Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[nureins]

This post very quickly served to discredit Matin's concerns about TPT:

I saw it that way before TPT, I also want a bandwagon !!
Now seriously, after all the posts about the topic, I see two things in Matin's words:

1) that he felt Jahudo stole his vote for ectomancer. This part is what Matin used as any other reason he could use to make a "joke" vote on jahudo. And this is the part that Goatrevolt and Jahudo pointed out. I do not find this part very relevant, as I take Matin's way of voting as any joking way.

2) that he "changed" his mind from voting when jahudo stole the vote. I pointed out this question and later TPT insisted. In my view, not a very serious issue, so I just raised a question delicately to Matin in order to see his answer. I agree that he shouldnt be worried about putting a second vote on someone, and that hidding in the forest is not a good help for us...we do not need townies hidding if they are townies...now I want more words from Matin-jahudo-TPT-Goatrevolt-nhat to clarify my mind...

[/quote]

Quite funny your quote to suggest I helped tpt. I asked in random phase a stupid question to matin, post 16. Matin words were post 19 (that several ppl interpreted incorrectly, as later the debate showed, including me). I answered back in post 20 in a very relaxed way. TPT answered in post 25. The post you have copied PRECISELY SAYS THE CONTRARY YOU WANT TO SAY...

Where am i helping tpt ?

I saw in TPT and the subsequent reactions something interesting to analyze and precisely, I asked for more comments. How is this helping tpt ???

I pointed out several times to tpt, later with simenon "tpt is town" and with others, and you suggesting I STARTED DEFENDING TPT ???
About the goebels issue, you see, people is attacking ythill due to his aggressive style. Goebels word was precisely that, saying that he intended to put in the mind of others this word, etc...

I do not consider anymore, since i think it is writting style and not scumtell, so Im not gonna insist in this part of your summary...

So now the games are

Sirdan > ythll by one vote and ecto to give his opinion
karne > pacman by one vote and sirdan to give his opinion (or tied if we exclude suspects). In few words, a real mess...

[Ectomancer]

Good thing I've retired my aggressive playstyle for awhile. Every game needs a couple, but too many cooks in the kitchen as they say...

Nureins, you can see where my vote is. I could see where you might have town motivations in your analysis of the numbers where votes and such are concerned. I can also see how, as a result, you might be asking for those last 2 opinions in the manner that you have.
Here's the problem, even if you are town:

You have once again managed to ask a 'yes/no' type question, but even more you've created a type of false dilemma between pairs of players. I know you are trying to get this consensus thing together, but I dont like how you've created these head to head matchups. Even if you used a reason you didnt originally have influence over. The matchups were done

after

the vote tally accumulated. As long as that tally fit your design as scum (ie a couple townies are in the top), then you would have no reason as scum not to propose this the way you have.

So, I dont plan to answer your question as phrased. I'll rephrase it a bit and give some answer though. I'm unlikely to lynch Ythill today.

[Cass]

Well, Kuribo, that was an interesting read. I agree on many points, but sometimes it felt more like a caricature of the game... not that it doesn't deserve one. What i don't get is how my being tired of this day is scummy, while for Ythill it isn't. Nor is my case on Karne OMGUS. I think he's scum. I'm less convinced of anyone else. It's because I do think it's important WHO we lynch I also hate when people say 'give it up, this lynch is not going to happen', that really gets on my nerves. To quote your own words: I can vote whoever I damn well please.

Although after your long posts I'm tempted to vote Nuriens, if only because it'd be so very interesting if he actually flips town... (Yes, it'd be interesting as well if you're right about him.)

I also fail to see what made you prefer Pacman suddenly, even over scum-extreme-please-lynch-him-now Nuriens.

I also hate 30 page day ones.

[Ectomancer]

What i don't get is how my being tired of this day is scummy, while for Ythill it isn't.

I'm not certain why my name would not be tossed into the hat as well. Why would both of you leave me out of that particular riddle?

[Ectomancer]

Ecto wants someone dead. (Agreed) Ythill puts together a list of who suspects who. Cass wants the day over. (I think it matters WHO we lynch, just so you know)

I went and got the quote in question from Kuribo. It looks like he is painting a fine line distinction. I'd like to hear elaboration on the distinction from Kuribo, and also your answer Cass, on why you left me out. Am I being egotistical about being overlooked? I thought my statements stood out.

[Cass]

No particular reason. Might as well have been your name there, I didn't look back at Kuribo's post, but wnet from memory. My point was how something can be scummy for me, but not at all for others. (And no, I do not find this scummy in the least, which is why it doesn't seem so important to me who exactly said it.) Didn't mean to ignore you, the point wasn't about you or Ythill. I question why I got accused, not why you two didn't.

