Sunny 2: Rules of Im-peachment - Over!

[MariaR]

Time has a nice hidden wolfread that I agree with but given it's D1 I'll keep the focus on only 2 atm

[MariaR]

Time has a nice hidden wolfread that I agree with but given it's D1 I'll keep the focus on only 2 atm

Team

[Pink Ball]

Oh come on Maria. You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention

[MariaR]

Sorry Pinkie we need to focus on Zaiden and Jingle. Besides it isn't like anyone would listen to my third wolfread anyway. Just wait for day 2!

[Cheetory6]

@Pink Ball

,

1. Can you expand on your current read on Gamma's play so far this game? It seems like you have a decent amount of experience with him and his play so far seems ~interesting~
relative to my own expectations of him, would be interested in a full assessment from you.
(There's also that your read on him came on very very hot and has since mellowed out, so curious what's driven that for you?)

2. I'd like to poke at your Spring Breeze vote.
I'm pretty conflicted on you holding your reasoning for your read on her just from a like.. effectiveness standpoint?
Like, if I tell someone I'm scumreading them and I don't explain why and I use that as a means to get a reaction from them that's one thing.
It doesn't really feel like you're doing that there though because you've stated that you're like.. ridiculously confident about it already and don't need more information on her slot specifically.
Is there a reason you're not poking at other slots reactions around Spring? The only real interaction around Spring that you've touched is this:

Kanna just sucks at reading me generally so I'm weirded out that she's right but I'm waiting on her reply to that atm.

not sure what you want me to reply to? my teammates think you're town and after discussing with them, i agreed. i just read your catch up though and i had an epiphany that you're town by myself. i really see what infinity means by the spew whatever even if it looks bad = town!noraa now

i wouldn't say the "kanna can't read me" thing is accurate as well, i can point out to why i ended up reading you wrong in every one of those games and i think they were just unfortunate

Could you show us how exactly the conversation with your team wrt to Noraa was?

I have a whole case on you that I don't want to present because I have a team behind me that townleans you and don't want me to push you

I feel like you can ask Spring about things related to your reasoning without casing her in a way that would be a lot more productive than this.
Like, you've already put Spring under a microscope by voting for her and telling her you have a huge case on her.
Wouldn't it have been better to have not said anything about your read to see what happens
or to be pressuring them at this point because they're already going to be being careful?

3. Would also like some comprehensive thoughts on Jingle's play so far this game if you have some time to do so.

[Spring Breeze]

pooky, i’m mellllllting £_£

think i am townleaning morning a bit more strongly. this noraa attack was pretty bold and bold!morning=town!morning to me

i think i am still townreading noraa. i was going to look in the games, but i don’t want to doubt my read again and i think noraa’s just being really genuine in a way that’s hard to fake right now. infinity’s also already townlocked noraa so

morning and noraa should make up!

[MariaR]

I was reviewing some peoples pages on my google doc and I was laughing at how I had one person just labeled as 'Will never be helpful just Elim or clear down the line' I think I wrote that at 1 in the morning or something.

Although while I was reviewing I need more detail on Spring/SPF as they pique my interest.

[Jingle]

Acknowledging the quesstions cheet, but I'll get to you in a bit.

@Noraa Ari's been busy and hasn't shared much of anything yet, but he says he'll work on reading the game soon. He did say you yelled at him the last time he tried to meta read you and that you're similar in style to Nancy.

I completely agree with spf saying Maria's push on me is probably town, but I don't think it's quite for the same reasons. Maria doesn't fear pushing me at all as either alignment (she's a very confident player), but I don't think she prioritizes my elimination either. I think Maria thinks she wins a 1v1 against me basically every time, whether that's true or not. Sitting back and letting me and Noraa make a bunch of noise makes more sense for Mariascum than getting in the middle of things and risking blowback when I flip town and the scumread is exactly what I'd expect maria town to have on me here. I also don't think Maria/Noraa S/S would be quite so blatant in a coordinated push on me when Maria could much more easily let Noraa off the hook by picking her Zaiden push up right when I'm backing off of my Nora push.

WRT softclaiming thing: Yes. I believe that there is a high likelihood of Noraa having a role that has something to do with giving or receiving peaches. I am not sure which one, nor does that stop me from pushing Noraa. I have seen softs from people whose roles look to be based around that from no less than 5 people so far, and only one of those is AI in my opinion. I will not be sharing which at this time, because I lowkey think compulsive peach vendor is functionally the vanilla role this game. I would honestly be shocked if there wasn't a scum compulsive peach vendor or if there were more than two scum compulsive peach vendors, but sorting that at the moment is not worth narrowing down the PR pool.

WRT the level of confidence with which I push my reads: I always push my reads with a high level of confidence, because rhetorically people respond to confidence. If you want pressure somewhere, you damn well show you believe that somewhere needs pressure. That may have been exacerbated this game by the nature of the event, but it's not a scummy behavior at all.

To explain why it's exacerbated by the nature of the event, I need to point out that my team is inherently at a disadvantage. We rolled all town. That means, not only do we have to sweep our games to have any chance at winning the event, we have to be perceived as being more integral to our wins than any other team. So yeah, I'm going to try to be the one leading the scumpushes here, because I can't win the event without being the one leading the scumpushes.

