razor in your last post, and then you come up with this convoluted nonsense? Could this be any further from your immediately previous position of "the simplest explanation is often the correct one"?

I did not find a simpler one based on the above-mentioned info that I have.

You've also stated that the role would change when killed, which would do nothing for tajo's investigation since he wouldn't investigate a dead person. Try again.

Now it's your turn to make a mistake in your reasoning, Mr Perfect. If DGB would appear as scum when she dies, she would appear town until then, so populartajo would have a guilty on her. By the way, what I had in mind is that her role doesn't change, she just appears as scum when killed, like a miller.

But again, this is far-fetched. We have no info about her true role. Well, except you maybe.

The worst part is, as it IS a hunch (I know it because I'm town, even if I also know you have no reason to believe me), remus could actually be scum, and if he does turn up scum, and if people follow your reasoning, I'm going to be lynched tomorrow.

STOP!!!!! Dear God In Heaven Above, just STOP! Please. Seriously, I'm getting a headache.

Appeal to Emotion ? Check! Worried about getting killed ? Check! Both Scummy actions? CHECK(mate)!!!! I guess by your logic we should lynch you first then, just so there's no way for Remuss' death to affect you in a negative light. Why are you worried about dying as a townie anyway...

Is your role in this game that of a madman? Because it surely looks like it. Ok, where to begin...

First, appeal to emotion is the single worst scumtell in my opinion. In my experience (fairly limited, I agree), whenever someone used it to get a lynch on someone, the target *always* turned town. Every single time. I even classify this... should I even say argument? in the "bullshit tools that scum use to get townies lynched".

Second, worried to die? Seriously? What are you suggesting, that I immediately self vote? Everyone knows their own role, so everyone wants to live (well usually, see Elemental Mafia for a possible exception). Now if you demonstrated that I so much want to live that I neglected goals that townies would pursue, we would be talking. But barely staying live is a normal worry for everyone.

Also, I found another weakness in your reasoning : the exact role BM gave is "insane day cop", which is a combination of "insane cop" and "day cop". Nowhere is it mentioned that he has multiple investigations, and it is at least as important as the other 2 characteristics, so there is no reason BM would have left this piece of description out.

There would be a way to prove this :

@mnowax

: I'm pretty sure that you're town, so can you disclose your exact role name (if you think that wouldn't help scum, of course) or just say if it just is "day vigilante" or on the contrary something containing a hint that you can kill multiple people ?

This is the saddest thing I've ever seen. You are so desperate to get attention off of yourself that you're actually suggesting that the real role name is not what BM posted in the initial game post? On what Fu%king planet do Mods give full descriptions of the player's role in the role title? Have you ever gotten a role PM that was nothing but the role title because the title said it all? Please say 'Yes'. PLEASE! I DARE you!!!! I Double-Dog Dare you!!!

Maybe, according to you, the role BM should have posted was "Insane Day Cop Who Has A Limited Number Of Investigations"? Or maybe "Insane Day Cop Who Has To Have All His Investigations In By Page 3"?

I've got a role name for you: "Scummy McScummerson This-Is-The-Biggest-Load-Of-Horse-Shit-I've-Ever-Shoveled-Let's-See-If-It-Flies Whackjob".

@mnowax: please confer with the Mod first and make sure you can post your role PM title. If you get Mod killed because of this nonsense I'm gonna be livid.

I'm not going to answer this thoroughly, just read what mnowax disclosed. Thanks, mnowax.

This shows two important things :

1. That his name is indeed not "day vigilante", because it is not a standard role, so it received a custom name by BM. In the *very* same way, there is no reason populartajo's role wouldn't have been customized as well. The only logical conclusion is that he had only one investigation.

2. This perfectly represents VRK's current play : bullshit in CAPITALS and accompanied with !!!!!!! and . But guess what, those who scream louder are not necessarily right. Also, I have done a bit of metagaming on VRK, and it seems like he usually doesn't play like that, so this play is intended.

Also, nice BS about mnowax not being able to post his own role name. Where have you seen a game in which it is not possible? Or maybe you suspected what he was going to say, and did not want him to say it?


Your arguments are so bad, I am not voting you right away only because I want to inspect remus' recent activities first before I place my vote.

