Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Jahudo]

For people who want to debate habitang: I did a mostly complete pbpa in post 411 and nureins commented on that in 413, and my reasons for voting summarized on 419 (this should all be on page 17). Although it seemed every post I made between page 13 to 17 or so was about habit so I can go back over any parts if wanted.

One set of questions I can think of: What do people read from when habit started talking about the vigilante and said we should no lynch. Did it seem like he was relying on the vig to catch scum? Is it a strong tell that he was diverting scum hunting to talk about the setup and suggest this no lynch so late in the day?

[Ythill]

I looked over it again in context.

We already know where Habit got the vig assumption from and, though he was wrong to assume, it seemed like an honest msitake. As for the no lynch, I've seen n00b-town suggest this more than anyone. I think this is because n00bs see the lynch as solely an instrument of killing, rather than a way to create a good record for future hunts. From that viewpoint, the lack of a clear candidate makes it seem like a bad idea to kill, because a mislynch is so likely.

In habit's case, he seemed genuinely confused by the ongoing arguments and disillusioned about the fact that nobody was listening to his case on Jah. He had given up on Jah for the moment, Most scum in that case, I think, would have moved on to another target or picked sides in one of the ongoing fights. Instead, habit took a stance against lynching altogether, while harboring continued suspicion of Jah (which came out later).

I don't think any of this

proves

that Habit is town, but there is certainly room for reasonable doubt.

The most damning evidence in the post is habit's 4 scum assumption. I've never seen townies assume more or less than 3 scum and there could be ulterior motives in assuming 4.

[sirdanilot]

Nureins and kuribo can continue bickering for as long as they please, Ectomancer.

They can continue bickering and get nowhere. If kuribo is so damn hot to get on and lynch somebody, he could have simply posted the last statement and been done with it instead of dragging the crap out over an entire page.
Both of them stated they were making certain assumptions that flew over the head of the other.

Yes, they can continue bickering and get nowhere. The content of that bickering won't give us any information, but the bickering itself may. If it's not pro-town to continue bickering, and yet they continue bickering, that gives us information. If you don't want them to bicker, lynch them.

Get. Over. It.

Get. Over. What. Ending. All. Of. Your. Words. With. Periods. Is. Annoying. And. Doesn't. Reinforce. Your. Case.

unvote

I doubt Darox is going to be budged by me without outside support.

vote Sirdanilot

I hate this voting style. You should vote the person you find the most likely to be scum. Who is more likely to be scum, Darox or me? You pick. The fact that more people are voting me doesn't mean I am more likely to be scum.

How about letting them answer, Sir "I have to get this Pro-town statement in"?

There's nothing anti-town about a pro-town statement.

Unfortunately for you, it isn't a Pro-town statement

at this juncture in a game

.

FYI, I posted that when the deadline was not yet in place. Look back.

Makes it better for you if they

do

bicker doesn't it? With town itching to lynch, it makes it just that much more likely that the focus will center on the top vote getters (one is you) and if you can get two town members to take up time bickering with each other, so much the better.

Need 3 more.

Again, that was before the deadline. Anyway, my point was not that I want them to bicker. I said that they

can

bicker if they want to. Look up to see my reasoning.

I see your post as very bad and not a good reason to vote for me at all. It's because of posts like these that scum can take control of the game.


Anyway, more important matters. I am going to keep my vote on Ythill, since I am rather sure that he is scum and I do not see a reason to vote anyone else (unlike our friend ectomancer, who prefers not to keep his vote on this number one suspect if that gives him a tactical disadvantage). Only if changing my vote could prevent a no-lynch, I would lynch someone not named Ythill.

[Simenon]

Get. Over. What. Ending. All. Of. Your. Words. With. Periods. Is. Annoying. And. Doesn't. Reinforce. Your. Case.

What "case" are you referring to here?
~~
Of course, I'd be willing to lynch Sirdan. He's my #2.

[Ectomancer]

Nureins and kuribo can continue bickering for as long as they please, Ectomancer.

They can continue bickering and get nowhere. If kuribo is so damn hot to get on and lynch somebody, he could have simply posted the last statement and been done with it instead of dragging the crap out over an entire page.
Both of them stated they were making certain assumptions that flew over the head of the other.

