Mini Number 2195 | Brutalism | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

Why are you trying to avoid all responsibilities?

And what does this even mean? What responsibilities? I’ve screwed up almost as much as everyone else here. What’s your point?

[Andresvmb]

Besides, what? Koba was NK’ed N1. And they had already slipped. What are you talking about?

Koba got a good long ways without slipping

So? They were still NK’ed N1. You would have discussed and decided that if Koba had a wrong player on their sights, the Scum could leverage that by executing there and leaving those bad crumbs behind. I still think Koba had some good insights I mean they were spot on about Lunar Martian / midwaybear. But yeah that could have been a play. I saw it last game I believe it was with Titus.

[Andresvmb]

The Scum definitely think about these things. It’s either closest to solving/PR/best player to help craft future pushes.

[Andresvmb]

VPB is the only candidate I see of "trapping andre into GC" since they were questioning him heavily. You were the fire starter for most of the day anyway I reckon, that's a pretty paranoid line of thought

Look if GC flips Town, yeah you bet your ass I’m going to be paranoid.

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not necessarily trapping me specifically. It’s whoever goes backs and takes a look at Koba’s views. It happened to be me but it could have been anybody.

[Andresvmb]

Of course Koba had good insights. Koba is Koba, but I don't understand where you are coming to the conclusion that scum expected you to follow Kobas back, and I don't like how you are using Kobas Kobas insights to avoid taking responsibility for anything.

You’re so obnoxious with this responsibility thing. I am taking responsibility for screwing up. But if we’re going to be in ELo, what does it matter really? We need to solve the game or lose. Do you want me to wallow in self-pity, or try and help out?

[Andresvmb]

The Scum definitely think about these things. It’s either closest to solving/PR/best player to help craft future pushes.

I thought about the RTP kill too because I was sure Datisi or VPB were dying. I also realized GC totally makes sense making that kill but Datisi does also because RTP/VPB were the towniest towns and they want VPB alive obviously.

Yeah and Datisi knows Koba’s style of play of course. It was indeed probably a fear kill. And they were becoming obvious Town. It is a shot I would have made too to be transparent.

[Andresvmb]

Maybe I would stop suspecting you when you stop responding to half my posts

You don’t read. I also said it didn’t have to be me.

[Andresvmb]

And I don’t know why I’m the one responsible for making you feel better about my slot. You want me to take responsibility for my mistakes - you’ll have to take responsibility for your bad tunnel after the game.

[Andresvmb]

I didn't even realize dkkoba was in this game at one point, or what slot they had. Or more likely I just forgot. They're not listed on the OP

They posted 15 times under their main account. You can easily spot that by looking at the activity overview. I seriously doubt this is genuine.

[Andresvmb]

where I voice my issues and ignore the second half which is, by all accounts, a reach out in the chance that I am wrong about you.

Because I had already addressed the second part. You’re just seeing what you want to see. You think I’m purposefully ignoring you when frankly I hate spending time having to defend myself. And unfortunately I have had to do it this game because obviously you and GC aren’t both Scum I don’t think. But you just insist and insist and it’s so exhausting.

[Andresvmb]

Andres obviously I'm not 100% here for this game. I talked to dkkoba, like, twice, and the game is 3000 posts long

Okay but then you did know they were in the game. So your prior statement is just blatant posturing.

[Andresvmb]

Andres obviously I'm not 100% here for this game. I talked to dkkoba, like, twice, and the game is 3000 posts long

+1

Why do you want me to take responsibility for my bad pushes, but then you refuse to take responsibility for not paying full attention to the game we’re all trying to win? Lack of effort is far less excusable than being wrong. Because that can be easily worked on.

[Andresvmb]

Not everything needs to be a conspiracy theory

Can you elaborate on how everything I’m posting is a conspiracy theory please?

[Andresvmb]

Not everything needs to be a conspiracy theory

Can you elaborate on how everything I’m posting is a conspiracy theory please?