[nureins]

Here's the problem, even if you are town:

You have once again managed to ask a 'yes/no' type question, but even more you've created a type of false dilemma between pairs of players.

Im really confused here. I really do not see this false dilemma. I am not claiming that EITHER SIRDAN IS SCUM OR YTHILL IS SCUM. I just said that in a natural way, these two players were confronted somehow. The opinions over them are correlated. This is pretty clear in my case. The more I find sirdan scum, the more i find ythill townie, and viceversa. And I really perceive lot of people is having this views. You have plenty of examples around. I am sure that you agree with that idea, at least partially.

This was the only point. I found it very natural. If we have no clear view about the lynch, I feel it would be easier for me to determine if either we consider sirdan or ythill scummy (as i hardly see both of them like that), and then proceed.

I was not claiming at any moment that my way was the best. It was surely a shit. But I also asked people to do whatever they want with my opinions, as you can clearly perceive that we remain in a very non-coordinated voting situation. And nobody has done anything...

Except Ythill, who presented a defense of somebody else in the list of 4. That sounds to me quite townie, and so he remains down in that list of 4...

The matchups were done

after

the vote tally accumulated.

I agree with that. But your vote and some extra votes were left. And I mentioned that any other possibility is ok. Choose pairs, choose a system and if you respect my order, you are welcome to use them. If you have noticed, the four of them are tied all around...look, you want a method, here is a method:

Choose two different persons in the game, not in the group of four. Person 1 invents a way to aggregate the opinions of the 7 players (apart the group of four), giving points to the positions...Person 2 has the power to reject it, if it is not good. Then we eliminate the person among the four candidates with less points. And we try to vote in a normal way among the 3 that survive...As there is much confusion about the 4, maybe taking one out is easier...

And while this is done, replacement of karne is in.

[pacman281292]

I'm gonna leave city now. Long post coming today later or tomorrow (seriously).

[Ectomancer]

Here's the problem, even if you are town:

You have once again managed to ask a 'yes/no' type question, but even more you've created a type of false dilemma between pairs of players.

Im really confused here. I really do not see this false dilemma. I am not claiming that EITHER SIRDAN IS SCUM OR YTHILL IS SCUM. I just said that in a natural way, these two players were confronted somehow. The opinions over them are correlated. This is pretty clear in my case. The more I find sirdan scum, the more i find ythill townie, and viceversa. And I really perceive lot of people is having this views. You have plenty of examples around. I am sure that you agree with that idea, at least partially.

No, I don't. Let me try again to explain it using your statements:

I am not claiming that EITHER SIRDAN IS SCUM OR YTHILL IS SCUM.

Ok, so here you say that you are not claiming that either one is scum.

This is pretty clear in my case. The more I find sirdan scum, the more i find ythill townie, and viceversa.

Yet here, you set up the teeter-totter board on them. (The higher one goes up, the lower the other goes and vice-versa)

You see, it's a false dilemma of 'which is scum', when neither or both could be.

I really perceive lot of people is having this views. You have plenty of examples around. I am sure that you agree with that idea, at least partially.

If you mean that people agree with your teeter-totter view on Sirdan and Ythill, that is simply your opinion unless other players explicitly state it. You simply do not know why people are placing their votes where they are, even if they state it. (lying scum, gambiting town, etc) For all I know, Nureins, Sirdan, and Ythill are the scum. Nureins has decided he is going to be lynched regardless, especially after Kuribo showed up, and is setting up a false dichotomy between his 2 scum partners to facilitate a win later.
Do you see?
Please don't try to break down a case against you 3 being scum with quotes and crap. I'm not presenting it as a case, but as an example of why your actions are bad ones. Try viewing them through Suspicion Colored Glasses.

[nhat]

V/LA from Sunday until Wednesday.

[kuribo]

No particular reason. Might as well have been your name there, I didn't look back at Kuribo's post, but wnet from memory. My point was how something can be scummy for me, but not at all for others. (And no, I do not find this scummy in the least, which is why it doesn't seem so important to me who exactly said it.) Didn't mean to ignore you, the point wasn't about you or Ythill. I question why I got accused, not why you two didn't.

It's called, "One of you has been acting scummy in my mind, and the other has not." Also, tossed in with a bit of "One of you seems to be genuinely scumhunting, the other just wants a lynch."

I also fail to see what made you prefer Pacman suddenly, even over scum-extreme-please-lynch-him-now Nuriens.

Because lately he's the scummier of the two. You see, we don't have to catch ALL of the scum on Day 1. It isn't like I said, "Yeah, let's lynch Pacman, Nureins is completely town." On the contrary, I'm going to be watching nureins like a hawk. But I don't like alot of pacman's reactions in the last several pages of my read. For the record, I don't like nureins' attempts to streamline the game to his liking in the time just before I joined.