Yes, they can continue bickering and get nowhere. The content of that bickering won't give us any information, but the bickering itself may. If it's not pro-town to continue bickering, and yet they continue bickering, that gives us information. If you don't want them to bicker, lynch them.

There is a difference between an action that is not pro-town and an action that is scummy. You should know this. I don't lynch over an action that is not scummy.

You were a top vote getter before your statement. The deadline was not in consideration when referring to the juncture in the game that would precipitate your action.

[pacman281292]

hmm.

I have reread the nureins vs kuribo discussion. And, in my opinion, it was very pointless. I can't find how that misundertanding provoked that discussion. Just my opinion.

sirdan is becoming extremely overreactive since the Ythill vs sirdan discussion finished. His #827 is really scary:

Yes, they can continue bickering and get nowhere. The content of that bickering won't give us any information, but the bickering itself may. If it's not pro-town to continue bickering, and yet they continue bickering, that gives us information. If you don't want them to bicker, lynch them.

hmm... if bickering would send us to nowhere, then stop bickering is the best ending for it. And most, given the situation we are having right now. We are hoping to end the day, we don't want to keep a discussion until a no-lynch deadline.

Get. Over. What. Ending. All. Of. Your. Words. With. Periods. Is. Annoying. And. Doesn't. Reinforce. Your. Case.

If. It. Is...
bah.
If it is annoying, don't do that. Three words is less annoying than... wait, 17 words?! And, given Ecto's playstyle I didn't consider it annoying. Yeah, maybe that was not needed. But yours is really annoying.

I hate this voting style. You should vote the person you find the most likely to be scum. Who is more likely to be scum, Darox or me? You pick. The fact that more people are voting me doesn't mean I am more likely to be scum.

Given this deadline situation, that voting style wouldn't be the worst. The plan is to finish the day with a lynch. And it looks like it's between me and you. This part is not completely bad, but...

The last part is an answer to the misundertanding from Ecto. But Ecto's post might not be a completely out-of-place post; given the situation from before (compromise lynch trying to cut off a really long day), that might not be bad.

hmm...

Sorry for my bad grammar, again. I have my head overloaded.

[Ythill]

Anyway, more important matters. I am going to keep my vote on Ythill, since I am rather sure that he is scum and I do not see a reason to vote anyone else... Only if changing my vote could prevent a no-lynch, I would lynch someone not named Ythill.

That's odd. Rather than cling to a lost cause, most townies would probably pick the scummiest of the top candidates at this juncture so as to best avoid a mislynch. Oh wait... that would be you...

Okay, I understand you perfectly. Don't worry, you shouldn't have to change your vote.

I also find the timing of this comment defensive because we were just talking about how scum would vote the other candidate and, well, you want to... don'tcha? But only at the last minute...

[Ythill]

Cross-posted.

Compare the last posts of sirdan and pacman. Do it... you know you want to do it.

Which one is the play?

[Ythill]

Also...

@pacman: If you know you are town and you know the lynch is down to you and sirdan, why haven't you voted him yet?

[kuribo]

People are voting, Cass. Except pacman which, considering the circumstances, is another suggestion of his alignment. With the deadline in place, scum pacman should already be voting for sirdan.

Scum pacman could be scum sirdan's partner, though, and that could be why A) Scum pacman isn't voting, and B) scum sirdan is clinging to a lost cause instead of voting Scum pacman.

Or, maybe Scum pacman doesn't want to touch Townie Sirdan's wagon with a ten foot pole because he knows the outcome. Or maybe Scum sirdan is doing likewise with Townie pacman's wagon.

Or, maybe the next part is, "Unless that's what they WANT us to think," and everything after that is WIFOM.

I don't think you've considered every possibility here.

[Ythill]

They want us to think they're scum? That doesn't make any sense. There is a bit o' WIFOM involved, but not as you've described it.

WIFOM is pretty unavoidable in MS, especially D1, but it's not like I've made these arguments in a vacuum. There is still a substantial unanswered case against sirdan; I don't see as much of a case against pacman and the points I do see have other possible explanations.

I've never stated that pacman is obv-town. My argument has been that sirdan is a better lynch.

Did you compare their lasts posts? Any conclusions?

[nureins]

@ecto and nhat: Some pressure over them with enough time for deadline would be appreciated...