You said the neighborizor was fake and the neighborhood was the whole scum team, didn't you? You did this both when datisi claimed neighborized and when momrongel claimed neighborized, and also criticized the choice of target

And you're jumping on me for this

That's what I meant

This was already sorted and worked through pages ago. You’re late.

[Andresvmb]

And if you had all these issues, isn’t it mighty interesting it’s coming out now?

[Andresvmb]

And you're jumping on me for this

Me suggesting that you could be Scum if GC flips Town has nothing to do with the GC claim. It’s the solve you put out. I’m not connecting the two thoughts your putting out here.

[Andresvmb]

your putting out here.

You’re*

[Andresvmb]

Where do you see me putting no effort at all in this game?

Where do you see me trying to not understand what's going on?

Where do you see me refusing to not come to conclusions based what i do have and using them to create more clarity in this game?

Have I said any of these things? I’ll wait. Have I said you’re not putting any effort at all? Or you’re not trying to understand the game? Or come to conclusions? Have I said any of these things?

[Andresvmb]

Why do you want me to take responsibility for my bad pushes, but then you refuse to take responsibility for not paying full attention to the game we’re all trying to win? Lack of effort is far less excusable than being wrong. Because that can be easily worked on.

Anybody can CLEARLY see that what I said there and what you’re accusing me of saying are very far apart.

[Andresvmb]

Again you’re just tunneled. I’m going to disengage.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t want to get lazy, but I will say that at the very least people can stop feeling paranoid about me. Unless you think I’ve been trying to bus my buddy since the end of D1 of course.

[Andresvmb]

I also do strongly think that Dunn is cleared, but it’s not like completely obvious.

[Andresvmb]

I think the last two Scum are in {RLotus, Momrangal, DGB}, and I have a strong preference for a RLotus execution today based on associatives alone. And the fact that RLotus tried to build a Town block with Scum and all of that.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t want to get lazy, but I will say that at the very least people can stop feeling paranoid about me. Unless you think I’ve been trying to bus my buddy since the end of D1 of course.

This makes me more paranoid than if you just didn't say it, fyi

Don’t care. If you want to game throw, by all means. You’ll have to explain it later, not me.

[Andresvmb]

Don’t care. If you want to game throw, by all means. You’ll have to explain it later, not me.

Relax. I already called you town bloc. So uptight!

I want to win! We have a good chance now that GC was executed and I don’t have to be paranoid about maxwell. And Voyeur? So they actually sat on Momrangal right? That’s crazy.

[Andresvmb]

The Scum were clearly afraid of a Tracker, and instead they flipped a Voyeur. Which frankly is a very weak role.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Momrangal

[Andresvmb]

I think this is the most likely slot to flip Scum out of everyone.

[Andresvmb]

I think this is the most likely slot to flip Scum out of everyone.

Why?

I can’t imagine a game without them as Scum. There is a limited set of universes where the Neighborhood really is all of the Scum, and Datisi bussed Green Crayons with RLotus defending there. At the end of the day I do have some scars from early D2 that do give me some doubts about Datisi. I still very much think RLotus is the more likely of the pair to contain Scum (and now I’m completely convinced that there’s 1 Scum there), and I have you and Dunn as basically ride or die at this point. Frankly I don’t think DGB flips Scum either.

Mom has been more aggressively wrong, and GC had a lapse there where once I had them as possible Town and stopped pushing them after their Claim, and I shifted my attention to Mom, instead of supporting it they threw a question to me about it.

[Andresvmb]

Some distancing has arguably taken place, and Mom had RLotus and Me as the two potential Scum. So most of the signs in my head all point to RLotus of course. But I don’t want to hard lock it yet.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, Datisi, VP townbloc for the win. Rest of y'all got some 'splaining to do.

Momrangal I'm not sure on since the "GC flips town" thing was such a wild thing to say yesterday she could be town.

I was first on GC so why should I 'splain anything?

