Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Ectomancer]

If you understood it, shouldn't you respond to it?

[pacman281292]

uh-oh, not complete argument

So, you are saying that we must shut up and lynch? I disagree...

[pacman281292]

And, that sarcasm has NO answer. What did you ask for there?

[Jahudo]

Judging by the placed votes, we're basically at a 4-way tie. Maybe people not so willing to change votes should make brief cases (just a paragraph or two) for their suspect and people willing to change their vote consider them? Or people could volunteer to switch now. Just a thought.

Citizen Karne has been really absent of late, but is also absent from another game I'm in with him, so I don't see it as meaningful either way. If he gets his prod I'd like to see his response to Cass's case.

I won't comment on that game, but in here Karne's avoidance to questions looks like a general apathy of active gaming. He was trying to group scum by only taking one angle to make it work and ignoring others, so I'd say it was pretty bad behavior on his part. He didn't really post much substantial material while he was dodging our questions, so maybe his avoidance was more a product of inactivity and apathy to 20+ pages of reading.

[sirdanilot]

Firstly, I am pretty damn sure that you are scum, so won't be just an info lynch.

All you've got is OMGUS and a weak playstyle case that's been disproven by meta. You cannot possibly be sure.

Ahahahahaha. You are so wrong, but so damn clever. Does everybody see what he's doing here? I metaed Ythill, and I said beforehand that meta doesn't

prove

anything, obviously this also means it can't prove your innocence.

Your play style does not help the town. I have said this numerous times, and I explained why. You ignore my defenses and a lot of your arguments base themselves on the assumption that I am scum.

You

cannot possibly be sure of my scumminess.

And I don't care that you did it

once

before as a town, and that you were right. Your tactic may be effective to catch scum, but only if you already know they are.

Oh, and I know that the following argument may sound like I am assuming Ythill is scum, but it'd be pretty damn easy for scum to abuse this and make someone seem very scummy. And I think that's been done in this game.

Ythill, I am pretty sure you know more than well that you can't

disprove

things by meta. So, here's another scum tell!

Sirdan-scum's other points are more of his lies and nonsense, so I'll fall back on, "whatever, scum."

Oh snap.

[nureins]

Ill try to be concise. Several posts to comment.
First of all, Ythill is commanding the list of suspicions. All yours...

If he gets his prod I'd like to see his response to Cass's case.

Me too. I find your vote change coherent. Somebody else already moved vote from citizen to sirdan very fast, though I guess these movements have to be studied later.

..which moves me, Jah, Andy, sirdan, & Sim from secondary to honorable mention.

First, Im not sure if this moves you from secondary to honorable, or mantains you at secondary.
Second and more important, you add one point to yourself instead of reducing one point of your total sum. If you consider this "honorable" you should have decreased your number to 12 contrary to what you did.

I guess my third choice is nureins for being a busybody about anything and everything, like "hey, look at me, I'm not trying to lay low," but this choice is out of frustration, really.

I recommend you to meta game me. I like to explore people. And I only play 2 games. Think of the consequences of this combination, as probably most players play more games...

...ythill claimed not to FOS...

Sorry, I have no time to look for the exact quote by sirdan. I have remembered that I wanted to say something but I stopped myself coz of the idea of letting people to defend themselves first. As ythill already did, I want to point out that Sirdan is lieing. Ythill said "very rarely Fos", and this is pretty consistent with the summary sirdan did on Ythill...

I'm noting how quickly nuriens has dropped out of the top 4, to be replaced by pacman. Ecto had a major hand in this, and I'm remembering nuriens odd town read on Ecto from the begining of the day. Nhat also played a part, with horrible reasoning. Interesting...

Nothing surprising. I only had two top suspicions by ectomancer and citizen. And maybe a couple of honorable mentions, some of them as townie...To compromise of me was a bit complicated, so I guess Ecto moved his vote.

Now, with respect to my read on Ecto, I have to modify it. Not with respect to his alignment, as he mantains a very townie read, but about his style. I described him as a Buddhist observing the game but I guess I was wrong. I perceive now that his opinions are driven by very minor circumstances or punctual setences that people state. Kind of "intuitions" to a large extent. Probably Id like him to participate more with this attitude, as Im sure he focus on interesting points (if you remember, I never considered his "attack" on me scummy, and I accepted his point somehow..). I also want to see pacman's reaction. I saw kinda an "habitang" reaction, but this guy is not anymore habitang...

Judging by the placed votes, we're basically at a 4-way tie. Maybe people not so willing to change votes should make brief cases (just a paragraph or two) for their suspect and people willing to change their vote consider them? Or people could volunteer to switch now. Just a thought.

As far as I can see, my only compromising vote would be to vote for citizen. I guess that for many people would be interesting to reduce the 4 people suspicions to a 2 people race in order to decide. I guess Sirdan is one clear candidate. I suggest to propose who is the rival that raises more suspicions and confront them...

In my case, it is Citizen...

[Erratus Apathos]

Citizen Karne is being replaced.