Also unwnd and me both agree Jingle has openly tried to pocket people like Cakez (and is doing it successfully)

Honestly, just take a glance at Jingles iso and read it slowly. I have it written another way in my notes but my teammates is funnier so:

'Everything Jingle types looks like a scummy cars saleman trying to sell me a rip off on words alone'

Yes. I'm trying to sell the world I think is true using my words, because it's the world I think is true.

Besides the fact Jingle W means Cakez=T Cakez is still in his town game range on my notepad.

What's the logic, and is it invertible?

FWIW, I've been pretty openly antagonistic to Cakez and have been actively working at pocketing PB, which isn't at all AI for me because pocketing people as town is still just good play.

[Jingle]

I generally give the benefit of the doubt to people that soft and I do feel like jingle would do the same if town.

Depends on the soft and the context.

If anything, softing an NAI role and expecting it to net you townreads is a >rand scum move.

[Jingle]

from my experience in among us with cake!scum, he didn't use his confident attitude to maneuver his scum team into a position in which they could win the game, in fact he kind of cared more about his own survival than his team's odds of winning which led him to more or less wave a white flag and surrender after we flawlessly killed all his teammates and he kind of bussed his SPRs that he needed to keep alive to prevent town from winning. I don't think Cake!Scum would actually be opportunistic or sacrifice positioning to move closer to winning.

Knowing the context here (Among Us Mafia), I think it's worth pointing out that Cakez had a lot of discussion in the postgame of that thread and would almost certainly be gunshy about bussing after it, assuming he is in fact scum here. I don't really have a Cakez read yet, though.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

pooky, i’m mellllllting £_£

From this day until my last day.
I am yours and you will be mine.
Heart and soul you will have me all.
Nothing left to do for me but fall.

[Spring Breeze]

re jingle; i think the thing most concerning to me was the BoP read that you kept focusing on. not sure why it’s a big issue whether she’s played with you or not to BoP read you, i think you’re relatively known on the site. why is that scum indicative? can you go into that when you answer cheetory’s questions as well?

[Spring Breeze]

pooky, i’m mellllllting £_£

From this day until my last day.
I am yours and you will be mine.
Heart and soul you will have me all.
Nothing left to do for me but fall.

oh pooky £_£

[Zaiden]

I was reviewing some peoples pages on my google doc and I was laughing at how I had one person just labeled as 'Will never be helpful just Elim or clear down the line' I think I wrote that at 1 in the morning or something.

Ms MariaR, I don't feel so good. 0_0

[Jingle]

I think he said to stop crumbing because that's a townie thing to say.
But the fact that he then goes after someone that he apparently thinks crumbed is just weird?

You know, I actually vibe with this reasoning. I would like to see Jingle address this.

Let me know if you want me to do this after what I just posted, but I think I explained the "Stop crumbing" bit adequately already.

[MariaR]

What's the logic, and is it invertible?

I think Cakez is V regardless of your Align but it becomes self-evident on a W you flip. Is there a world where you're town? Sure, I'm waiting for a certain line of play. I don't mind going back to Zaiden or even putting my next wolf read on the table. But with the game state as it is atm I'm content just sitting here.

[MariaR]

Ms MariaR, I don't feel so good. 0_0

ZAIDEN NO IT'S NOT YOU I have many pages on how much I hate your posting and have ranted in my notes and to my team about it. Although I don't know if you consider that better or worse.

[Spring Breeze]

I feel like you can ask Spring about things related to your reasoning without casing her in a way that would be a lot more productive than this.
Like, you've already put Spring under a microscope by voting for her and telling her you have a huge case on her.
Wouldn't it have been better to have not said anything about your read to see what happens
or to be pressuring them at this point because they're already going to be being careful?

also yeah, i wasn’t sure how I was supposed to respond to you with this, pink ball, but it’ll be a lot more productive if you could just engage with me. i am town and if you’re town, this would be very beneficial to you !

I don’t believe there’s a reason you can’t reconsider me either

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Cake and Maria are scum together

VOTE: Cake

FLAREON FRIEND ROLLED TOWN REJOICE ~!!!!!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

Ms MariaR, I don't feel so good. 0_0

ZAIDEN NO IT'S NOT YOU I have many pages on how much I hate your posting and have ranted in my notes and to my team about it. Although I don't know if you consider that better or worse.

this is a strange reaction to someone you scumread

[MariaR]

Is it? Neat.

[Jingle]

Well it wasn't exactly a lolhammer but eh whatever. I've gotten hammered as a pr before and more than once. But even just starting a wagon on someone that scum think softed, getting a claim, and moving off is not terrible for scum.

Roughly 70% of the time when I see someone soft a PR I'm actually worried about as scum I deflect attention away from them as subtly as possible and then kill them. PRs are usually pretty susceptible to a soft defense route, and having them flip after you push them is almost always more trouble than it's worth.

If I *had* been scum here trying to angle for a claim from you as my master plan, it would definitely be because I was always expecting someone else on my team to carry the endgame, which simply doesn't make sense given the context of needing to be seen as integral to my team's victory for TM itself.