This however isn’t true. I was first there. I Unvoted only to not give the advantage to GC in taking advantage of any Town slips. But you don’t get to take credit as the first on the wagon.

[Andresvmb]

Btw maxwell also basically had their sights on {RLotus, Mom} from what I recall, so I think I’m good with either, but just trying to make sure I’m not missing anything.

[Andresvmb]

Eh no you know what, no.

VOTE: RLotus

[Andresvmb]

I think this is fine. RLotus’ reaction to being paired with GC as Scum was very interesting when they still had them as Town. I’m okay with this.

[Andresvmb]

datisi
DBG
GC
Dunn
VPB

Max

Lotus
Andres

That's about where I'm standing.

In my mind Max, lotus, Andre's makes the most sense. Max's play is as I already described but the way they defend GC is pretty top tier scum play especially if they are shutting down a theory that scumbuddy Andre's is pushing.

DBG and Dunn are town through how they are both playing and I think going after either of them has a massive amount of scum motivation because at this stage scum need to keep their options open.

The field looks about 3:6 and I thought I saw someone saying that we lose if we miseliminate today and I'm not sure where that came from.

I think we should have everyone else out though just so that we have clarity on what's going on. I think most of what's left is VTs anyway

This is so aggressively bad. How is this Town? And with that midwaybear hammer, I really think there’s no way at this point Mom flips Town. But hey I could be wrong.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah no okay I do think we should flip Mom first.

VOTE: Momrangal

[Andresvmb]

Sorry for being spastic there.

[Andresvmb]

Basically, it is most likely Datisi/Dunn/DGB or GC/Dunn/DGB. Momrangal still needs to keep being evaluated of course, especially in a final 3 situation

This is the sort of weird solve that makes me thing RLotus is Scum. So regardless of whether they get their preferred execution in Datisi, or Green Crayons goes through, the rest of the Scum Team is DGB, Dunn either way? This is also in direct contradiction to Momrangal who refused to reevaluate DGB, and Dunn actually. See here:

And you're still ignoring the fact that my vote was in response to someone I was town reading


You're blowing my vote out of proportion. I feel like everything is being blown out of proportion when it comes to you.

You're a confident player, but you're also one who can admit when they are wrong. You can see two sides of every coin and I don't see an attempt to look at both sides to every slot you're looking at
It all feels black and white with you and I know for a fact that you are not a black and white player so what's going on?

Even in bears you were willing to talk to Norwee as if he had the potential to be town.

In bears you saw me lock-town DBG when everyone else was willing g to push it as scum.

I'm not going to reconsider my read on DBG or dunnstral this game so like, I don't know where else to look.

VPB doesn't make sense as scum with his overall play and everyone else makes no sense as scum with how they have all been approaching and playing the game so if you're town, tell me where I'm wrong because the game is going to be lost and I know you care about that enough to do an entire overhaul on the thread

[Andresvmb]

This is the sort of weird solve that makes me thing RLotus is Scum.

*makes me think

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Dunnstral

What. Explain.

[Andresvmb]

andres, where are you at on Datisi? You have to see he's town, right?

Alright so there’s not much sense in hiding this, but this is what my gut is telling me.

Yes, I think Datisi is Town. I thought Datisi was Town for the most part, despite them strongly trying to dissuade me against Green Crayons before and around their claim. To some extent I can understand how that is probably driven by the fact that they were Neighborized and thought they could get an inside view of the slot. There’s always a part of me that will remain skeptical of anyone who was wrong about Scum in some sort of important way, but I did feel that Datisi’s pushes have been genuine.

A part of me is just screaming flip RLotus and find out! Because if RLotus flips Scum, and there’s a tremendous amount that points to exactly that (and I don’t need to rehash it I don’t think), then Datisi is practically confirmed. There’s distancing, and there’s what they engaged in yesterday.

