Open 88 - Polygamist Mafia (Game Over) before 650

[Xtoxm]

Vote Count

StrangerCoug (0)
Farside22 (0)
Citizen Karne (0)
Empking (1) Farside22
Goatrevolt (0)
Jahudo (0)
OpposedForce (1) Empking
armlx (2) Adel, StrangerCoug
Caboose (1) Goatrevolt
Mana_Ku (0)
kloud1516 (1) Mana_Ku
Adel (5) armlx, Citizen Karne, Caboose, OpposedForce, Kloud1516

Not Voting (1) Jahudo

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

The game's been moving quite slowly, so now that everyone's here, i'm going to place a deadline.

Day will end on Monday September 8, 7 pm BST (GMT + 1)

Deadline rules apply:

A lynch occurs once a simple majority is reached, except at a deadline, when the person with the most votes is lynched. If there is a tie, whoever got the most votes first is lynched.

Votes changes will be counted until I lock the thread.

[farside22]

Sorry busy morning. I will get to this game today. I promise.

[Adel]

Hi.

As you reread, who do you see as being responsible for the attempted lynching of the newbies?

[Empking]

I find Armix responsible but I do agree with him.

Unvote

[Mana_Ku]

In which ways do you agree with him. If you say you agree with someone, it's useful for other ppl to say why.

[Goatrevolt]

I need to read through the last 4 pages or so. Sorry for falling behind.

[Jahudo]

who do you see as being responsible for the attempted lynching of the newbies?

armix might have starting this wagon but it was on the basis of the original random lynch proposal by Jebus and his insistence on defending it. If anyone has been most eager about this bandwagon, I think Citizen Karne has been.

1)

I dislike how the Adel wagon disappeared so quickly once he (I remembered) replaced in. I especially do not like kloud's unvote at all. No reason given. He welcomes Adel into the game and unvotes.

By this point he gave no reason why he thought this wagon was a good idea. He tried to scum pair Adel with kloud by saying kloud had no reason to unvote and that looked scummy. Well kloud DID state a reason in his unvote post:

I feel that I am going to have to read over the last page and a half so that I make sure I haven't missed something.

The scum pairing felt like a stretch to believe when kloud didn't say anthing about clearing Adel in this post.

2)

Glad to see the wagon starting back up on Adel.

Again does not attempt to give his opinion on why he agrees with an Adel bandwagon, only bandwagons in general it appears.

3)

Most of what was posted in the daytalk seems much like noobscum, and I believe noobtown would (in the overwhelming majority of cases) not propose a strategy in a game, as they are usually more unsure of themselves.

I already said I thought this looked like reaching for reasons and only creating WIFOM. Proposing strategies might make a noob appear pro-active and helpful to the town despite his lessened knowledge of do's and dont's. I'm sure there are reasons, both scum and town, for someone to think random lynch is a good idea.

4)

And, do you also expect us to believe scum would be 100% truthful in their daytalk if it incriminated them?

Knowing this, how do you read Jebus' defense of his random lynch proposal? Do you see his explanation as an attempt to change from his originally stated intentions into something that could make him look more innocent than he knows his strategy is?

Karne: What are your thoughts on what Jebus did, because so far you have pressured the Adel wagon without commenting much on how it began?

[kloud1516]

Finally done. And I'm almost gone out of this game.

First of all, can't you all think? You are all following one player of one lover pair, while we have 4 good lover pairs and one bad one consisting out of 4 people. But all you have been doing is commenting on Adel/Jebus play. This is what I call tunnel vision. Didn't you guys say that the town loses with two mislynches? Then tell me why you are all focusing on one group?

This is not necessarily true. If it were, Llama and OF would not have had their back-and-forth, and I would not have commented on what I found to be suspicious with Jahudo's play thus far in the game. I personally am focusing on the Adel/Jebus and 3fj/you wagon for reasons I provided in posts 139, 163, and 192. I feel this group is the most suspicious, and continues to act in a scummy manner.

Next would be Llama's discussion with OF. Many didn't even follow it, or they did but didn't say a thing. After a few large posts, there are some who are going to read it through, however nobody gives a comment about it. Can anyone explain me why?

I must admit that I completely forgot to read back over it as promised. I will go back and do this right now.

What are your opinions of the back-and-forth between Llama and OF?

Then we have the post of the lover pair 3fj and jebus. I don't know if you have seen it, but there are only two people talking. NOT FOUR. Also they are talking about catching mafia. Strange enough, nobody notices that. But other things were boldprinted sometimes. In this post you can also see what the plan of Jebus was. I'm talking about the random lynching plan of which you gave a lot of comments on, that it's not helpful. However as you can see Jebus thought it was useful. It also explains why Jebus didn't wait for the popcorn claiming.

Mana_Ku, are you trying to intimidate us into unvoting you? Heavy amounts of pathos do not help your argument. Heavy amounts of logos do, though.

Then we have the post of the lover pair 3fj and jebus. I don't know if you have seen it, but there are only two people talking. NOT FOUR. Also they are talking about catching mafia. Strange enough, nobody notices that.

