Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Ythill]

On sirdan's meta read of me: For the most part, it sounds like an honest analysis. Maybe he's starting to feel the pressure. Anyway, I'm only discussing what I disagree with...

Now, I didn't read into that other player that much so I'm not sure if he really offended him, but this does remind me of something with pot, kettle, black...

He spent entire posts arguing that I was a prick and an asshole and hardly mentioning my alignment. Honestly, I'm surprised he wasn't modkilled.

Anyway, every single post of his is absolutely humongous (as in, really really big) so I'm not too sure what to think of that.

I've learned to trim them down a bit. For aggression, check out my arguments with Northjayhawk and Incognito. This was my first real game, and where I started to learn how scum react to aggression (Northjayhawk was scum).

In this game you can also see my habit of selecting a single target and attacking him until I get a read. I've done this to varying degrees over my games, but it's a common theme regardless of my alignment.

Not very aggressive imo.

I beg to differ. Though I hadn't learned the badgering technique yet, check out my arguments with vollkan and Justin Playfair.

He is slightly more aggressive in this game than in others, or at least it gives me that feeling.

Only when bussing at the begining and again in the endgame. Still no badgering though. That didn't develop in my playstyle until more recently.

He utilizes HoS, FoS and whatnot in this game (and he claimed not to do that here in 645!).

Actually, what I said (in #517 of this game) was, "I

very

rarely FoS at all," which agrees perfectly with your meta read.

I notice that sirdan skipped two of my completed games. Most notable was mini 609 in which I was a town-friendly neutral power-role. This is my most recently completed game and is an excellent example of me using aggression, tunnel-vision targeting, and badgering to hang scum. I stewarded the attacks leading to scum kills on D1 and D2, by N2 BOTH scum groups NKed me and one of them even RBed the doc just in case.

Also, note the similarities in the actions and attitudes of Gimbo (in mini 609) and sirdan (here). Hence the weight of my suspicions here.

No badgering in the games he has finished (and that I checked). As far as I know, this is the first time he is badgering like this.

It is a recent development, but there is

very

strong evidence of me doing this to effectively hunt scum. Only it's from a game you didn't check. Why didn't you check my most recently completed game? What was your method for looking up games?

My apologies to those of you who find meta distracting. I can't just let myself go undefended here. Hopefully I kept things brief enough to be acceptable. Rather than get into a long argument about the various points of these games, I'd suggest that interested parties check out the games and come to their own conclusions.

[Ectomancer]

27 page day 1. Let's kill someone.

[Ythill]

While I agree that scum could manipulate an ordered list, I believe that those manipulations will be obvious. So I’ve taken it on myself to finish what nuriens began. The conclusion of this post is an ordered list that is my objective attempt to quantify the lynch candidates of the seven players who have stated choices (as well as the votes of those who have not). I will update the list if others state their choices.

This is meant to be informative, not argumentative. I am working as best I can with the data given. Here’s the method I’m using, so as to be entirely transparent.

Explicitly stated top suspects OR current votes get 4 points*. Explicitly stated secondary subjects get 2 points. Candidates explicitly identified as compromise or tertiary lynches get 1 point. In the case of vague lists (a.k.a. Goat’s candidates) I gave everyone secondary lynch status (2 points).

Here is a list of everyone’s stated suspicions as I read them. Please let me know if I’ve interpreted yours incorrectly.

Nuriens: sirdan (top); Sim (secondary); Karne (honorable mention)
Ythill: sirdan (top); Cass, Karne, nhat (secondary); Jahudo, pacman (honorable mention)
Cass: Karne (top); sirdan, pacman, Ythill (secondary)
Sirdan: Ythill (top), Sim, Jah (secondary); pacman, Karne (honorable mention)
Goat: Jah, Karne, sirdan, Ythill, Andy, Sim (secondary)
Sim: pacman (top); sirdan (secondary); Ythill, Jah, nuriens (honorable mention)
Jah: Karne (top); sirdan (secondary); Ecto, nhat, Andy, Goat* (honorable mention)
Ecto: nuriens (vote)
Karne: nuriens (vote)
Nhat: Ythill (vote)

*In Jah’s case, I gave his 4 points to his top suspect. I only included his vote target (Goat) as honorable mention because he explicitly said that he would be uncomfortable lynching him right now. Which begs the question, why is Jah still voting for Goat?