[Cass]

*Sigh* More replacements. How about we just lynch Sir Karne instead of dragging the day out more waiting for replacements? I'm sorry if this sounds scummy, but my interest in this game is starting to flag - it's time for something to happen.

After reading recent posts, I've decided I won't vote Sirdan. I think he's town. I

will

switch my vote to Ythill or Pacman if we can agree on one of those lynches.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm opposed to a pacman lynch, but I'd be willing to lynch Ythill.

[nhat]

That's the entirety of your reasons for voting me. Now meta reveals that I have done this recently as a town-friendly role, and that it worked in that game to catch scum (hence me using it again). Even my most adamant attacker said, "Anyway, yes, you did utilize 'LOL whatever scum' here, and you badgered a bit, so yeah you utilized that tactic here," but you say the meta doesn't change your view.

Okay. If you're town, I'd suggest rethinking here because a Ythill card-flip today will put you on the gallows tomorrow. You've got all of sirdan's emptiness without any of his slippery tricks to hide it in.

Your secondary suspicions are no better. An abandonned wagon from midday and an annoyance policy lynch? I wonder why you're coming off this way now, I thought you were pretty solid in the early game.

Personally, I don't give a shit. This game bores me to death. I have other games that keep my attention. I play for fun, not to nit-pick through 27 dry ass pages to appease anyone.

Do you support my someone needs to die bandwagon?

Yes. Yes I do.

An interesting tidbit, in another game I'm playing, some of the players are trying to say that being replaced in a game without a good reason is a scumtell in itself. I don't totally buy it, but has anyone else seen this argument before?

[Ythill]

Ahahahahaha. You are so wrong, but so damn clever. Does everybody see what he's doing here? I metaed Ythill, and I said beforehand that meta doesn't prove anything...

So your premise here is that if you say something, that makes it true. You've confirmed that I've utilized this playstyle as town, which

proves

that it is a null tell. And it's the entire basis of your case.

And I don't care that you did it once before as a town, and that you were right.

More slippery stuff. You use "it" to refer vaguely to my behavior. I've said "whatever scum," once before. I've been aggressive plenty of times. And I've been right enough times that it's shown me why aggression is helpful. Which is why I've refined it in the past few games.

Having been right

does not

prove that I am right here. It

does

demonstrate why I think it is good play.

Ythill, I am pretty sure you know more than well that you can't disprove things by meta.

So if I said I'd never played in mini 542, you couldn't look to see that I had and disprove my statement by meta? You're making baseless assertions that are not even close to the truth. Also known as lying. With as much as you've lied in this game, I'm surprised we even need to talk about compromise.

First, Im not sure if this moves you from secondary to honorable, or mantains you at secondary.

If you read the initial criteria, you'll see that my move was legit.

Second and more important, you add one point to yourself instead of reducing one point of your total sum. If you consider this "honorable" you should have decreased your number to 12 contrary to what you did.

True, and thanks for catching my error. I think it's moot at this point though, because I agree with the suggestion that it's time to narrow the list anyway. I am entirely comfortable with the top three choices being sirdan, myself, and Karne... with one qualification: we should not lynch anyone without giving them the chance to claim. That means no hanging Karne until his replacement arrives.

As one of the top suspects, I'm awaiting cases and questions. Though it is Tuesday, so this will probably be my only post until tomorrow evening.

[Goatrevolt]

An interesting tidbit, in another game I'm playing, some of the players are trying to say that being replaced in a game without a good reason is a scumtell in itself. I don't totally buy it, but has anyone else seen this argument before?

It kind of depends on the situation, but I've seen similar arguments used before and been actually correct.

I personally feel that replacing out of a game (or even avoiding posting in a game while posting in others) while you are under pressure can be a definite scum tell under the right circumstances. Unless you have an actually legitimate excuse such as: "No internet access/lack of time to play (proven by posting in other games as well)/etc." I find replacing out while under pressure to be scummy.

I agree that nobody should be lynched without a claim, but I think that should go without having to be said.

[Simenon]

An interesting tidbit, in another game I'm playing, some of the players are trying to say that being replaced in a game without a good reason is a scumtell in itself. I don't totally buy it, but has anyone else seen this argument before?

It's not a good argument. It exists because it is necessary for this site to discourage flaking in any way possible. Such arguments arise out of that necessity. It's similar to "lynch all people who don't read their win condition." These metas exist only to discourage behaviors we find unethical. Nobody actually believed someone who doesn't read their role PM is damaging the town, but there needed to be a reason to justify lynching players for this bad behavior.

Also, Goat has it right that in some specific cases, requesting replacement could be motivated by alignment.

[Simenon]

If we can't get a lynch on sirdan or pacman, I'd be willing to vote for Ythill as a last resort.

[nureins]

True, and thanks for catching my error. I think it's moot at this point though, because I agree with the suggestion that it's time to narrow the list anyway. I am entirely comfortable with the top three choices being sirdan, myself, and Karne... with one qualification: we should not lynch anyone without giving them the chance to claim. That means no hanging Karne until his replacement arrives.