Do you

really

expect us to believe that the scum would forget to cut out their partners in their daytalk?

Really

? And, do you also expect us to believe scum would be 100% truthful in their daytalk if it incriminated them?

This. QFT. The whole shabang. It is perfectly plausible that posts made by their scum partners could have been omitted, as well as the possibility that all things that could look suspicious were taken out as well. We have no way to prove this, but it

is

a possibility, so I find your argument flawed.

I hope that you don't mind that I'm writng this with anger for it pains me that I see all these false arguments about the ones who Adel and I have replaced, while you weren't searching for the real scum.

My vote wasn't solely based off the actions of Jebus. Adel was trying to downplay your replacements' actions, and when called out on it rebutted the claims with fallacy. The arguments used to justify their actions were just as suspicious, if not more suspicious to me than the actions themselves.

[armlx]

And Adel continues to subtly propagate the idea that what Jebus + 3fj did was not scummy and attacking them for it was.

[farside22]

I will be honest. I voted for Llama because something about him struck me as scummy. It is more of a meta, but I just had that gut feeling that Llama/ Goat is scum. I can't shake the feeling no matter how hard I try. I find it odd that Adel would post her comments made and what the 2 people said (which what they said is incredibly scummy) but the fact she left those scummy comments in there where she could have made the whole thing up seems like WIFOM. I give Adel all the credit in the world when it comes to some things even if the conversation was just weird I can't imagine scum sharing a conversation for us knowing the votes would go against them. I just can't see it. I will go back more and point to what bugs me about Goat/ Llama and look at other things sometime tomorrow.

[Citizen Karne]

Really now, Jahudo? Why did I need to restate the reasons for the wagon? It had been said quite clearly before.

[Mana_Ku]

What I really hate, is when ppl don't answer my questions. In post 220, I aked questions to armlx and Citizen Karne (CK). Both have posted after this, but didn't answer my questions.

Also Kloud regarding post 192, why did you use the quote from Adel's vote?

To answer your question Kloud, I don't pay any attention to it. I'm almost sure that 1 lover pair is scum and I'm doubting between the second. That's why I'm asking questions at the moment. To see if my suspicion of the first pair is correct and to look for the second pair.

CK, it would be nice to give those reasons. The others can look what you think of it. And like I said at post 220 you wouldn't mind to vote armlx or kloud. Another reason to say your reasons why you voted Adel.

[armlx]

Lost the questions in the end of page.

Besides if this game has been 90% about Jebus, 3fj, Adel and me then what are you going to do after we get lynched? Then you'll look into other people with only one day left here. Isn't that risky?

I'm assuming the game ends there, but if it doesn't this wagon is a shit load of info.

Also how come you don't see Jebus actions as newbie?

Deliberate pre-game planning, false analysis, etc, but mainly the fact he had someone else to talk to pre-game. Also, I do see them as newbie, but still scummy and not excusable to newbiness.

First of all, if I wanted to post the link I would have done it in that post. You took it serious and told that it isn't allowed to do so. To me this appears as if you don't want to see the chat, while others reacted to it when Adel posted the text. Back then, you didn't give any comments as well. Only to a thing Caboose has said.

And if it was WIFOM, then tell me why Adel didn't use it.

I didn't want to see it. The scenario ends in 1 of 2 ways: I am right, and you threatening to post it as such does nothing major, or I am wrong, and you posting that leads to mod kill + possible other consequences.

Now comes the part where you didn't give an aswer to. Don't you look carefully at newbies in newbie games? How many times is there a newbie killed, because he looked scummy, while he was actually making newbie mistakes? If you don't look into it, why not? If you do, why not here?

Actually, of every newbie game I have IC'ed or modded, I can only think of 1 scenario off the top of my head where a newbie town got lynched for dumb behavior that was specifically newbish. Compare to 2-3 where newb scum got the same treatment. I usually let small things slide with newbies to be fair, but Jebus's proposition was head and shoulders above small.

[Goatrevolt]

I find it odd that Adel would post her comments made and what the 2 people said (which what they said is incredibly scummy) but the fact she left those scummy comments in there where she could have made the whole thing up seems like WIFOM.

I think Adel's expectation was that we would see their suggestions and brush them off as newbies and give them a free pass. I don't see why summarizing some of a night conversation really means anything one way or another.

Anyway, I still need to reread the last few pages. My current top suspect is Adel, and the majority of my suspicion is based on the way she defended herself by strawmanning the nature of the attacks against her, and thus trying to make those attacks appear weaker than they are. I'll just stick with a

FoS Adel

for now until I look at a vote count.

[Empking]

Mana_ku: I really don't like the, I'll give you my link. It screams "look at me I'm pro-town" without actualoly being pro-town. Anoyingly, it'd be a waste to vote man_ku because if I want her lynch I should vote for Adel.

Adel: Adel hasn't really done anything scummy. Its Jebus with her plan of "random vote excluding me or my partner". And that's in my opinion crazy scummy. The chat log has confused me but it definately hasn't cleared him.