[lord_hur]

I highly doubt I'll get lynched today, VRK, and even if I do, you're ******* nuts. I'd love to OMGUS you just to help you look more like an ***, but I'm too goddamned sure you're town.

This scumtell about certainty is almost too obvious, I wouldn't count it if you weren't under pressure.

Also, I give two flips what you think I've done. You're trying to lynch someone who isn't playing the game anymore. Most of what Nightson did to look scummy he did by lurking, and by being pegged by an insane cop (I think you're idea on him voting J is irrelevant, that could be simply how he queued his investigations. But as I said, its still irrelevant.)

Your line of defense asking us to ignore everything your predecessor did is laughable, and I hope I don't have to explain anyone why.

to L_H, sorry that these aren't in any particularly nice order

Appeal to Emotion Shocked ? Check! Worried about getting killed Shocked ? Check! Both Scummy actions? CHECK(mate)!!!! I guess by your logic we should lynch you first then, just so there's no way for Remuss' death to affect you in a negative light. Why are you worried about dying as a townie anyway...


lord_hur wrote:
Vel-Rahn Koon wrote:
I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.


Darn, you're right. I didn't think enough about it. Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...


This looks a lot like the backpedaling and flailing we saw out of DGB, Alabaska, and Nightson. Hiding something? Can we vote twice today??? Please!?!?

Giant-Left-Elbow of Suspicion: Lord_Hur

Just as I thought. The only objective argument VRK had (populartajo's double investigation), you couldn't agree with unless you claimed you were scum.

So you based your vote on only those 2 arguments which are :

- of the worst kind (which I think I have proved in my last post)
- developped by someone else, which you have no reason to believe is town (have you?)

Now this is all well and good, but the other target you have in this is Lord_Hur, who has not only responded to your recent flurry of activity, but responded in such a way so that he's protected if I'm lynched first. That's really not a particularly town thing to do.

Nice way to divert attention to someone else. It is obvious bullshit though : what I say cannot change facts. If you're town and lynched today, it will bring down VRK's reasoning about populartajo's investigation, same as if I had said nothing. And it would not protect me from any attack on another ground, by the way, so what's your "protection" exactly? Epic fail.

VRK did mention flailing when he attacked me, and I can't help thinking that's what remus is doing now : desperately trying to bring me to the front so I take the lynch instead of him.

At first, I didn't know what to think about his actual voting on me, really. Was he decieved by VRK's aggressive style so that he did not see that his arguments are crap, or did he not think about it and just sensed a potential wagon he could jump on? But judging by his earlier play, which wasn't on the stupid side, I think the second possibility is the most probable.

I have been pondering between voting for VRK or for remus. But now, if I take into account all my analyzing and :

- the fact that VRK's play and arguments, as much as I don't like them both, have the merit of pressuring people, which is usally quite good for town to get extra info ;

- the fact that VRK has lost each and every of his games as town (7), so his bad arguments could actually be genuine (not the best argument, I know, but I think it counts) ;

You will not be surprised that I feel more comfortable with this :

Vote : remussaidow

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Vel-Rahn Koon is so scum. these muddling long winded posts just reek of scum.

Unvote, Vote: Vel-Rahn Koon

Do better mnowax. This seems like you're voting for me because you can't be bothered to read because there's too much stuff. I asked you to give your opinion once before and you never did, and now it looks like you're just overwhelmed by the amount of stuff that's been posted. So here's a basic synopsis:

My main point is that I think L_H and Nightson (remuss) are scum because, in post 127, populartajo says that he thinks they are town. That entry in post 127 looks like a classic cop tell trying to give away investigation information without revealing his role. tajo has since turned up to be an Insane cop, so if that was a cop tell then that means that they are not town, they are scum.

That's the basic premise for my argument. The rest of it has been answering L_H and remuss's rebuttals. Just because I've got a lot of stuff there, don't just automatically dismiss it because you don't want to read and assume I'm scum. I think I have a legitimate point here.