As one of the top suspects, I'm awaiting cases and questions. Though it is Tuesday, so this will probably be my only post until tomorrow evening.

I agree with the first part and we have to restrict the list of 4 (or 3, or whatever is...). I was laughing a bit, because right now, among you four, my suspect list is

sirdan > karne > pacman > ythill

and you are the last in the list..Im really amazed. I have some questions, but probably they are related to your attack on me and right now I have the feeling that it is just part of your playstyle. As far as I can see the 4 persons:

SIRDAN: For some people he is clearly scum. But Ythill took too much protagonism about his attack.

YTHILL: He is mainly considered scummy for his attack.

PACMAN: A combination of Habitang difficult to read stuff and a recent scumtell.

KARNE: His inactivity in defending his points and the cases on him.

I perceive a way to reduce the number of suspects to 2, though i dont want to force the situation at all. Since Sirdan and Ythill are somewhat connected, why dont we "vote" between these two to see if we consider more scummy sirdan or one of his main attackers ?

At the same time, while waiting for karne replacement, we can determine if confronting sirdan/ythill very heavy confrontation with either pacman/karne ...

If you agree, my votes are

SEMIFINAL 1. SIRDAN.
SEMIFINAL 2. KARNE.

[nureins]

Ill try to "interpret" your positions, and then we only need comments by the remaining people. If you accept these "votes", you do not need to comment about it.

SIRDAN VS YTHILL

SIRDAN: Nureins, simenon, jahudo (ythill)
YTHILL: Cass, Goatrevolt, nhat, (sirdan)

From the current 10 players I have no clear read (or I missed it) by pacman and ecto. If pacman and ecto agree on either sirdan or ythill, maybe we can compromise that SIRDAN is scummy or YTHILL is scummy and put one of them in the final...

PACMAN VS KARNE

PACMAN: Simenon, Ecto, nhat, (karne)
KARNE: Cass, Goat, Nureins, Jahudo (pacman)

Uff, Sirdan considers both of them "honorable" mentions, and Im unable to assign his "vote". If he considers karne more suspicious, we could pass him to the final.

If one or both semifinals end up in a draw, go to hell all of you !!

@all: please feel free to send this shit to hell. I cannot know how to reach a decision without creating too much feelings altered.
@pacman, ecto and karne. Can you give a view on the semifinals where I have not a clear view from you ?

[Jahudo]

sirdan over ythill, karne over pacman. If it's karne I want to hear from his replacement.

[nureins]

Forgot Ythill vote on Karne in semifinal 2 and the summary.

SUMMARY:

SIRDAN 4 - YTHILL 4
If we eliminate votes made by suspects, it is SIRDAN 3 - YTHILL 3.

pacman and ecto to give opinion. And given pacman is a candidate, I suggest to accept Ecto's view on who is top scummy among Sirdan and Ythill and finish the Sirdan/Ythill debate.

PACMAN 4 - KARNE 6.
Whichever Sirdan vote is, karne wins.
If we eliminate votes made by suspects, it is PACMAN 3, KARNE 4 and no remaining votes.


Definitely, my suggestion is to do the following. Karne versus the winner of Ythill and Sirdan. This winner can be determined by Ecto. This also compromises the fact that he is one of the main attackers of pacman.

If someone finds a better way to solve it, ill be delighted to follow. You can do whatever exercise you want with my votes if you respect my ordering as I stated it.

[nureins]

I also suggest the following process to minimize pages (Im compromising here as I would like more information):

1. Ecto decides on Sirdan/Ythill
2. Sirdan or Ythill makes a SINGLE post defending his position.
3. Each player writes at most one post to ask for clarifications. The possible lynch answers as he considers adequate.
4. As the replacement enters the game, he writes a SINGLE post talking about his/her view of the game and his/her scumminess inherited from past.
5. Each player writes at most one post to ask for questions.
6. We finish, hopefully in less than one week this day, by voting among these two persons.

[Erratus Apathos]

kuribo replaces Andycyca.

[kuribo]

Guess I best get to reading.

PS- Sup Ythill? Here we are again.

[kuribo]

And no offense to those who have taken measures to outline the game on this page, but I don't trust any of you enough to think you're town and not misleading me.*



* And for the record, neither should anyone else.

[Ythill]

Hi kurbio.

@nuriens: I do not like your "semi-final" thingie at all. There are lots of things I don't like about it, including false dichotomies and narrowing choices so that they are made by fewer players. I think you should probably just abandon it.

Furthermore, I find it highly questionable (especially after what I said recently about the possible link between you and Ecto) that you would suggest that Ecto should make a lone final decision about

anything

.

Let's just see if we can agree to narrow down the choices. K?

In fact, considering that Karne is going to be replaced, we already have the votes narrowed down to the top 4. Let's keep it that way. And start culling it further.

[Ythill]

LOL. I mean kur

ib

o. It was a typo... I swear...

[Ectomancer]

Nureins is fun.