Mini 666 - This Could Be Mafia - MOD ABANDONED

[TonyMontana]

You know, this just might be a brilliant play... -.-

Negative vote: Myself
Positive vote Muerrto

[fuzzylightning]

This has possibilities

positive unvote tajo
positive vote: muerrto

[ShadowGirl]

I'm a little suspicious of how quick Tony was to back up on it, but...

Anyway, having another win condition different then ours doesn't mean he's necessarily scum...? Though I don't know what roles that would benificial to town that don't have the same condition as 'us'. [Townies.]

Positive vote: Muerrto

[Muerrto]

I just got 4 votes because Tajo claimed to have a specific PM?

I claimed the same thing and knew which line he was referencing so I was merely guessing because that's not my win condition?

Can you guys re-read the last 4 pages and pay attention a bit more?

This is insane.

[Battousai]

I agree with Muerrto. This whole wagon is asinine, IMO. Tajo claims, and says his win condition (if tajo IS protown, and Tony IS scum, tony now knows the town win condition. He can now lie and say that is why he unvoted). Shadowgirl later claims that is also her win condition (if shadowgirl IS scum, then she could have just lied to appear protown). Right now I see no reason why claiming that as a win condition is the basis for innocence.

The case Tajo invented against Muerrto was that he has a different win condition, which he interpreted from this post:

Well, I guess the fact that a line from his claim was identical (As in word for word) to my own town role was what I took notice of first. It's somewhat of a common phrase for pro-town role PMs, and I'm unsure of if you could assume it's being used, judging from what you get as a scum.

All threats to the town eliminated? That's kind of standard in most mafia games.

Tajo then ignores Muerrto's question regarding this quote and just trudges along with this idea. I'm more certain than before of Tajo's guilt, which would mean, IMO, Muerrto is town thus

Negative Vote: Muerrto

.

[populartajo]

Batto, if you're SO convinced Muerrto is town, dont yout hink you should also suspect the people jumping in the wagon? Just saying...
You're lying in that post.
I have a case against Muerrto. (read my previous posts for reference) I dont think he's scum just for that win condition debate. Some people apparently do but you fail to realize that.
And I feel like Im repeating myself.
If Tony were scum he wouldnt have said that or would have unvoted me. Its stupid. Why would he want to link himself with the most suspected player : me, risking a possible lynch and even his?
And while I have doubts about Shadowgirl, I think that knowing her style, its a safe bet to assume she also has that win condition.
Yes, they could lie. But its a STUPID lie and is not motivated for scum motives : lynching me.
Dont you KNOW to analyse people's reactions?

[populartajo]

Also, as much as I like this Muerrto wagon, I hate the reasoning "yes, this has possibilities"
Are you people voting him for just the "win condition" situation or beacuse do you really think he's scum?

[fuzzylightning]

Honestly, I know this is going to look really scummy, but I know that I am not scum so I am going to act on my gut, I really don't think that Muerrto is scum, I was letting myself be influenced by what was going on around me.

unvote

[skitzer]

A prod zooms towards Grimmy from high in the sky...and hits a rock hard cloud.

Vote Count Equations At the Moment:

populartajo = +nhat+Erg0+Battousai = 3
Muerrto = +Falcone+Muerrto+ShadowGirl-Battousai = 2
Grimmy = +Vivian Darkblaam+Voodo-Grimmy = 1
Erg0 = +populartajo = 1
Falcone = +Erg0 = 1
Vivian Darkblaam = = 0
Voodo = = 0
Battousai = = 0
fuzzylightning = = 0
ShadowGirl = = 0
nhat = = 0
TonyMontana = -TonyMontana = -1
Jimmybot = -Vivian Darkblaam-Erg0-ShadowGirl = -3

Not Voting = -Falcone-fuzzylightning+Grimmy-Muerrto-populartajo-Voodo-nhat+fuzzylightning = -4

FoS Count:

Falcone has pointed two fingers of suspicion at TonyMontana!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at Timeater!
Voodo has pointed a finger of suspicion at Grimmy!
Falcone has pointed a finger of suspicion at Battousai!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at TonyMontana!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at Voodo!
Falcone has pointed a finger of suspicion at populartajo!

