Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[kuribo]

Look, Kuribo, I can still not see what Darox did to convince anyone he was town. He was not so much a lurker as a village idiot - and he wasn't even trying. He definitely wasn't lynched for being 'aggressive', that was his own emotional outburst which seemed pretty disconnected to reality to me... I'm also pretty sure that Jahudo & me are both town, and that the wagon wasn't (strongly) scum-driven. I agree with the earlier poster who thinks that scum jumped on last minute (or perhaps not at all?).

This makes me on the one hand more convinced that Sirdan is town (with al the people pushing the false dilemma), but on the other hand the fact that he survived as a claimed doc is very suspicious. I definitely agree that a real doc should not counterclaim.

No, you're right, he wasn't lynched for being aggressive, he was lynched because the town took their eyes off the prize while scum took the focus off one of their own.

It was never about what Darox did to convince people he was town--- it was that pacman was always the better lynch. Given that pacman turned out to be newb scum as I said, I think it's worth going back and reading his interactions with others, since newb scum are often clumsy in their interactions.

[kuribo]

and that the wagon wasn't (strongly) scum-driven. I agree with the earlier poster who thinks that scum jumped on last minute (or perhaps not at all?).

Also, that is completely ridiculous--- to say that the wagon wasn't influenced by scum when we almost had enough votes to lynch one of them--- and then lynched someone else? What exactly is it that you think scum do? How do you think they avoid getting themselves / their partners lynched?


I'll give you a hint


IT INVOLVES DISTRACTING THE TOWN.

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo: Why is the case that Darox was your top scum before and you stayed out of the voting group ?

Back when Darox was at L-1, Ythill was volunteering to hammer and I was hoping to debate pacman up until the deadline.

That bandwagon following habit's appeal to emotion in 306 should be informative. nhat, Sim, then Andy (kuribo) votes, Cass fos, I vote, then Goat and Ythill act as voices of reason to stop the bandwagon. I think nureins was trying to stay neutral there for a time, not exactly sure. Anyway, if habit was in danger of a lynch back then, maybe Goat and/or Ythill are scum and were trying to distract.

Doctor Sirdan: who did you protect last night?

[kuribo]

I agree that Ythill deserves some of the attention, since he was also instrumental in helping to derail the pacman wagon the second time around by repeatedly defending him. I also didn't like that the hammer came after I had asked Darox a question that I wanted him to answer so as to help me clear things up on Day 2.

However, based on my experience with Ythill-as-scum, he's not as blatant as he has been here.

[Simenon]

I may have a reason as to why there was no scum kill.

Anyway, this looks bad for Ythill, sirdan, and Goat's replacement, I think. Hopefully more later.

[Simenon]

By the way, it seems fairly obvious to me that nuriens is reacting this way because he wants to avoid kuribo's vindication in any way possible.

[kuribo]

I still don't like the cop-out argument that Darox did nothing to establish himself as town.


NEITHER DID PACMAN.

[Simenon]

I still don't like the cop-out argument that Darox did nothing to establish himself as town.


NEITHER DID PACMAN.

Yeah. It's an excuse that allows lazy scumhunters and scum to be torpid rather than actually looking for something scummy.

[kuribo]

I still don't like the cop-out argument that Darox did nothing to establish himself as town.


NEITHER DID PACMAN.

Yeah. It's an excuse that allows lazy scumhunters and scum to be torpid rather than actually looking for something scummy.

Or ignore actual scummy behavior.

[sirdanilot]

note to mod: Today was marathon day so I didn't have time to post here, and I'll probably be busy tomorrow as well, sorry for the inconvenience

[pacman281292]

#@$%&$!!!

[nureins]

My final post to Darox was pointing out that if he's being lynched for being aggressive, that means I may be next.

Maybe you have to decide WHY WE LYNCHED DAROX FOR. Otherwise, it is going to be complicated to discuss. I thought that according to your view, we the retarded town lynched him for being lurker. Now it seems that it was for being aggressive...

I dont accept any of the two, but if I have to choose among them, lurker is much closer to reality than aggressive. Darox was not aggressive ever....

Now the rest of your post is quite illustrative.
I asked you about why you were worried being the next one. IMO, you thought that the last Darox post was scummish and maybe thought that we would look at you for a heavy defence. Hey, you can defend a person and even perceive he played badly. You are human, not a superhero of truth, though Im starting to doubt...

But now is funny, because you have starting to justify and discuss about:

- asking darox for an opinion on me
- discussing the NK
- discussing the powerroles we have...

among many other things. I have no idea why you are doing so...

[kuribo]

My final post to Darox was pointing out that if he's being lynched for being aggressive, that means I may be next.

Maybe you have to decide WHY WE LYNCHED DAROX FOR. Otherwise, it is going to be complicated to discuss. I thought that according to your view, we the retarded town lynched him for being lurker. Now it seems that it was for being aggressive...

I dont accept any of the two, but if I have to choose among them, lurker is much closer to reality than aggressive. Darox was not aggressive ever....