[remussaidow]

L_H, you're leaving out one very important fact. So blatantly easy bandwagoning (which you claim I'm doing, though no one else is voting for you, so its not a bandwagon), is also a stupid move, and as you've said i've played intelligently before, why should this be any different?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

I think you're crazy, TBH. He was an INSANE cop, and INSANE cops are NEVER told that they have sanity issues - otherwise there's no point in changing their sanity. What you're saying is that, for DGB to be the investigation target, tajo had to KNOW that he was insane and got an innocent on DGB, thereby knowing to flip it to guilty so that he could go after him with surety.

Darn, you're right. I didn't think enough about it. Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

This looks a lot like the backpedaling and flailing we saw out of DGB, Alabaska, and Nightson. Hiding something? Can we vote twice today??? Please!?!?

Giant-Left-Elbow of Suspicion: Lord_Hur

What, because I made an error in my reasoning ? Listen, this is the very first time I have to deal with non-sane cops. Sorry for not being perfect.

No, not for an error in your reasoning, but that's a nice Argument from Fallacy.

What ? The mistaken assumption being mine in this case, are you saying you're guilty of discarding my whole defense ?

Yep. Because your defense is based on a false argument, and therefore the defense is not correct. I am not attacking you for your error in judgement. I am attacking you for looking like you're a backpedaling scum. And that's a nice Strawman argument there. Way to take the rest of my argument, which EXPLAINED my attack, and leave it out so that you make me look bad. Scummy.

The last part of your post:

Why the hell did he go all out against DGB like that then? It doesn't make sense at all... Well, unless she's a townie appearing as scum when killed. I read about this role somewhere, but have never seen it used. But then we don't know what "Screwball" is either...

looks like you've been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, and you're desperately trying to direct our attention elsewhere.

That would have been a very poor distraction attempt. Or maybe it's just what it looks like, an attempt to make sense of the case using the info that I have ? (i.e. that i'm town, thus that the investigation wasn't made when you apparently think it was made, and that the various attacks on DGB by populartajo look so much like cop having investigated scum).

I'm not judging the quality of the attempt, becuase that doesn't mean anything. This is a poor argument, because you're not discussing the distraction at all, you're trying to say that because it might be a poor distraction then it can't be all you could come up with.

You're proposing some whacko role for DGB which would explain why tajo went after him, but that's a load of crap.

Are you claiming to be DGB's partner, so you know what her role really is ? Because it damned well looks like it. How the hell can you presume what such a vague role name as "Screwball" really is?

Again, this is a strawman argument. You are taking what I said out of context and trying to make it sound worse than it is. Try again.

You were quoting Occam's Razor in your last post, and then you come up with this convoluted nonsense? Could this be any further from your immediately previous position of "the simplest explanation is often the correct one"?

I did not find a simpler one based on the above-mentioned info that I have.

My point is that you completely flipped positions. First you were saying that a simple explanation must be correct, then you just suddenly gave up that line of reasoning and went with the crazy interpretation, completely ignoring your previous comment that the simple explanation was right. This is called flip-flopping.

You've also stated that the role would change when killed, which would do nothing for tajo's investigation since he wouldn't investigate a dead person. Try again.

Now it's your turn to make a mistake in your reasoning, Mr Perfect. If DGB would appear as scum when she dies, she would appear town until then, so populartajo would have a guilty on her. By the way, what I had in mind is that her role doesn't change, she just appears as scum when killed, like a miller.

I need to see this role so I can either concede or continue to argue this point. Please find it. I have never heard of this before so I would like to see it from a 3rd party, and not have to take your word on it.

But again, this is far-fetched. We have no info about her true role. Well, except you maybe.

Exactly we don't. It is far-fetched, and if anything you should be pointing fingers about her role speculation at yourself - you started that mess.

The worst part is, as it IS a hunch (I know it because I'm town, even if I also know you have no reason to believe me), remus could actually be scum, and if he does turn up scum, and if people follow your reasoning, I'm going to be lynched tomorrow.

STOP!!!!! Dear God In Heaven Above, just STOP! Please. Seriously, I'm getting a headache.

Appeal to Emotion ? Check! Worried about getting killed ? Check! Both Scummy actions? CHECK(mate)!!!! I guess by your logic we should lynch you first then, just so there's no way for Remuss' death to affect you in a negative light. Why are you worried about dying as a townie anyway...