Note: The win condition may not be the same for all playerfs.

[fuzzylightning]

Another reason for my unvote, is because tajo, you make this case against Muerrto but you don't move your vote over, which leads me to believe that you don't feel as strongly about your case, so why should I move my vote to someone else based on your case, rather than my own thinking, and since you haven't defended yourself against much of anything that I have said, my vote goes to you, where it never should have left.

vote: tajo

[populartajo]

And why did you vote for Muerrto?
I already said that I will answer everyhting in the weekend. Dont you read?
And since when not voting for your top suspect is a scumtell?

[ShadowGirl]

Positive unvote.

Just realized how utterly stupid and impulsive that vote was.

[nhat]

prod

I'll be busy this weekend, so I'll have a look again and hopefully have something on monday.

[Falcone]

I already said that I will answer everyhting in the weekend. Dont you read?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

And since when not voting for your top suspect is a scumtell?

It's a pretty good scumtell in my experience, except in special circumstances.


I'm actually at a loss for what to do now. Populartajo's claim does indeed contain a line that's also in my role pm (literally exactly the same). I didn't realize this until TonyMontana said that was the reason for his unvote. A sample townie role pm was not included in the Mod's opening posts. I think it's pretty cheesy to try to confirm someone's innocence or guilt based on something like that, so I PM'ed the Mod to ask for his opinion on the matter. He basically said that since populartajo didn't quote his full role PM, there was no problem. Then there came the little rider attached to the Vote Counts saying that all protown win conditions are not necessarily the same.

The question is therefore whether scum have access to the townie win condition (or rather, some of the townies' win condition). If they don't, populartajo cannot be scum, since it would be too big a coincidence for him to make up the exact same sentence as is in my PM. By the same logic, TonyMontana is almost certainly protown in that case (or he would have made a truly brilliant and extremely opportunistic scum play). If scum do have access to the townie win condition, all bets are off. I just feel that if the Mod would have intended to do that (which by itself is a good thing, just to prevent things like the current mess from happening), he would have put the townie PM in the rules, as a lot of Mods do. That way, any discussion such as this is made pointless, as the town knows it can never catch scum this way. By (hypothetically) privately giving the scum the townie win condition (or some of the townies' win condition), the Mod would actually encourage such discussion, since the town would think they could possibly catch scum this way, while the scum know they can't.

It all boils down to outguessing the Mod, I realize that. But for now, I'm going by the assumption that skitzer is a good Mod and that populartajo and TonyMontana are probably protown.


Also, why is Muerrto self-voting?

[ShadowGirl]

If the townie pm isn't in the rules, I don't believe standard for the scum to be aware of what their condition is? On the other hand, if tajo is scum he could just inverse whatever his win condition is to make it look like he's town. Still, it seems like a bit too risky to do if he's lying.

[populartajo]

Whats pot kettle black?
Finally, some decent reasoning.
Falcone and Shadowgirl, if Tajo and Tony are prob town then who do you suspect? The people who jumped against him?
Muerrto agreed with me all the game. Then he suddenly turned against me for reasons I still dont understand. When did I link him with Ergo? (BTW, where's this guy?)
Fuzzylightning went to be really sure about me being scum then supported the Muerrto wagon in its climax with "it has possibilities" and then came back to me with such easiness.
My reread later will prob reveal more things. Stay tuned.

[TonyMontana]

On the other hand, if tajo is scum he could just inverse whatever his win condition is to make it look like he's town. Still, it seems like a bit too risky to do if he's lying.

Well, that was what i was wondering about earlier. (if a scum could predict the town win condition from the scum condition) And I did alittle research.
First of all, it was ridiculously hard to find games in this forum with that win condition. Secondly, in the few games I found, there was no consistancy in scum vs town win condition.

So I have little doubt about tajo's claim, and I don't think anyone else with the win condition should have either.