Anyway… here’s the leader board…

sirdan (16)
Ythill (13)
Karne (10)
nuriens (9)
Jah & Sim (6)
nhat & pacman (4)
Andy (3)
Cass (2)
Goat (1)

My suggestion is that everyone cast a vote for one of the top 3-4. We’ll work it out from there. Ecto (the only person nobody suspects) is right, we need to end this day.

[Jahudo]

*In Jah’s case, I gave his 4 points to his top suspect. I only included his vote target (Goat) as honorable mention because he explicitly said that he would be uncomfortable lynching him right now. Which begs the question, why is Jah still voting for Goat?

Actually the vote count says Goat is voting for me, not the other way around. I unvoted, but will vote now.

Karne hasn't been very active lately and I find his avoidance of accusations troubling, but if the polling is accurate I don't know if it's prudent to prolong the day on the number 3 choice if he won't defend himself. Plus he's not as informative as a sirdan lynch would be.

Vote: sirdanilot

[Ythill]

Actually the vote count says Goat is voting for me...

Yeah. My bad. Thanks for catching it.

So I guess we can remove Goat from the list altogether.

Incidentally,

the vote count is wrong

: pacman's vote is still listed even though he unvoted in #622. I

did not

count his listed vote in my last post.

[Ythill]

Also, I guess this means Goat's main suspect has been identified by his vote, giving Jah 2 more points. The corrected leader board looks like this...

sirdan (16)
Ythill (13)
Karne (10)
nuriens (9)
Jah (8)
Sim (6)
nhat & pacman (4)
Andy (3)
Cass (2)

Doesn't change the top 3-4.

[Goatrevolt]

my top 3 in order:

Jahudo->Citizen Karne->Ythill

Unvote, Vote Citizen Karne

based on the lack of support for Jahudo.

Citizen Karne has been really absent of late, but is also absent from another game I'm in with him, so I don't see it as meaningful either way. If he gets his prod I'd like to see his response to Cass's case.

[sirdanilot]

I already have my vote on Ythill, who is my top suspect and second in the list. I think Ythill is very likely to be scum, and enormous amounts of information will come to us if he does flip scum. And even if he doesn't (unlikely) that gives us some information too.

@Ythill: The method that I used to track down your games is as follows:

1. I searched for author 'Ythill' in mafia forums.
2. Tadaaaa! A list of games finished by Ythill.
3. I picked some games from the list. I did not pick them all, and I did not first check the game only to see 'ah he's aggressive AND town in that game so I won't mention it in my meta'.
4. I read one-player threads from Ythill in those games. Well, more that I skimmed over them and I randomly clicked some pages for beginning game, midgame and endgame.

I wasn't aware of any game 609, but I'll have a look. I don't like how you compare me to Gimbo, seriously, do I deserve that?

[sirdanilot]

Good, some meta on mini 609 (Kingmaker): I have never heard of the 'kingmaker' variant, looks like fun. I think a Kingmaker is a pro-town power role? Anyway, yes, you did utilize 'LOL whatever scum' here, and you badgered a bit, so yeah you utilized that tactic here. However, I still feel that you have never badgered anyone as much as you're now doing to me, and even though you nailed scum with it in that game, you are obviously not on the right track here in 645.

Also, can you really compare me to this?

hope you fall crack your skull, or gets killed like these guys in this book I'm reading The Woods by Harlan Steubens. They got their throats slit too, exciting, eh?

I seriously lol'd here.

Anyway, what I meant is, you do not reply to my defenses. You only rip some things out of context in my posts and you use them to 'prove' that I am scum.