[Jingle]

What's the logic, and is it invertible?

I think Cakez is V regardless of your Align but it becomes self-evident on a W you flip. Is there a world where you're town? Sure, I'm waiting for a certain line of play. I don't mind going back to Zaiden or even putting my next wolf read on the table. But with the game state as it is atm I'm content just sitting here.

To be clear, you are saying that Jtown does not imply Cakezscum, but that it does weaken your read.

I kinda care less about your reasoning in that case.

[Pink Ball]

@Pink Ball

,

Spoiler:

1. Can you expand on your current read on Gamma's play so far this game? It seems like you have a decent amount of experience with him and his play so far seems ~interesting~
relative to my own expectations of him, would be interested in a full assessment from you.
(There's also that your read on him came on very very hot and has since mellowed out, so curious what's driven that for you?)

2. I'd like to poke at your Spring Breeze vote.
I'm pretty conflicted on you holding your reasoning for your read on her just from a like.. effectiveness standpoint?
Like, if I tell someone I'm scumreading them and I don't explain why and I use that as a means to get a reaction from them that's one thing.
It doesn't really feel like you're doing that there though because you've stated that you're like.. ridiculously confident about it already and don't need more information on her slot specifically.
Is there a reason you're not poking at other slots reactions around Spring? The only real interaction around Spring that you've touched is this:

Kanna just sucks at reading me generally so I'm weirded out that she's right but I'm waiting on her reply to that atm.

not sure what you want me to reply to? my teammates think you're town and after discussing with them, i agreed. i just read your catch up though and i had an epiphany that you're town by myself. i really see what infinity means by the spew whatever even if it looks bad = town!noraa now

i wouldn't say the "kanna can't read me" thing is accurate as well, i can point out to why i ended up reading you wrong in every one of those games and i think they were just unfortunate

Could you show us how exactly the conversation with your team wrt to Noraa was?

I have a whole case on you that I don't want to present because I have a team behind me that townleans you and don't want me to push you

I feel like you can ask Spring about things related to your reasoning without casing her in a way that would be a lot more productive than this.
Like, you've already put Spring under a microscope by voting for her and telling her you have a huge case on her.
Wouldn't it have been better to have not said anything about your read to see what happens
or to be pressuring them at this point because they're already going to be being careful?

3. Would also like some comprehensive thoughts on Jingle's play so far this game if you have some time to do so.

1. It mellowed down because I always find myself scumreading Gamma and I've come to the conclusion that I don't know how to read him. I agree with you that his play in here is interesting and he reminds me of Be Someone Else u!Pick where he was scum, where he tried to have a new approach and ended up being scum. That's all I can say about him.

2. I'm holding my reasoning 'cause, as I said, I'll get Spring eliminated today. And timing is crusial for that purpose. She's scum, that's all we need to know. You're right, I'm not trying to have a reaction out of her, I don't need that. You won't need that either. And I am poking reactions around Spring. But the less we talk about this, the better. You're asking yourself if my approach is effective or not without enough information.

3. I liked his read progression on me, particularly making Dann to read me. On a personal approach, I'd expect scum!Jingle to just make fluff posts directed at me 'cause he knows I would not scumread him ever if he did that. Instead, he caught my attention by saying he was scumreading me. I don't believe he was actually scumreading me, but he was trying to catch my attention, and he did. Scum!Jingle gets no utility out of that 'cause I'm never going to hard townread him to the point I'd defend him. Paraphrasing what xtoxm said, I'm reluctant to call him town this early, but I think he's worth keeping around for mech stuff later on. So his early scumread on me, his "hey, look what I'm doing" looked like a genuine atempt to sort me as early as possible; my weakest point as scum is when I haven't established myself yet. His approach towards Noraa was not bad as everyone has tried to convey. But since my read is almost entirely based on a thing related to me, and because Jingle is one of the players I most respect on this playerlist, I'm not ready to marry the idea of him being town. I don't need to be confident on that either.

[Jingle]

I mean, Zaiden isn't even saying that much compared to people like Noraa. It's pretty unfair to not read his posts just because he organizes his thoughts in one long post instead of many short ones.

Eh. A lot of Zaiden's posts have just made my eyes gloss over and not acknowledging that doesn't lead to him addressing that issue. It doesn't mean that he's wrong or that he's bad or that he's lesser, but it does give him an indication that trying to format his posts differently might lead to more effective communication.

Agreed that Murder could've phrased his point less inflammatorily, but it is a salient point to make.


Speaking of, could someone boil the case on Zaiden down for me? The only thing I can remember about it without looking back to check is a "He was coached" argument that I thought was inherently silly because I don't see Hectic as the type of person to recruit someone for Team Mafia to be a puppet. Hectic is way more about having a good time with fun people than that, and even if he wasn't I don't think he has the kind of ego to think "My best chances of winning is to be the only one playing." I could maybe see that type of teambuilding coming from RC or Koba, but even with someone that confident in their own skills I think they'd be more likely to recruit people they saw as being on a high level of initial play and also capable of taking direction well.