Is your role in this game that of a madman? Because it surely looks like it. Ok, where to begin...

First, appeal to emotion is the single worst scumtell in my opinion. In my experience (fairly limited, I agree), whenever someone used it to get a lynch on someone, the target *always* turned town. Every single time. I even classify this... should I even say argument? in the "bullshit tools that scum use to get townies lynched".

We've been over the crazy aspect. I've been on edge lately, and it's coming through in the game. That's the 3rd time we've talked about it, so let's leave it at that. I'm just crazy, ok?

Townies don't normally run around saying "I'm Town, I can't prove it but I am". It's one of the worst bullshit arguments ever. You can't prove it so just don't do it.

Second, worried to die? Seriously? What are you suggesting, that I immediately self vote? Everyone knows their own role, so everyone wants to live (well usually, see Elemental Mafia for a possible exception). Now if you demonstrated that I so much want to live that I neglected goals that townies would pursue, we would be talking. But barely staying live is a normal worry for everyone.

Stop. Again, Townies don't need to worry about dying. Scum do - there are far less scum in the game so their need to live is definitely greater than a normal Townie. You defend yourself, you do the best you can, but Town do not need to worry about dying. If you are town, and I'm scum leading a charge against you, when you die and flip town I immediately move up everyone's scum meter. Your team can take care of avenging your death. There's no need to worry about dying as a townie.

Also, I found another weakness in your reasoning : the exact role BM gave is "insane day cop", which is a combination of "insane cop" and "day cop". Nowhere is it mentioned that he has multiple investigations, and it is at least as important as the other 2 characteristics, so there is no reason BM would have left this piece of description out.

There would be a way to prove this :

@mnowax

: I'm pretty sure that you're town, so can you disclose your exact role name (if you think that wouldn't help scum, of course) or just say if it just is "day vigilante" or on the contrary something containing a hint that you can kill multiple people ?

This is the saddest thing I've ever seen. You are so desperate to get attention off of yourself that you're actually suggesting that the real role name is not what BM posted in the initial game post? On what Fu%king planet do Mods give full descriptions of the player's role in the role title? Have you ever gotten a role PM that was nothing but the role title because the title said it all? Please say 'Yes'. PLEASE! I DARE you!!!! I Double-Dog Dare you!!!

Maybe, according to you, the role BM should have posted was "Insane Day Cop Who Has A Limited Number Of Investigations"? Or maybe "Insane Day Cop Who Has To Have All His Investigations In By Page 3"?

I've got a role name for you: "Scummy McScummerson This-Is-The-Biggest-Load-Of-Horse-Shit-I've-Ever-Shoveled-Let's-See-If-It-Flies Whackjob".

@mnowax: please confer with the Mod first and make sure you can post your role PM title. If you get Mod killed because of this nonsense I'm gonna be livid.

I'm not going to answer this thoroughly, just read what mnowax disclosed. Thanks, mnowax.

This shows two important things :

1. That his name is indeed not "day vigilante", because it is not a standard role, so it received a custom name by BM. In the *very* same way, there is no reason populartajo's role wouldn't have been customized as well. The only logical conclusion is that he had only one investigation.

2. This perfectly represents VRK's current play : bullshit in CAPITALS and accompanied with !!!!!!! and . But guess what, those who scream louder are not necessarily right. Also, I have done a bit of metagaming on VRK, and it seems like he usually doesn't play like that, so this play is intended.

Also, nice BS about mnowax not being able to post his own role name. Where have you seen a game in which it is not possible? Or maybe you suspected what he was going to say, and did not want him to say it?[/quote]

First what are you talking about mnowax not being able to post his role name? I asked him to verify with the Mod that it would be ok. Nowhere did I say that I didn't want to see it. Try again.

Second, I can't make the same leap of faith that you think he only had one investigation simply because he didn't get a fancy name. If remuss flips scum, then you need to be put under the gun tomorrow. We can't let you slide just because you're putting forth the assumption that, based on a role name, you can't possibly be scum. That's way too weak.

Your arguments are so bad, I am not voting you right away only because I want to inspect remus' recent activities first before I place my vote.

I'm calling bullshit. My arguments are fine, and I've blown a hole in everything you've thrown at me. Go ahead and vote me.