@ythill: I really do not see anything particularly good or bad in the last posts, and I read them twice...i neither understand why you ask pacman about his no-vote to sirdan if you find this a townie behavior...

[kuribo]

Or, maybe Scum pacman doesn't want to touch Townie Sirdan's wagon with a ten foot pole because he knows the outcome. Or maybe Scum sirdan is doing likewise with Townie pacman's wagon.

Or, maybe the next part is, "Unless that's what they WANT us to think," and everything after that is WIFOM.

What I meant is that maybe that WANT us to think they're avoiding a wagon. IE, if one were town, and the other scum, maybe the scum knows that the other guy will come up town and he can later say, "But, I wasn't on the bandwagon!"

[nureins]

What I meant is that maybe that WANT us to think they're avoiding a wagon. IE, if one were town, and the other scum, maybe the scum knows that the other guy will come up town and he can later say, "But, I wasn't on the bandwagon!"

As far as I understand it, this is what ythill thinks that sirdan is doing by avoiding to vote pacman. I am lost because I thought this was not scummy at all...

In any case, pacman is not voting either, so this argument applies to both of them and then we have to lynch according to previous attitudes...you two are really making things even more complicated with such subtle analysis...

[sirdanilot]

Ugh, I lost a big post due to stupid CPU.

What "case" are you referring to here?
~~
Of course, I'd be willing to lynch Sirdan. He's my #2.

I meant his reasoning to vote me, not really a case. Also, it wasn't really meant seriously. You should know to ignore comments like that.

hmm... if bickering would send us to nowhere, then stop bickering is the best ending for it. And most, given the situation we are having right now. We are hoping to end the day, we don't want to keep a discussion until a no-lynch deadline.

Yes, it would be better to stop bickering, as the bickering is useless. However, if they continue to bicker, this puts suspicion on them because they continue to do something anti-town.

If. It. Is...
bah.
If it is annoying, don't do that. Three words is less annoying than... wait, 17 words?! And, given Ecto's playstyle I didn't consider it annoying. Yeah, maybe that was not needed. But yours is really annoying.

It wasn't meant seriously. Stop taking it seriously. Just ignore it.

That's odd. Rather than cling to a lost cause, most townies would probably pick the scummiest of the top candidates at this juncture so as to best avoid a mislynch. Oh wait... that would be you...

Define a mislynch. For me, a mislynch would be either a) someone not you or in my list of suspects) or b) a No-lynch. Since b) is worse than a), I'd be willing to do a) over b). But you, Ythill, are most likely scum, so obviously prefer to keep my vote on you.

Okay, I understand you perfectly. Don't worry, you shouldn't have to change your vote.

I also find the timing of this comment defensive because we were just talking about how scum would vote the other candidate and, well, you want to... don'tcha? But only at the last minute...

No I don't want to. I want to lynch you.

Cross-posted.

Compare the last posts of sirdan and pacman. Do it... you know you want to do it.

Which one is the play?

Absolutely horrible. My last post is not a good indication of my alignment, same for pacman. Another scumtell for Ythill.

Town, can you really allow yourself to get lead by someone like this? He's just trying to manipulate you. Come on. 'do it...you know you want to do it'. This is just ridiculous. This is just an appeal to emotion.

And no, don't accuse me of hypocrisy here, I did not do the same as you did.

[kuribo]

What I meant is that maybe that WANT us to think they're avoiding a wagon. IE, if one were town, and the other scum, maybe the scum knows that the other guy will come up town and he can later say, "But, I wasn't on the bandwagon!"

As far as I understand it, this is what ythill thinks that sirdan is doing by avoiding to vote pacman. I am lost because I thought this was not scummy at all...

In any case, pacman is not voting either, so this argument applies to both of them and then we have to lynch according to previous attitudes...you two are really making things even more complicated with such subtle analysis...

Yes, but what I was saying is that any criticism of sirdan not voting pacman should also spill onto pacman for not voting at all.

[kuribo]

That's odd. Rather than cling to a lost cause, most townies would probably pick the scummiest of the top candidates at this juncture so as to best avoid a mislynch. Oh wait... that would be you...