How do you expect me to stop this? I know that if you are going to continue this way, day 1 may very well end into a mislynch (me). I can't defend myself, since you ignore it. Even though it has worked so far for you, this tactic is very bad and it will some day work against you. That is, if you're town.

This tactic does have everything that good scum tactic needs, though. Very convincing, it may very well provoke a mislynch, and you have good excuses to pretend it's a townie technique. It's a bit risky, but you pull it off very well.

A Ythill lynch would seriously give us heaps of information here. Why does nobody see this?

MOD: Where is nhat? Please prod nhat.

[Ythill]

my top 3 in order:

Jahudo->Citizen Karne->Ythill

...which moves me, Jah, Andy, sirdan, & Sim from secondary to honorable mention.

sirdan (15)
Ythill (14)
Karne (10)
nuriens (9)
Jah (8)
Sim (5)
nhat & pacman (4)
Andy (2)
Cass (2)

Also, can you really compare me to this?

No. My comparison was about your slippery styles before my attacks and during the early part of them.

Anyway, what I meant is, you do not reply to my defenses.

How do you expect me to stop this?

Reply to the accusations directly. Convince me that you are not scum. It's that simple. I may not have replied to everything you said, but I have read every word. Usually more than once.

You're not going to trick me into clearing you. You have to show me that I am wrong. I don't think you can because I don't think I am.

A Ythill lynch would seriously give us heaps of information here.

Would it? There's some, but... heaps? The majority gained would come from the last few pages, which means we'd get the same info by lynching you. Plus, with you, we'd get to take a fresh look at the reactions to Pope's nonsense.

But I'm not calling for an info lynch on you. I think you're scum.

[Cass]

I want to hear something from Karne, Nhat and pacman - but aside from that i agree very much with ending the day. I like where my vote is now, but I'll hammer any of our top three rather then prolonging the day even more.

[Cass]

4b) So I don’t mind the badgering, but it affects sirdan’s reactions depending on his personality and I think that leads to the possibility of misinterpretation. In the back and forths where sirdan says Ythill is refusing to continue the debate and Ythill says sirdan is side-stepping the argument, I feel that the badgering affects this to an extent I don’t see a strong enough tell. I’ve been unsure how effective the “adversarial player” persona is to untested players.

Thank you, that is exactly what I was trying to say earlier, but I couldn't find the right words to explain myself. This is why I feel so unsure about ythill and Sirdan both.

[Goatrevolt]

Lynching for info is dumb. Every lynch gives information. Instead lynch who you think is scum.

[nhat]

yeah, prodded. I like my vote where it is. Ythill's meta isn't helping me to change my vote anytime soon.

My second choice would be habitang/pacman on the strength of habitang's earlier behavior, which has been pointed out already


I guess my third choice is nureins for being a busybody about anything and everything, like "hey, look at me, I'm not trying to lay low," but this choice is out of frustration, really.

[pacman281292]

I have a first choice (

obviously

pacman) and a second choice (sirdan), but after that it all gets pretty arbitrary, right? I don't see the point in a ranked list.

Obviously?! What the...

I still don't have a list-o-scum, sorry. I will try to do it later. Lots and lots of stuff to read... >_<

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

27 page day 1. Let's kill someone.

That's scum-behaviour.
A long day 1 means lots and lots of info. Lots and lots of info means more possibilities to lynch scum. Ecto isn't posting at all, and he is trying to cut off discussion. That's scummy.

FoS: Ectomancer.

[sirdanilot]

I intended to post this earlier, but my internet went down (it tends to do that in this country). At least I got the chance to save it in notepad.

Also, can you really compare me to this?

No. My comparison was about your slippery styles before my attacks and during the early part of them.

Every player is different and reacts differently to pressure.

Anyway, what I meant is, you do not reply to my defenses.

How do you expect me to stop this?

Reply to the accusations directly. Convince me that you are not scum. It's that simple. I may not have replied to everything you said, but I have read every word. Usually more than once.

