Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[kuribo]

Also Id never expect Kuribo to attack so hard to sirdan. So Im really lost. I promise to come with a more serious opinion in a day...

You call that an attack?

I'll show you an attack tomorrow, scum.

attack ?
Im not attackin you. I didnt consider the person you replaced scummy and I dont consider you either. Your attack on sirdan was strong. And if you attack him so strongly and you are "defending" him before the claim, this suggests to me that his doctor claim was a fake. So in my process of thoughts:

1. I read sirdan's words protecting himself to future claims - scummy
2. I start to accept he has an emotional rush - town (and doc)
3. The attack of someone who defends him hits me in the other direction - scummy...

As a consequence, Im totally lost. This is what i said...

No, genius, I didn't say you were attacking me.

I said, if you call what I did to sirdan an attack, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[kuribo]

Also, nureins, why the hesitation in the unvote? You're still voting a claimed doctor. For shame.

[kuribo]

Yeah, after these last few pages, I find it less and less likely that Pacman is scum. I have some doubt about Sirdan, but he is low on my suspect list. ythill looks scummy too. But by far the scummiest, confirming all my earlier suspicions, is Darox.

Unvote
Vote: Darox

After his recent line of posting, I just can't believe he is town.

Do you seriously think you're going to swing one of these wagons completely off track and onto Darox in just three days?

[nureins]

Also, nureins, why the hesitation in the unvote? You're still voting a claimed doctor. For shame.

Mainly because I never faced such a situation. He might be claiming doctor to protect himself...I said "ready to unvote". After hearing some other opinions and especially after seeing none else counterclaims, Ill probably unvote. He is at L-3, do you really think my unvote some hours before or later is gonna affect the result ?

[Simenon]

I can't let this blatant role fishing slide. On the off chance that both are pro-town power roles, then that's two-for-one for scum. One would be sufficient, but two is just being greedy.

FoS - Simenon

uh

First of all, learn what role fishing is. Asking for a claim is not role fishing. Although I've had to make this argument twice in recent games, so perhaps the definition has changed.

Secondly, Ythill brought this up, and I responded. I do not think the two should claim together. My statement was badly written, but my point was that either of them should claim now.

[sirdanilot]

Nureins, you unvote a not counterclaimed power role.

FoS Nureins

[nureins]

Nureins, you unvote a not counterclaimed power role.

FoS Nureins

Why such a hurry ?

[Simenon]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

[nureins]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

With 12 players, I was assuming that this game most probably have (at least) one. But I take it. So Ill listen to most people and then if no clear conviction most probably ill unvote.

Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...

[kuribo]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

With 12 players, I was assuming that this game most probably have (at least) one. But I take it. So Ill listen to most people and then if no clear conviction most probably ill unvote.

Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...

Of course it would, pacman is your partner.

[kuribo]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

Sure they do, but:

A) in a closed setup, they run the risk that there IS a doctor

B) I know you didn't say we should lynch a claimed doctor, so don't read that into this statement, but: There's no point in lynching a claimed doc on day one unless there's a counter-claim. (which you well know) (I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)

[kuribo]

Nureins, you unvote a not counterclaimed power role.

FoS Nureins

way to repeat my argument against him.

(the post I've quoted you just now is pointless and doesn't help your cause one bit)

[kuribo]

Also, nureins, why the hesitation in the unvote? You're still voting a claimed doctor. For shame.

Mainly because I never faced such a situation. He might be claiming doctor to protect himself...I said "ready to unvote". After hearing some other opinions and especially after seeing none else counterclaims, Ill probably unvote. He is at L-3, do you really think my unvote some hours before or later is gonna affect the result ?

Yes. Because we have 3 days to come to a consensus and it doesn't look like sirdan should be the play.

[Simenon]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

Sure they do, but:

A) in a closed setup, they run the risk that there IS a doctor

Fake claiming Doctor gives you two advantages
1. If there is no other doctor, you get to fakeclaim a valuable but unprovable role. That is an ideal situation for a scum.
2. If there is a doctor, that doctor dies the next night, barring roleblocking.

B) I know you didn't say we should lynch a claimed doctor, so don't read that into this statement, but: There's no point in lynching a claimed doc on day one unless there's a counter-claim. (which you well know) (I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)

It's certainly better than nothing. But we shouldn't put as much value on it as we would any other power role, for the reasons above.

[kuribo]

So the question from here, becomes: Is sirdan scummy enough to lynch a claimed doctor?

If the mafia has a roleblocker, and he's a doc, he essentially becomes a townie, because he has no night power. If they don't, then he'll likely be the NK. The problem lies in that we give them a free kill if he's telling the truth: The lynch of one townie (him, the useless doc) and whoever they kill tonight.

From there, the question leads to, "Is sirdan the only viable candidate for a lynch?" And, at least to me, the answer is, "No."