Define a mislynch. For me, a mislynch would be either a) someone not you or in my list of suspects) or b) a No-lynch. Since b) is worse than a), I'd be willing to do a) over b). But you, Ythill, are most likely scum, so obviously prefer to keep my vote on you.
Absolutely horrible. My last post is not a good indication of my alignment, same for pacman. Another scumtell for Ythill.

Town, can you really allow yourself to get lead by someone like this? He's just trying to manipulate you. Come on. 'do it...you know you want to do it'. This is just ridiculous. This is just an appeal to emotion.

And no, don't accuse me of hypocrisy here, I did not do the same as you did.[/quote]

A "mislynch," is when a townie gets lynched.

And statements like "you're allowing yourselves to get led by someone like this," "He's manipulating you," and "This is ridiculous." Do you know what that's called? Yep. An appeal to emotion. Because you're expecting people to say, "BY GOD HE'S RIGHT!" and then turn on Ythill.

[nureins]

And statements like "you're allowing yourselves to get led by someone like this," "He's manipulating you," and "This is ridiculous." Do you know what that's called? Yep. An appeal to emotion. Because you're expecting people to say, "BY GOD HE'S RIGHT!" and then turn on Ythill.

@kuribo: Sirdan was even more melodramatic before. Remember the ythill vs (Jahudo and nureins) ? Sirdan never talked again about this slip...and I am yet waiting but I am too repetitive

[sirdanilot]

Define a mislynch. For me, a mislynch would be either a) someone not you or in my list of suspects) or b) a No-lynch. Since b) is worse than a), I'd be willing to do a) over b). But you, Ythill, are most likely scum, so obviously prefer to keep my vote on you.
Absolutely horrible. My last post is not a good indication of my alignment, same for pacman. Another scumtell for Ythill.

Town, can you really allow yourself to get lead by someone like this? He's just trying to manipulate you. Come on. 'do it...you know you want to do it'. This is just ridiculous. This is just an appeal to emotion.

And no, don't accuse me of hypocrisy here, I did not do the same as you did.

A "mislynch," is when a townie gets lynched.

And statements like "you're allowing yourselves to get led by someone like this," "He's manipulating you," and "This is ridiculous." Do you know what that's called? Yep. An appeal to emotion. Because you're expecting people to say, "BY GOD HE'S RIGHT!" and then turn on Ythill.

Anyway, you give us an objective definition of a mislynch. I appreciate that, as it allows me to reply to Ythill in a new perspective. As for the appeal to emotion part, you are partially right. I lowered myself to Ythill's level there, and I shouldn't have. I'm sorry for that.

However, do you agree that Ythill's statement was an appeal to emotion as well?

That's odd. Rather than cling to a lost cause, most townies would probably pick the scummiest of the top candidates at this juncture so as to best avoid a mislynch. Oh wait... that would be you...

Lynching pacman would be a mislynch, since I am not convinced pacman is scum at all. I am however rather sure that you are scum, so the chances of us mislynching would be smaller if we lynched you. Only if a no-lynch is unavoidable if I don't change my vote, I will vote pacman.

[kuribo]

No, he's not saying, "We need to hurry up and get the lynch," he's saying, that the most pro-town choice of action would be to X.

The chances of us mislynching AREN'T greater if we lynch pacman--- Both he and you have been far scummier than Ythill in about 90% of the towns' minds: We actually have a GREATER chance of a mislynch if we lynch someone that seems less scummy.

[Simenon]

Ugh, I lost a big post due to stupid CPU.

What "case" are you referring to here?
~~
Of course, I'd be willing to lynch Sirdan. He's my #2.

I meant his reasoning to vote me, not really a case. Also, it wasn't really meant seriously. You should know to ignore comments like that.

Nice try, but I'm not going to ignore it when you throw crap around, whether you mean it as a joke or not.

[pacman281292]

Also...

@pacman: If you know you are town and you know the lynch is down to you and sirdan, why haven't you voted him yet?

Good point.
I'm still hesitating. I see that Darox is also scummy; He had only posted "pacman is scum, pacman is scum", and very little content.

Lastly, I have seen some really bad posts from sirdan. I really hate his 827 (as explained in my 829), and his 839 is extremely confusing (maybe because he lost part of it? I have no idea). His 843 isn't that bad, but I still dislike his play.