One of {Momrangal, DGB} I really do think is Scum. This push against Dunn from DGB makes no sense to me. Does anybody really think Green Crayons, as an alternative to a Town wagon D1 (to provide options), landed on a Partner and tunneled there? I just don’t see how that’s even remotely a reasonable conclusion coming into today.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Dunnstral

Personally I'm more interested in Dunnstral and whether he always is this lurky and fluffy.

I'm down to wagon GC.

Do you need something?

Why are you posting regularly in other games but not here?

Why did you ignore my request for some reads?

Because I didn't see it.

This game isn't interesting right now

Reads: Green Crayons, Reformed Toxic Player for town

Scumreads: Not really sure, Elements was/is being weird, Testarossa I understand little of what is going on in her head despite her posts and it feels like she's said less than she has

VOTE: Testarossa

am i being trolled?

talk to me about your vote on dunn?

palate cleanser. felt getting sucked into a duchess vortex and wanted to break my vote away to force my attention away.

Baltar had just mentioned something about Dunn acting like lurker scum from prior scum game, which is a good enough to vote for me rn bc 1. voting lurkers is good for the soul, 2. Baltar pings me town, 3. i assume the meta analysis isn't wrong otherwise Dunn would say so, and 4. it wasn't Duchess.

i've seen dunn lurk as either alignment, but he definitely hasn't impressed so far.

after being called out by Baltar, it was like pulling teeth to get him to engage and provide any sort of content. tbh not entirely sure which way that cuts in terms of alignment, setting aside whatever meta argument about Dunn and activity levels, but it certainly isn't pro-town even if it doesn't qualify as scum, so atm I'm happy to keep my vote here

I accept Dunn is lurker regardless of alignment, but rn I'm content with lurker votes. We've got time to whip up activity.

can i get shotgun reads from you next time you're here?

GC, who are your townreads outside of elements btw?

midway, andres, Baltar, RL. I think elements is on the town side of the ledger for reasons ID'd above. BM had a great entrance with burst of activity + bringing thegame back to life, which also suggests town.

Oh I forgot VD. I'm thinking town side of the ledger.


I'd be okay with eliminating Harumi/maxwell, RTP, Dunn.................. maybe duchess but i have been avoiding that read bc I was not having fun with this game when that was happening

VOTE: Dunn

Works for me.

I'm also happy with a maxwell vote, especially with the RTP town flip.

Looking forward to Cookie's thoughts to help me sort the slot divorced from my Duchess interactions.

Like I could keep going. How is this Scum interacting with a Partner? There’s NO way.

[Andresvmb]

Green Crayons clearly wanted Dunn executed. They definitely thought momentum could build there, and tried to rally players in this direction, and almost got their wish. How can anyone build an association or think to themselves oh GC flipped Scum? Yeah Dunn makes sense as an execution. Like, how?

[Andresvmb]

I think the Scum came out with a plan to stop pushing the obvious Town, and try to get us to split onto say a less obvious Town player. Because RLotus probably knows that they’re not winning a 1v1 with Datisi after the GC flip. Push came to shove, I would firmly expect RLotus to get executed there. So they probably have realized they need to build a case against a player with a smaller presence.

What DGB is doing is HORRIFIC in my eyes.

[Andresvmb]

I think Lotus, DBG, mom are town.

So you think GC is just going to town read all his pontential partners on his deathbed?

That’s all WIFOM and to be summarily ignored.

[Andresvmb]

The consistency of GC’s push against Dunn basically makes them really hard to execute in good faith. I will absolutely fight that execution to the death.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: RLotus

[Andresvmb]

Anyone who implied that GC was town by virtue of his role is suspect.

Anyone in the neighborhood who was not wary of GC is suspect.

This is more important.

VOTE: Dunnstral

And like HOW does one square these two thoughts?! Because I can’t.