Please address my defense of pacman. If it's horribly wrong and you can show me how, maybe I'll vote with you, but only because I've got a good read on you.

I feel like alot of your defense in regards to pacman relies on the assumption that habit was a village idiot. As you well know, (especially with it being on this very page) newbishness is a null-tell because scum can be stupid, too. If you let people avoid lynch by way of "being the village idiot," you open the door for any number of terrible plays, and hurt the town in the process. Although I understand you defended pacman at great risk to yourself, Ythill, I think that alot of it makes assumptions that the reader shares your view of some of his actions. (ie, things that you don't find scummy, but some of the rest of us do)

[pacman281292]

OK, as promised...

sorry for not posting. I've been trying to reread, and I typed some incomplete answers into the reply box, but I didn't send them.

Well, well... reading through kuribo...

Pacman says a long day 1 means lots of info. (Yes, but an OVERLY LONG Day 1 also means bandwagons lose steam, people become apathetic, and people forget what happened 20 pages ago) Ecto votes pacman for his misguided statement.

Thanks for clearing it. I finally understand why did Ecto attack me.

I'm at L-3. And I have no idea about deadlines (I think that there is... but I haven't seen it...). And I'm facing a LA period during the weekend.

My thoughts on players (as kuribo wished):

Ythill: I don't know what to say about him. His thoughts were centered on attacking sirdanilot and answering from nureins when I replaced in. And he still keeps on sirdan. hmm... as a low-experienced player*, I don't know what to say...

*I'm the low-experienced. Just making things go clear.

sirdanilot: He is hard to read (in my opinion). Also focused in his debate against Ythill, answering from nureins, and posting some thoughts at the end of his posts. hmm... but now he is missing... I think that he must try to post his thoughts on the situation we have...

Ectomancer: He was really inactive when I replaced in. He (fortunately) arrived back. He began to post some one-phrase posts. I was thinking that it was only nonsense. Now, thanks to kuribo, I see that that was not nonsense. He had posted some completely nonsense posts (like "nureins is fun"), but I will try to understand more carefully your posts

kuribo: I'm very happy with his page-by-page analysis. It cleared my mind, and made me understand some things (as Ecto's idea of cutting off the day). I really like his posts. Thanks

nureins: I agree with kuribo in the "false dilemma" point. His idea of "Ythill vs sirdan, Karne vs pacman" was good as an analysis, but I think that not as a true voting system. Acted as an interrogator into the sirdan vs Ythill discussion. Some weak points, some good points... I don't know what to say...

Darox/Citizen Karne: hmmm... Darox hadn't posted still content (he is surely rereading). I didn't understand CK's post well.

nhat: He has been posting very little content during this day. He also need to post some content. Really.

Simenon: Attacked me (along with Ectomancer) and made some confusing posts (lwho look like nonsense, but I'm now aware with it). and now he is inactive. Hmm...

Goatrevolt/Jahudo/Cass: I hadn't read their posts very well. Their posts are lost into lots and lots of posts into the Ythill vs sirdan. I need to reread them, or I will be lost...

Well, I still don't have an official list-o-scum. And I might as well not to have one of them. I don't want to be trapped into a misread from my own...

Sorry if my post is unreadable. My grammar is really bad

[Ectomancer]

Well, I still don't have an official list-o-scum. And I might as well not to have one of them. I don't want to be trapped into a misread from my own...

That's ok, I'm not certain that I care for them anyhow.

P.S. - people tend to want to lynch you if you are apologetic (in my experience). I think that both town and scum can be apologetic myself, and so think it is a null tell.

unvote

I considered leaving my vote on a bit longer, but am doubtful of getting returns on it. Still deciding who to hang after the positive flow of the latest conversation.

[Simenon]

Since when am I inactive?

[Ythill]

But I don't like alot of pacman's reactions in the last several pages of my read.

Could you summarize this case briefly? Maybe I just lost your points in the rhetoric of your catch-up WOWs, but I don't recall a lot of evidence being raised.

I feel like alot of your defense in regards to pacman relies on the assumption that habit was a village idiot.

Not "assumption."

Possibility.

Honestly, the strongest evidence of habit being town has nothing to do with his behavior. It is the way that the wagon on him grew and diminished so quickly, as well as the timing of that wagon. Pope and/or nuriens, if either is scum, would have benefited from the distraction even if there was no mislynch of habitang.

I also don't want you to think I'm suggesting that habit=VI therefore habit=town. Not at all. I am simply saying that a lot of his behavior could be interpreted that way, which makes him a less favorable lynch than sirdan, who has done plenty of things which can't be easily explained from

any

town perspective.