Strangercoug:m In both forms hasn't really done much. Couldn't call it lurking either.

Citizen Karne: In the case of Adel being town he'll look scummy (and I'll give him another lookover) but with the information that we have I think he's a tunnle vision town.

Armix: If Adel does turn up town we might need to look back on him. As I've got the page where he mentioned popcorning open, I think I should mention that. He seems a tad tunnle visioned but he looks pro-town to me.

Kloud: Its weird to think he's Armix's partner. I really don't like the way he unvoted when Adel came. This might be a player just trying to attack the newbies. Apart from that his posts seem good contents wise.

Opposedforce: His early posts seem to be just making mistakes or apolagising for mistakes. Despite that I don't think he's scum. He also proposed mass claim.

Jah: I really don't know what to say about him. When I was reading the latter pages I had forgotten about him. I don't think he's scum and he seems pro-town to me. After my own, I think this is the most pro-town pair.

Caboose: He (apart from in his chat anylisis) doesn't seem to have a mind of his own. Going as far as saying he'll just go with tyhe majority.

Farside: I feel like he's focused on Armix. I don't even think he's given anything to support his suspicions.

Vote: Adel

[armlx]

That's L-1.

[Mana_Ku]

I just want to hear your answers to this question: If Adel and I are scum then who are our partners? Of each lover pair there is at least one person voting for us. Explain that. I only want to hear the explanation of armlx.
However the question is aimed at every player.

Also Citizen Karne, I'm waiting for your answers in one of my other posts. While your answering this one you can also answer the others.

Empking, a summary of every character is helpful, however I would like to hear what you thought of certain events. Espescially Llama's and OF's discussion. The one you replaced was in it and you just read it. Can you tell me what you thought about this discussion?

Besides armlx, don't you get worried now that there's only one vote needed to lynch adel. You know that you're going to be targeted when the others see we were town?

[armlx]

If Adel and I are scum then who are our partners?

Someone not voting you who has expressed they don't like your actions. Jahudo comes to mind, esp. because Caboose hasn't posted in a while. My experience with EmpKing also would imply that he is also a possible partner given GR expressing similar behavior towards you.

[armlx]

Besides armlx, don't you get worried now that there's only one vote needed to lynch adel. You know that you're going to be targeted when the others see we were town?

You say these things like you think I don't think you are scum. Scare tactics aren't going to push my vote away.

[Adel]

I accept that I', going to be the lynch for today, but I think it is a terrible play for the town to lynch us without seriously examining other options.

I think armix should be quicklynched tomorrow.

This is where we need adel. One of those diagram thingies would be great here.

If he were town, I would received a much different reception from armix in this game.

[armlx]

Circumstances drastically changed from the time of that quote.

[Adel]

Circumstances drastically changed from the time of that quote.

yes, I replaced the newbie that was targeted for a mislynch, and you are the chief driver of that wagon.

I'm sick of seeing these wagons built against new players whose major fault is an incomplete understanding of the game.

Why would scum group two newbies together for the claimed lover pair? Wouldn't it make much more sense for one experienced player to be paired with on inexperienced player?

With four players in the scum group, wouldn't one of them have enough experience to point out the flaws to 3jf and Jebus that their plan was riddled with? The very fact that Jebus forwarded such a hair-brained idea should go a long way towards proving that he was a member of a group of two with another newbie, and not a group of four.

Seriously, when I am lynched and proven to be town, where is that going to leave the rest of the town? very few leads to follow up on, and in lynch-or-lose.

[Mana_Ku]

I'm hoping that I can see the answers of all players from question before I get lynched. Also this could be helpful for town later on, may I be lynched let the remaining players who didn't answer it still answer it.

I hope Empking keeps his word that he'll go more into armlx's case.

To answer my own question. I suspect lovers armlx and kloud the most. If it wasn't clear enough just ask me why. The second pair in my eyes is either lover pair CK or Caboose. Both suddenly voted out of the blue. Just like Empking, but because he goes after my primary scum lover pair, I don't see him as suspicious. The same goes also for CK. That's why Caboose lover pair is second for me. And I didn't like his reasons given by it. Hope this helped a bit.

May it happen that we're lynched tonight (my timezone is GMT+1), I won't see it until tomorrow. This is probably my last post if we get lynched today so good luck town.

Don't worry armlx, I know. Appeal to emotion according to you.

[armlx]

Adel:

Why would scum group two newbies together for the claimed lover pair? Wouldn't it make much more sense for one experienced player to be paired with on inexperienced player?

It might, it might not. They set up the newbie excuse on those 2 and the experienced pair fends off attacks like none other.

With four players in the scum group, wouldn't one of them have enough experience to point out the flaws to 3jf and Jebus that their plan was riddled with?

Possibly not. Possibly they thought people could buy into it.

Seriously, when I am lynched and proven to be town, where is that going to leave the rest of the town?

Except you are scum and we win. I can do that pre-empting outcomes thing really well too, see?

Mana_Ku:

Don't worry armlx, I know. Appeal to emotion according to you.

Actually no.

[Empking]

Mana_ku: What question?