I hesitate about voting, but I will do the same sirdan is going to do; I will keep looking around, and if it is down to deadline and lynch, I will vote him.

Unvote

if I'm still voting Darox.

[Ythill]

i neither understand why you ask pacman about his no-vote to sirdan if you find this a townie behavior...

I'd like to know his reasoning because I would like to talk him into voting for sirdan soon (see below).

Cross-posted.

Compare the last posts of sirdan and pacman. Do it... you know you want to do it.

Which one is the play?

Absolutely horrible. My last post is not a good indication of my alignment, same for pacman. Another scumtell for Ythill.

So your assertion is that your opinion is the truth and you don't need to back it up? Hardly.

sirdan's #827: sliding stance on bickering, annoyance. with. punctuation, annoyance with a pro-town compromise vote, slippery comment, two cites to the deadline strawman, baseless assertion, defensive unwillingness to compromise.

pacman's #830: brief on-topic opinion, valid tell on sirdan (who is deflecting suspicion to the bickerers), calls sirdan out on pointless comments, townie view of the deadline compromise situation (+ accepts his role in the top two), defense of Ecto's reasonable vote.

Come on. 'do it...you know you want to do it'. This is just ridiculous. This is just an appeal to emotion.

What difference does it make if I use a logical fallacy to talk others into

making their own comparison

? Besides, it was more of a directive than an appeal, made with tongue in cheek.

We don't have much time left. Stop arguing un-pithy minutae. Implicate your buddies instead.

As far as I understand it, this is what ythill thinks that sirdan is doing by avoiding to vote pacman. I am lost because I thought this was not scummy at all...

I think people are missing my point. Sirdan has tunnel-vision based on very weak "evidence." His vote currently has a lack of town support. It would behoove him, as either scum or town, to vote pacman but he can't really do a natural vote change because he's dug his feet in on me. If he was town, this would be no problem because he wouldn't be so worried about being lynched.

Pacman, meanwhile, has been floating around. He had no aggresively pursued target. As the town has slowly been turned on to the idea of sirdan-scum, pacman has had multiple chances to jump on that wagon. As suspicions narrowed to sirdan and he as the top two, pacman was in a perfect position to vote for sirdan but still refrained.

When I pointed this out, sirdan made a post about why he was voting me and what, exactly, would cause him to vote for pacman. He's setting up his escape hatch for deadline so as to avoid suspicion tomorrow if he gets the chance to save himself by hanging pacman. Meanwhile, he's pushing suspicion on Ecto (for the same compromise sirdan has announced, just with different timing), nuriens and kuribo (using a sliding stance to finger them for an innocent misunderstanding), and myself (because OMGUS and cherry-picking makes me obv-scum, don'tcha know). None of this smokescreening is pro-town at all.

These are the actions of scum under pressure. Pacman is acting more like a bandwagoned townie close to deadline.

Lynching pacman would be a mislynch, since I am not convinced pacman is scum at all. I am however rather sure that you are scum, so the chances of us mislynching would be smaller if we lynched you.

You are asking us to not only trust that you are town (in spite of the case against you) but to also trust that you are endowed with magical perceptions that have allowed you to make correct reads based on OMGUS and crap-logic. I don't believe either.

@ Sim & pacman: You've both stated suspicions of sirdan, please vote for him soon. We have four days left during which to prompt, receive, and analyze his claim. I doubt I am wrong about sirdan but it is possible. Just in case, I'd like to have time to seriously consider any claim he gives.

[Simenon]

@ Sim & pacman: You've both stated suspicions of sirdan, please vote for him soon. We have four days left during which to prompt, receive, and analyze his claim. I doubt I am wrong about sirdan but it is possible. Just in case, I'd like to have time to seriously consider any claim he gives.

What?

It's tied 4 and 4. Why exactly is it necessary I join your wagon right now? I am much more convinced of my own.

[Ythill]

I wouldn't say necessary, I was just asking.

You've said sirdan is your PE#2, so your vote is either in your #1 or #2. Whereas I don't see much of the case against pacman. But this comparison has to do with the

lynch

, I am asking for your

vote

.

You've said that you'd vote for sirdan at deadline. Would you rather have a claim from him first? Please consider voting sirdan soon. You can always switch back later if you want to.