Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[RationalMadman]

Subject: Forum Rules and Guidelines

[*]Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises,

"trust tells"

, alliances, etc. Using

knowledge

from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

I didn't use a grudge to influence. I justified saying I'm not fucking Radition. As for you bringing up a grudge with Bingle very early on, it's hypocritical to even mention. VFP and myself led Town and won the game together but VFP rederred to me as Radition constantly throughout. It was about time I corrected the error.

@VFP - Can you give a quick summary of pre-game talk from lovers topic and what happened since then in it? Seems like shift have happened and want to confirm.

VFP is an observant player based on what I think of them in a previous game. There is no way Scum VFP didn't read Tbone and Klick describing the Lover PT already, false or not.

VFP please explain your read on Kerset and also what precisely in the vanillas is your read's reasoning? What's your read on Bambi? Your unvote on Bambi is solely due to Tbone saying he townreads her? Correct or incorrect?

Tbone and VFP are scum pair I am quite sure now.

Simply put until now, I had zero read on Klick overall. Now I am getting a scumread on VFP.

VFP answering your question isn't a reaction to you asking, not at all same dynamic.

I wasn't ignorant of Scum having daytalk. I never said I didn't know or think that. However, the reply VFP gave was attainable with just reading what Klick and Tbone wrote in thus public thread and insinuating that VFP read it without knowing much about it. It doesn't require VFP to use daytalk and ask Tbone for help to know what to say because nothing about the reply implied that happened, if it had been more detailed that may imply it especially with a larger timegap. I believe VFP based the reply on what Klick and Tbone said earlier and still scumread VFP and Tbone.

In these quotes I never once say that it is solely because VFP didn't read it that I think VFP is scum. I mention it and see if they will react.

In fact, this is the page prior where I begin to truly state I explicitly scumread VFP:
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=86578&start=775

This page is filled with an arbitrary assumption from VFP that if Vex had read the game, Vex should not have been still voting Bingle because voting Kerset gets a faster outcome (without considering that Vex changed their mind and was less sure Bingle's pair were scum).

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

[RationalMadman]

I have now quoted myself, I will like VFP to prove that the sole reason I scumread VFP is not reading an alternate win-con. I also want to see where I invented meta, as opposed to making a valid observation and asking VFP to justify not reading or to react to me saying it, why didn't VFP ever react until now when voting Ana and saying they scumread me?

[yessiree]

VC 1.27

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Anastasia (3)

- LlamaFluff, VFP, T-Bone

T-Bone (2)

- Bingle, RationalMadman

Kerset (1)

- Bambi Jay

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting - Anastasia

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

[RationalMadman]

Scum pair is VFP and Tbone, Goon in vanillas is Llama or Bambi, I am quite sure of this, if Ana and myself are voted today, sheep these reads, it results in Town-win.

S_S being scumread by VFP is 0% a factor in these reads, if anything that would make me feel artificial distancing is occuring, this is based largely on Vex earlier on and the vibe I got.

I have said absolutely everything possible in my defence, I do not know what more is wanted from me and welcome anyone else to question me.

[T-Bone]

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

Yeah, why would town-confirmed lovers players trust one another? Must be scum, there's no other logical explanation. You got us.

[RationalMadman]

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

Yeah, why would town-confirmed lovers players trust one another? Must be scum, there's no other logical explanation. You got us.

Yes, why at all? You or your lover's ability to read (if you are town) is 0% relevant to your own ability to read. You should never let your lover's incompetence hold you back as an individual. If Ana reads incorrectly, I will fight her. If I disagree with Ana here or Bingle last game, I am 0% cowering to them. Will I enjoy us voting together? Yes, of course. Only if I agree to their read's reasoning, not as an instinctive reaction.

[T-Bone]

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

Yeah, why would town-confirmed lovers players trust one another? Must be scum, there's no other logical explanation. You got us.

Yes, why at all? You or your lover's ability to read (if you are town) is 0% relevant to your own ability to read. You should never let your lover's incompetence hold you back as an individual. If Ana reads incorrectly, I will fight her. If I disagree with Ana here or Bingle last game, I am 0% cowering to them. Will I enjoy us voting together? Yes, of course. Only if I agree to their read's reasoning, not as an instinctive reaction.

Well lucky for me, I trust VFP way more than I trust you and VFP probably feels the same way.

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum.