[Andresvmb]

We’re not executing Dunn. Over my dead body. The more you argue for it, the more it convinces me you’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

If anybody that is Town in this game executes Dunn, I will tear them a new one in the post-game. That is like glass to be broken in case of emergency only. It’s where a bunch of players that lead nowhere decided to consolidate on. It’s one of the players Green Crayons most consistently pushed as Scum. They have for the most part refused to vote Town (midwaybear being the notable exception), and have consistently come out with good views actually. And the fact that they were wrong about midwaybear probably confirms that they’re not Informed. If they’re avoiding all of the Town executions for a lot of Town cred later, they probably avoid that one too.

I will seriously harshly judge anyone voting there as Town.

[Andresvmb]

Now, I am totally open to changing my mind if I’m in ELo and it’s like {Me, VPB, Dunn} or something crazy like that (which trust me, is not happening). But otherwise? Last place I’m interested in looking today.

[Andresvmb]

Who's eliminating dunnstral today?

Dunnstral was locktown even before GC flip

DGB is voting there right now.

[Andresvmb]

gg well played
town couldn't really get anything going this game

I wouldn’t say this. My conclusion from this game isn’t that the Town couldn’t get anything going. Executing Green Crayons is definitely

something

. My conclusion is that Town needed to more quickly realize that when the game was going wrong, and the leading voices were leading us there, that we needed to be more self-critical and re-evaluate and re-read more. I had a hard time trying to navigate that myself, and I think a lot of us needed to do more of that.

I also want to congratulate the Scum Team who played well. I wouldn’t blame the loss even mostly on imploding PRs (I wouldn’t call what happened with Italiano that), but just on better play by Scum and bad play by Town. I think the RLotus execution was just... bad. And I’m responsible for that in a big way.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, thanks Mod!

Also @Datisi really was like obvious Scum to me after the RLotus flip. A simple ISO of Datisi really revealed the level of sheer Scumminess and I waited too long to do it and I think those left there at the end should have at least taken a look.

[Andresvmb]

while giving scum an avenue of manipulation via the Neighborizer.

I knew it haha I definitely said as much.

[Andresvmb]

there was a reason why you were the only choice for the nightkill last night haha

I’m almost certain I would have come in, put you in the spotlight immediately, put my thoughts out there, and forced a 1v1. Like I had mapped it all out in my head after re-reading and really wanting to punch a wall after not pushing you harder. It was definitely annoying haha

[Andresvmb]

I even drafted a post which I put on the Dead PT before reading any spoilers if you want to look at it haha

[Andresvmb]

I will say - I wasn’t expecting the extent of the distancing. I always look for some. But I think that was masterfully done here and it’s a good lesson for future games.

[Andresvmb]

If no one can townread you, mafia becomes hell.

This btw is not true. I thought you were unlikely to flip Scum for most of the game, but I think you would have benefited from a bit more caution. I think your relatively quick hammer of RLotus made you Scummy in my head in a way that nothing else did. If you’re feeling disinterested, then maybe get some more real-time opinions at that stage no?

[Andresvmb]

i guess i deserved the loss due to pocketing after what i did to DGB in bending

Ugh I hate that it was obvious to me that pocketing was going on and I couldn’t sort out sooner that it was Datisi doing it and not VPB. Again, well done there.

[Andresvmb]

If no one can townread you, mafia becomes hell.

This btw is not true. I thought you were unlikely to flip Scum for most of the game, but I think you would have benefited from a bit more caution. I think your relatively quick hammer of RLotus made you Scummy in my head in a way that nothing else did. If you’re feeling disinterested, then maybe get some more real-time opinions at that stage no?

I didn't even realize it was the hammer.

Yeah that’s the point. You threw caution to the wind. And that didn’t help you in my mind. Because the Scum were playing somewhat aggressive. At least if you look at how GC and Datisi were playing, you seemed to fit well with that, and you should have tried to show your paranoia a little more. I think sometimes even admitting that you’re lost in a game is a useful device.

[Andresvmb]

Weird play, but I guess it worked out.

Fucking andres and the dunn hate! Even I talked myself out of it after awhile dammit.

I’m sorry! I’m annoyed about it myself.