I replied to the accusations directly. You ignored it. How am I supposed to convince you that I am not scum, if you simply ignore my defenses?

You're not going to trick me into clearing you. You have to show me that I am wrong.

I don't think you can because I don't think I am.

Oh snap. You think I'm scum so I am going to have a really hard time to convince you that I am not, especially when you ignore my defenses. Tunnel vision.

A Ythill lynch would seriously give us heaps of information here.

Would it? There's some, but... heaps? The majority gained would come from the last few pages, which means we'd get the same info by lynching you. Plus, with you, we'd get to take a fresh look at the reactions to Pope's nonsense.

But I'm not calling for an info lynch on you. I think you're scum.

Now this is where we're talking. Firstly, I am pretty damn sure that you are scum, so won't be just an info lynch. Secondly, why do you say that most information will only come from the last few pages? Nureins/ythill as well as earlier arguments will give us a lot too. My predecessors were absent for a large part of the game (between tpt and tritch and after tritch disappeared until I popped in) so the information gained from a lynch on me would be less due to sheer quantity, although I agree that if my alignment is confirmed it will shed a light on a lot of things as well.

Anyway, I agree with Goat that alignment is way more important than information. People should lynch whoever they find the scummiest and come to a consensus before the deadline pressure kicks in, and I am willing to compromise if Ythill isn't our target for today.

[Ectomancer]

I have a first choice (

obviously

pacman) and a second choice (sirdan), but after that it all gets pretty arbitrary, right? I don't see the point in a ranked list.

Obviously?! What the...

I still don't have a list-o-scum, sorry. I will try to do it later. Lots and lots of stuff to read... >_<

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

27 page day 1. Let's kill someone.

That's scum-behaviour.
A long day 1 means lots and lots of info. Lots and lots of info means more possibilities to lynch scum. Ecto isn't posting at all, and he is trying to cut off discussion. That's scummy.

FoS: Ectomancer.

vote Pacman

"That's scummy behavior, blah blah blah. Im so town because I can repeat a favorite townie mantra"

Whatever. You need to die.

[Ythill]

I just can't take Ythill seriously when he just insists on referring to anyone he attacks as scum and just harps on them about it. If he has such good arguments, then why resort to petty name-calling? And he's been doing it all game. He's pushing way too hard in this case.

Unvote
Vote - Ythill

That's the entirety of your reasons for voting me. Now meta reveals that I have done this recently as a town-friendly role, and that it worked in that game to catch scum (hence me using it again). Even my most adamant attacker said, "Anyway, yes, you did utilize 'LOL whatever scum' here, and you badgered a bit, so yeah you utilized that tactic here," but you say the meta doesn't change your view.

Okay. If you're town, I'd suggest rethinking here because a Ythill card-flip today will put you on the gallows tomorrow. You've got all of sirdan's emptiness without any of his slippery tricks to hide it in.

Your secondary suspicions are no better. An abandonned wagon from midday and an annoyance policy lynch? I wonder why you're coming off this way now, I thought you were pretty solid in the early game.

Firstly, I am pretty damn sure that you are scum, so won't be just an info lynch.

All you've got is OMGUS and a weak playstyle case that's been disproven by meta. You cannot possibly be sure.

Secondly, why do you say that most information will only come from the last few pages? Nureins/ythill as well as earlier arguments will give us a lot too.

When I flip town, it will confirm that my suspicions of nuriens were honest but it will also confirm that my subsequent n00b read and clearing of nuriens was honest. You'll still have to figure out which was correct.

If we were living in some magical, hypothetical world where I could somehow flip scum, the hard debate with nuriens that faded to me clearing him and then working with him could equally be me distancing or failing to railroad a townie. It's a WIFOM nightmare.

From nurien's end, nothing about my alignment tells us anything about his Goebels argument.

Sirdan-scum's other points are more of his lies and nonsense, so I'll fall back on, "whatever, scum."