[kuribo]

Plenty of scum fake claim doctor in games that don't happen to have doctors.

Just saying.

Sure they do, but:

A) in a closed setup, they run the risk that there IS a doctor

Fake claiming Doctor gives you two advantages
1. If there is no other doctor, you get to fakeclaim a valuable but unprovable role. That is an ideal situation for a scum.
2. If there is a doctor, that doctor dies the next night, barring roleblocking.

B) I know you didn't say we should lynch a claimed doctor, so don't read that into this statement, but: There's no point in lynching a claimed doc on day one unless there's a counter-claim. (which you well know) (I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)

It's certainly better than nothing. But we shouldn't put as much value on it as we would any other power role, for the reasons above.

And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out. Agree? Disagree?

[nureins]

(I'm putting this statement here more for nureins who hasn't unvoted)

Have you noticed that only 3 ppl have talked after the claim ? Why are you SO SURE that no counter claim will happen ? I am not, so I wait...

About my partner, I thought it was Cass. Ah, Cass also unvoted Pacman, I know your next stupid argument...

I am not gonna unvote when YOU want, but when I consider adequate. I do not like to be manipulated by other players, as I do not know who is town/scum...

[Simenon]

And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out.

Agreed.

[kuribo]

About my partner, I thought it was Cass. Ah, Cass also unvoted Pacman, I know your next stupid argument...

Where did I say that? Or did you see that in your role PM?

[nureins]

And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out. Agree? Disagree?

haha, really ? so,

1. You think a FOS on me is justified because I didnt IMMEDIATELY unvoted a non counterclaimed doc.

2. You want no counterclaim to appear.

How can be a doc claim counterclaimed if you cheer up the counterclaimer not to counterclaim...I am laughing a lot now...do u want me to believe there is an urgency in your desires to unvote sirdan and suggest no counterclaim to be done ?

Im not understanding you at all, but all this sounds suspicious to me.

I mantain my view. Ill listen opinions and in one day or so if no counterclaim Ill probably unvote and vote darox (and in case a vote is needed to avoid a no-lynch, ill vote pacman)

[nureins]

About my partner, I thought it was Cass. Ah, Cass also unvoted Pacman, I know your next stupid argument...

Where did I say that? Or did you see that in your role PM?

you havent said it. it is the main argument of our friend matin/karne/Darox, to whom cass has voted some time ago and you openly criticized in post 877
For you to remember, most people unvoted matin/Karne/Darox to join sirdan or pacman wagons as a compromise, and it seems they just consider him very suspicious...

[kuribo]

Just because I think you're scum doesn't mean I agree with what others have said about Cass being your scum partner. (Although I have expressed concern over some of her actions)

[kuribo]

And personally, I think if the doctor ISN'T sirdan, and we DO have one, he should keep his mouth shut while the situation sorts out. Agree? Disagree?

haha, really ? so,

1. You think a FOS on me is justified because I didnt IMMEDIATELY unvoted a non counterclaimed doc.

2. You want no counterclaim to appear.

How can be a doc claim counterclaimed if you cheer up the counterclaimer not to counterclaim...I am laughing a lot now...do u want me to believe there is an urgency in your desires to unvote sirdan and suggest no counterclaim to be done ?

Im not understanding you at all, but all this sounds suspicious to me.

I mantain my view. Ill listen opinions and in one day or so if no counterclaim Ill probably unvote and vote darox (and in case a vote is needed to avoid a no-lynch, ill vote pacman)

Where did I justify the FOS? In fact, if I recall, I called the entire post that contained it "Pointless."

What I SAID was that there is no point in you continuing to vote for sirdan, since his lynch at this time will accomplish absolutely nothing for the time being.

Also, you're actively trying to shift focus onto Darox with a deadline three days away: knowing full well that 3 days is hardly any time at all for a brand new bandwagon to pick up.

[nureins]

What I SAID was that there is no point in you continuing to vote for sirdan, since his lynch at this time will accomplish absolutely nothing for the time being.

You are right in a part. You said that mail was pointless. I interpreted your words "way to repeat my argument against him" as an acceptance of his words...

You are also right in saying that unless we fully believe he is scum, we shouldnt lynch him. But I again tell you to look at my words. I am planning to unvote him unless some counterclaim happens...

Also, you're actively trying to shift focus onto Darox with a deadline three days away: knowing full well that 3 days is hardly any time at all for a brand new bandwagon to pick up.

Id vote simenon (though now he is more or less at darox level), but nonsense. Darox was my third chance, and Ill vote him. Im not trying to shift focus onto anything. I find Darox more suspicious than pacman. Then I vote for darox. If risk of no-lynch, I vote pacman...

I repeat, do not tell me what to vote. My position has been very clear all along the game...

[nureins]

And now, I stop bickering. Come back in day 2 to attack me as much as you want.