I think RM is just upset because now VFP is voting for his pair, and he's creating revisionist history in order to justify his position and defend himself. No one else batted an eye over this sequence, not even Kerset/Bingle. I feel like that A) I was very wrong but also B) gives us a little insight into their alignments. Bingle/Kerset to my knoweldge, and maybe I missed it, haven't even questioned that lovers would be on the same page. Ya'll are making me almost town case them now...but I've always given Bingle credit for defending Kerset...and watching RM get upset that VFP and I will just trust each other is just illuminating. We haven't seen that out of Kerset/Bingle at all. Even in all my discussions with Bingle, and I hope I'm not putting words in their mouth, I never got the impression that they ever had a problem with Klick/myself being together.

[RationalMadman]

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum

Kerset isn't VFP's partner and I still read Bambi as your Goon so really I didn't care, you're correct. I wanted to see if VFP would unvote Bambi the first chance they got and they did.

[RationalMadman]

Furthermore, instead of voting Vex, VFP now later decided that Vex being scum means Ana and me must be yet VFP was happy to vote Kerset based on no reasoning at all until that point of mind-changing, in that case. Why was VFP blindly voting Kerset? Just because Tbone states that he scumread Kerset? That's all?

Yeah, why would town-confirmed lovers players trust one another? Must be scum, there's no other logical explanation. You got us.

Yes, why at all? You or your lover's ability to read (if you are town) is 0% relevant to your own ability to read. You should never let your lover's incompetence hold you back as an individual. If Ana reads incorrectly, I will fight her. If I disagree with Ana here or Bingle last game, I am 0% cowering to them. Will I enjoy us voting together? Yes, of course. Only if I agree to their read's reasoning, not as an instinctive reaction.

Well lucky for me, I trust VFP way more than I trust you and VFP probably feels the same way.

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum.

I think RM is just upset because now VFP is voting for his pair, and he's creating revisionist history in order to justify his position and defend himself. No one else batted an eye over this sequence, not even Kerset/Bingle. I feel like that A) I was very wrong but also B) gives us a little insight into their alignments. Bingle/Kerset to my knoweldge, and maybe I missed it, haven't even questioned that lovers would be on the same page. Ya'll are making me almost town case them now...but I've always given Bingle credit for defending Kerset...and watching RM get upset that VFP and I will just trust each other is just illuminating. We haven't seen that out of Kerset/Bingle at all. Even in all my discussions with Bingle, and I hope I'm not putting words in their mouth, I never got the impression that they ever had a problem with Klick/myself being together.

I think you don't understand the word 'trust'. I don't trust Ana is Town I KNOW she is Town not gamble or trust required. 'Trust' as you use oteans blindly assuming Ana's reads are all correct by default kust because I know she's Town. That's absurd to the highest degree.

[Bambi Jay]

I saw a marathon of words and I've been gone but from the bit i saw I guess we've been pushing Ration and Ana. It still falls in line with Tbone and VFP being my lockdown pick so there's that.

Only got 1 favor really. I'll obviously vote Ana if y'all don't wanna go along with it but I wanna elim Ration on principal instead and not just getting him on a technicality. It's the same result but voting Ration feels better.

VOTE: Ration

Will probably reread the last 2 pages but frankly nothing on there changed my views at all. I got Smart as the goon from the VTs becuz of Vex, and with Tbone and VFP as town the other 2 are expendable and I think they can convince the other VT (probs Llama) they are the town pair if we're put in Lim or Lose.

[Something_Smart]

Why do I feel like I'm so out of touch with the game that I would just be wasting my time actually engaging people about reads

[T-Bone]

I saw a marathon of words and I've been gone but from the bit i saw I guess we've been pushing Ration and Ana. It still falls in line with Tbone and VFP being my lockdown pick so there's that.

Only got 1 favor really. I'll obviously vote Ana if y'all don't wanna go along with it but I wanna elim Ration on principal instead and not just getting him on a technicality. It's the same result but voting Ration feels better.

VOTE: Ration

Will probably reread the last 2 pages but frankly nothing on there changed my views at all. I got Smart as the goon from the VTs becuz of Vex, and with Tbone and VFP as town the other 2 are expendable and I think they can convince the other VT (probs Llama) they are the town pair if we're put in Lim or Lose.

Yeah vote Ana, would just be easier than making the symbolic switch to RM (the thought had crossed my mind tbh)

[T-Bone]

You had no problem with Kerset telling VFP to vote Bambi and VFP complying though. I don't remember you getting upset about that and calling Kerset scum

Kerset isn't VFP's partner and I still read Bambi as your Goon so really I didn't care, you're correct. I wanted to see if VFP would unvote Bambi the first chance they got and they did.