Nhat's suspect list and Ecto's vote change have been applied to the leader-board...

sirdan (15)
Ythill (14)
Karne & pacman (10)
Jah (8)
nuriens (6)
Sim (5)
nhat (4)
Andy (2)
Cass (2)

I'm noting how quickly nuriens has dropped out of the top 4, to be replaced by pacman. Ecto had a major hand in this, and I'm remembering nuriens odd town read on Ecto from the begining of the day. Nhat also played a part, with horrible reasoning. Interesting...

[nhat]

That's the entirety of your reasons for voting me. Now meta reveals that I have done this recently as a town-friendly role, and that it worked in that game to catch scum (hence me using it again). Even my most adamant attacker said, "Anyway, yes, you did utilize 'LOL whatever scum' here, and you badgered a bit, so yeah you utilized that tactic here," but you say the meta doesn't change your view.

Okay. If you're town, I'd suggest rethinking here because a Ythill card-flip today will put you on the gallows tomorrow. You've got all of sirdan's emptiness without any of his slippery tricks to hide it in.

Your secondary suspicions are no better. An abandonned wagon from midday and an annoyance policy lynch? I wonder why you're coming off this way now, I thought you were pretty solid in the early game.

Personally, I don't give a shit. This game bores me to death. I have other games that keep my attention. I play for fun, not to nit-pick through 27 dry ass pages to appease anyone.

[Ectomancer]

That's the entirety of your reasons for voting me. Now meta reveals that I have done this recently as a town-friendly role, and that it worked in that game to catch scum (hence me using it again). Even my most adamant attacker said, "Anyway, yes, you did utilize 'LOL whatever scum' here, and you badgered a bit, so yeah you utilized that tactic here," but you say the meta doesn't change your view.

Okay. If you're town, I'd suggest rethinking here because a Ythill card-flip today will put you on the gallows tomorrow. You've got all of sirdan's emptiness without any of his slippery tricks to hide it in.

Your secondary suspicions are no better. An abandonned wagon from midday and an annoyance policy lynch? I wonder why you're coming off this way now, I thought you were pretty solid in the early game.

Personally, I don't give a shit. This game bores me to death. I have other games that keep my attention. I play for fun, not to nit-pick through 27 dry ass pages to appease anyone.

Do you support my someone needs to die bandwagon?

[Simenon]

I play for fun, not to nit-pick through 27 dry ass pages to appease anyone.

Why do you play mafia

Ecto: Good catch. Pac oughta die today.

[Erratus Apathos]

Vote Count

sirdanilot: (3) nureins, Ythill, Jahudo
Ythill: (2) sirdanilot, nhat
Citizen Karne: (2) Cass, Goatrevolt
pacman281292: (2) Simenon, Ectomancer
nureins: (1) Citizen Karne

Not voting: Andycyca, pacman281292

[pacman281292]

27 page day 1. Let's kill someone.

That's scum-behaviour.
A long day 1 means lots and lots of info. Lots and lots of info means more possibilities to lynch scum. Ecto isn't posting at all, and he is trying to cut off discussion. That's scummy.

FoS: Ectomancer.

vote Pacman

"That's scummy behavior, blah blah blah. Im so town because I can repeat a favorite townie mantra"

Whatever. You need to die.

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

It looks like Ectomancer and Simenon are going for my head. Ecto's idea of "27 pages, that's enough discussion. Random lynch pacman!" is

not

good.
The lynch might not be random, but he must explain something big here, or I assume it's random. Random (or semi-random) lynches are not good.
My top suspects are Ectomancer and Simenon. Reasons given. Their nonsense plain against me is something that neds explanation. I insist.

I need to reread the sirdan-Ythill-nureins stuff to understand what's the meaning of that. Opinions coming.

[Ectomancer]

I explained it when I voted. Reading comprehension FTW.

[pacman281292]

I explained it when I voted. Reading comprehension FTW.

Yeah, I understood the sarcasm. But that isn't good explanation.