Of course any claim to have the same win condition after I pointed it out is about as valid as saying "I am town".
Muerrto would have us believe that him questioning me of the win condition was the line I meant, is indication that he also has the condition. Which of course is at best indication of nothing. In fact, the way he asked it kinda indicated he wasn't aware of the full extent of right sentence (you with the condition know what I'm talking about) I dunno, my gut is just telling me that the way he responded to it doesn't quite sit right.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Sorry I've been away for so long (busy!)

I should have some time to read and post tomorrow.

[nhat]

Sorry to say guys, I won't be continuing and have asked the mod for replacement.

Best of luck!

[ShadowGirl]

Been busy over the weekend - going to do a small reread.

[fuzzylightning]

Sorry, had no access yesterday, will reread and post later.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Hmmm

I'm going to agree with Falcone and TM here regarding Tajo's claim. Unless the scum were provided the townie win condition in their PMs (a possibility, considering that scum are often given fakeclaims in themed games), the accuracy of his stated condition is difficult to dismiss. That does not, however, mean that Muerrto is scum because he missed it initially (or that TM is town because he confirmed it). I don't think anybody else really took notice of the accuracy of Tajo's claim before TM pointed it out, but that doesn' t mean that in the hypothetical situation where TM is scum and Tajo is town, TM couldn't use is status as the informed minority to back a claim from somebody

he

knows to be town.

@Tajo: What's the flavor of your role?

[ShadowGirl]

Done a reread and the only person that really stands out to me is Tony:

This doesnt make sense becuase a)if there's buddying then both have to be scum not just one and b)it was so fucking early to tell who is scum and who isnt with that degree of certainty.......

a) scum buddy up to townsfolk.

If we are lynching people primarily for information, I find your lynch very educational, Tajo.

unvote both
positive vote:populartajo

And what specific information would we be gaining? I don't care if this situation is long gone, I'd like to hear what your thoughts were on it since you didn't divulge them.

Meanwhile, TonyMontana is looking odd. Votes tajo for trying to buddy up with someone, then he abruptly unvotes. I think he's got some splainin to do.

The buddy comment was not related to the vote. And I unvoted because I believe Tajo's claim.

You should at least explain your unvote and instead of just saying unvote. :/

Mod, can we have a prod on Voodoo?

[Erg0]

Unpositivevote: populartajo

I'm not on board with lynching a claimed investigator at this point. Belief isn't so much a part of this equation as risk/reward.

tajo: With regard to me not caring about Tony's post: it was only a lynch -3 vote, I didn't attach immediate significance to it. It's been made more significant by the fact that you opted to claim at that point. Do you really think that half of the 4 votes on your wagon were scum, though?

Isn't quoting

from

your PM (as opposed to quoting the whole thing) normally a modkillable offence? By the same token, would skitzer leave us with such an easy means of confirming alignment? Posting the town win condition up front is pretty standard practice these days, so why is it missing here?

It all boils down to outguessing the Mod, I realize that. But for now, I'm going by the assumption that skitzer is a good Mod and that populartajo and TonyMontana are probably protown.

I kind of see this the other way around. A good mod would not allow players to quote from their PMs to confirm themselves as town.

That ligtning Muerrto wagon was... weird.

Yes, they could lie. But its a STUPID lie and is not motivated for scum motives : lynching me.
Dont you KNOW to analyse people's reactions?

I would have thought that scum motives were simply to lynch somebody other than themselves. Pretending to have the town win condition in your PM would certainly achieve that aim.

It seems strange to me that it took until Vivian's 296 above for somebody to ask for tajo's flavour.

[populartajo]

Bad news guy. We had a conference at work Saturday's night and a barbecue in Sunday's and I got stupidly drunk and the post answering all questions will have to wait until I find some peace in my head.
If you really want to help me could you ask again all the exact questions you want answered or at least bring the number of the post you want me to look again.
For now there was no flavour attached to my role. If you want my flavour name its Disturbia.
I suggest for now looking for Muerrto's and FuzzyLightnin's posts. There's something bizarre going on in that wagon.