Hypocrisy to get what you want instead of sincerity. Thank you for being upfront.

[Anastasia]

I'm fine with being eliminated here as long as I have assurances from the others in this game that T-bone and VFP follow us out 100% of the time. I will have many words for the townside post-game if somehow Kerset/Bingle get eliminated after us.

I don't share RM's conviction that Bambi is the goon. I still believe Llama is more likely as the Goon.

I trust Kerset/Bingle to make the right reads on the VT side.

[Anastasia]

VOTE: T-Bone

[Anastasia]

I should amend that.

Do not let Llama be the last VT standing. He is ridiculously good at looking townie when he's actually scum.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm fine with being eliminated here as long as I have assurances from the others in this game that T-bone and VFP follow us out 100% of the time. I will have many words for the townside post-game if somehow Kerset/Bingle get eliminated after us.

I don't share RM's conviction that Bambi is the goon. I still believe Llama is more likely as the Goon.

I trust Kerset/Bingle to make the right reads on the VT side.

Just out of curiosity... explain what you see my motivations from when you knew I was scum this game to now. Do you think that if you are town here I just decide not to bus whoever is scum and in your mind go for a D2 win when I showed pretty much no willingness to do that last game? Again you saw me as scum for about 48 hours and a dozen pages. You are that sure you can read me when never seeing me as town before? Most "good" (and im probably not that much of that category anymore) players tend to read fairly similar regardless of alignment.

Also just because boy why not try and talk about optimal scum play... optimal play for scum if the lover pairs is first targeted is not to try and protect/bus their buddies but to make sure that the pair who is most convinced of them being town lives. Because thats how they win unless town "obv town" lover pair is scum. Its why this setup is inherently flawed as there should be little to no interactions between Lovers-Solo slots that means anything unless you correctly read what scum is going for.

[Anastasia]

I don't see why you feel the need to interact with me if town!you believes I'm scum and will flip red and yourself to be proven right.

My words might as well mean nothing to you - the fanciful wind.

[Bambi Jay]

Tbone literally has list mod powers and can change his vote with 1 press of an edit button or just a revote but just says 'nah too lazy'.

Respect. But I do request the mod say we eliminated Ration instead.

VOTE: Ana

Anyway did I miss anything important otherwise cuz I'm at work and I only skimmed the last 3 pages

[LlamaFluff]

I don't see why you feel the need to interact with me if town!you believes I'm scum and will flip red and yourself to be proven right.

My words might as well mean nothing to you - the fanciful wind.

I guess more than the fact that if I am wrong it increases chance of town losing with you acting like that?

This does I guess back up the fact that you are probably scum because you wont actually explain your read here. Im thinking its because there is no basis to it, but why would town!you bother justifying a meta read or any motivations when asked when you flipping red basically confirms me as town as wins us the game.

Its actually a little funny. Last game RM was town and was going to get killed for being obtuse. This time he is scum but going to get killed because his partner is obtuse.

[Anastasia]

It's fine I don't mind being the one on the vote count.

After I flip green please listen to me and eliminate T-bone/VFP - they will flip red.

the other scum is probably just Llama here but if I'm wrong on him I guess you can listen to RM and flip Bambi.

You can blame the game loss 100% on me if I am wrong but I am not wrong here.

[Anastasia]

Its actually a little funny. Last game RM was town and was going to get killed for being obtuse. This time he is scum but going to get killed because his partner is obtuse.

That's funny because I'm much sharper when I'm actually scum.

When I'm town I tend to care less about winning the argument.

[Bingle]

VC 1.24

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Anastasia (4)

- LlamaFluff, VFP, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (3)

- Bingle, RationalMadman, Anastasia

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Something_Smart

Note Voting -

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-25 22:00:00)

Current VC.

SS, are you saying that you read me and TBone's ISOs and don't have any thoughts as to who is scummy because of them?

[LlamaFluff]

Its actually a little funny. Last game RM was town and was going to get killed for being obtuse. This time he is scum but going to get killed because his partner is obtuse.

That's funny because I'm much sharper when I'm actually scum.

When I'm town I tend to care less about winning the argument.

So you play anti-town as town? Also so SS is town because... OMGUS?

Also theoretically thats already a hammer.

[Bambi Jay]

I'm gonna get post 1000 woop woop.