...I think that alot of it makes assumptions that the reader shares your view of some of his actions. (ie, things that you don't find scummy, but some of the rest of us do)

Again, there is no assumption. I am asking those with different views to explain them to me, and perhaps debate a little. If you can show me that pacman is a better lynch than sirdan, I will vote with you. So far, you have not.

Anyway... I'm going to try to do a reread of Karne and company at some point this weekend. I'll share my thoughts once I'm done.

[kuribo]

I'm at L-3.

.......................................

And I might as well not to have one of them. I don't want to be trapped into a misread from my own...

Just for the record, I read L-3 (which isn't even close to a lynching majority) as a statement from someone who's getting worried.

Also, I don't like not wanting to post your opinion for fear of being trapped.

[kuribo]

But I don't like alot of pacman's reactions in the last several pages of my read.

Could you summarize this case briefly? Maybe I just lost your points in the rhetoric of your catch-up WOWs, but I don't recall a lot of evidence being raised.

Its the impression that I got from him, that in the last few pages, once pressure was being applied to him, he started to get worried. I can go back and look through this again if you'd like, but it'll have to wait a bit.

[Ythill]

Worry could suggest a number of things. I believe he's been transparent, so let's just ask him.

@pacman: Are you worried about being lynched? If so, why? What did you mean by "trapped into a misread"?

[nureins]

Ok, so here you say that you are not claiming that either one is scum.

This is pretty clear in my case. The more I find sirdan scum, the more i find ythill townie, and viceversa.

Yet here, you set up the teeter-totter board on them. (The higher one goes up, the lower the other goes and vice-versa)

I understand your point better now.

I know that language is delicate, especially when posting. Please notice that my sentence had no intention of creating a dilemma. I truly perceive a harsh fight against ythill and sirdan and I truly believe that this harsh fight has influenced in many senses my views on sirdan and ythill. I had my own case on sirdan, and this case grown clearly with time. Later, the harsh fight influenced me even a bit more, creating a slightly better opinion on ythill and a slightly worse one on sirdan. I also believe other players have been influenced by this harsh fight.

And again I welcome very much any suggestion to break our current situation, which is almost that of a group without any clear option.

Acted as an interrogator into the sirdan vs Ythill discussion.

Ecto, you have here an anecdotical example of what I was describing. ythill occupied all the attention in the sirdan show. I do not mind, he did well at some moments, and it complemented some of my points on sirdan.

@pacman: Just a clarification...I was not an interrogator into nobody else case. I had my own view. I started before ythill did, and my case evolved parallel, and with a sufficient level of independence...

[Darox]

Too. Much. Text.
Seriously.

Unvote, Vote: Pacman

He came out on top of the group of people I found scummy.

[Erratus Apathos]

Vote Count

sirdanilot: (3) nureins, Ythill, Jahudo
pacman281292: (3) Simenon, kuribo, Darox
Ythill: (2) sirdanilot, nhat
Darox: (2) Cass, Goatrevolt

Not voting: pacman281292, Ectomancer

[sirdanilot]

Darox, could you post some content please. What do you think about your predecessor? What do you think about recent big debates? Why is pacman more scummy than anyone else?

I could ask more questions but I'm sure that you can handle 'posting more content' yourself very well.

Pacman, I'm not sure what you mean with that I am 'gone'. If you want me to post anything specifically, just ask.

[Ythill]

Just waiting on pacman to answer my questions.

I've skimmed Karne and company but haven't had time to do a thorough reread. My general impression was that he's not the best lynch at this point... not even as scummy as pacman.

@Darox: Why is pacman the play? Please address my defense of him (#716). You complained about wordiness so I'm wondering... did you read all of the long posts or just skim them? Is there anything of mine that you would like summarized?

[Ythill]

Also @Darox: You mentioned a "group of people" you found scummy. Mind sharing their identities?

[nureins]

Ill be also delighted to hear opinions about the voting behavior. I give my opinions in parenthesis, but Im afraid they are consistent with my view of ythill as the less scummy in the group of 4.

a) ythill mantains his vote solidly (for me, townie as he thinks his case is partially correct)

b) sirdan mantains his vote solidly (in that sense, this is good for my view of him. He has not tried to jump over other wagons)

c) darox voted for pacman without any reason (in my opinion, scummy, as he has used his vote to push up someone in the suspect list and no reason whatsoever)

d) pacman is not voting (in my opinion, scummy. He is not expressing a clear vote on someone, maybe to use it later if he needs it)

From the rest of people, I do not understand very well why Jahudo was voting for sirdan if he considered karne more suspicious. But I guess this is irrelevant now as darox is a replacement and lot of noise around him