Now the rest of your post is quite illustrative.
I asked you about why you were worried being the next one. IMO, you thought that the last Darox post was scummish and maybe thought that we would look at you for a heavy defence. Hey, you can defend a person and even perceive he played badly. You are human, not a superhero of truth, though Im starting to doubt...

But now is funny, because you have starting to justify and discuss about:

- asking darox for an opinion on me
- discussing the NK
- discussing the powerroles we have...

among many other things. I have no idea why you are doing so...

Okay, I'm going to say this one more time.

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I DID NOT THINK DAROX WAS SCUMMY.

I WOULD HAVE CERTAINLY SAID SO IF I THOUGHT SO.

Darox was lynched because SCUM PUSHED HIS WAGON.

[kuribo]

And how do I know scum pushed his wagon?


A BULLCRAP CASE AGAINST DAROX WAS PUSHED TO A LYNCH WHILE IGNORING OBVIOUS SCUM PACMAN.


if THAT isn't indicative of scum pushing a wagon, by god, I don't know what is.

[nureins]

Okay, I'm going to say this one more time.

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I DID NOT THINK DAROX WAS SCUMMY.

havent you seen the IMO in my post ?
I havent said you SAID darox to be scum.
This was my interpretation of your last post. Why do you offend like that if I stated very clearly that this was my view ??

If this is not the case, then maybe you can explain me better why you had fears to be the next if you were so convinced of him being townie even at the final moment..I cannot understand your argument about aggressivity...especially because:

- Darox was not very aggressive
- you were more and people didnt vote you or attack you almost
- Ythill was the most aggressive player and though he was in the leading group, not more than 3/4 players convinced of his scumness...

So please, explain me about that feeling of you, coz im really unable to understand it...

[kuribo]

My statement was a direct response to the fact that he said he was being lynched because he was a "mean person."

*I* am a mean person.

You're taking a tongue-in-cheek throwaway line and trying to make it look as if I was attempting to discredit Darox.


AND YET YOU WONDER WHAT SORT OF BEHAVIOR I FIND SCUMMY ABOUT YOU.

I don't think you honestly believe I was calling Darox out as scummy, I think it's just more of your games that you're using to try and mislead the town.

[nureins]

My statement was a direct response to the fact that he said he was being lynched because he was a "mean person."

*I* am a mean person.

Then simply say is a joke and stop bickering for fun. I dont bicker for fun, even if i know I have a tendency to speak a lot...

But in post 972 you said:

My final post to Darox was pointing out that if he's being lynched for being aggressive, that means I may be next.

You can easily understand why Im totally lost with your attitude and words...

I don't think you honestly believe I was calling Darox out as scummy, I think it's just more of your games that you're using to try and mislead the town.

I noted your answer to kuribo only as a response to your egocentric claim on your right guess. It was a minor comment to slow you down in your irrational arguments. I didnt use it to accuse you of anything, so explain me how Im misleading the town. It is pretty obvious that 8 persons were perceiving darox as scum. Maybe there r 8 mafia around...good luck with such a crowd of bad guys...

[kuribo]

You're misleading the town by trying to mischaracterize the arguments against you. By attempting to discredit me, by proxy you attempt to discredit the (valid) concerns I have against you.

While I choose to hear "Maybe there are 8 mafia around..." as sarcasm, it also comes across as talking down to a person.


ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING I AM FULLY AWARE THAT NOT EVERYONE ON DAROX'S WAGON COULD POSSIBLY BE SCUM, NOR HAVE I EVER SAID ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY APPROACHING SUCH AN ASININE STATEMENT.

[Simenon]

notice how nuriens drops the "nice but determined townie" attitude for a pure nasty one.

[nureins]

You're misleading the town by trying to mischaracterize the arguments against you.

My first post was for you to come with a case against me. You consider a case is based on how loudly you say things. But this is useless for town. Go and explore my scumminess...but do it seriously. Ill answer every word you have to say, dont worry...

now i apologize as Im bickering again. But this guy is just loudly claiming his superiority over all of us, and I do not like this attitude (both in personal terms but also coz this is bad for town). Last post answering kuribo until he comes with a case to me.

Im collecting the list of questions I have. Ill write them down tomorrow or monday at most.

[kuribo]

My first post was for you to come with a case against me. You consider a case is based on how loudly you say things. But this is useless for town. Go and explore my scumminess...but do it seriously. Ill answer every word you have to say, dont worry...

now i apologize as Im bickering again. But this guy is just loudly claiming his superiority over all of us, and I do not like this attitude (both in personal terms but also coz this is bad for town). Last post answering kuribo until he comes with a case to me.

Im collecting the list of questions I have. Ill write them down tomorrow or monday at most.

Okay, let's break this down piece by piece.

"My first post was for you to come with a case against me. "

I have explained from the very start what I found scummy about you, and each thing I've found scummy since then, I've pointed out.

" You consider a case is based on how loudly you say things. But this is useless for town. Go and explore my scumminess...but do it seriously. "

This is just more language to try and minimize the case.

"now i apologize as Im bickering again."

Aw, how nice of you to apologize to the town for your behavior.

"But this guy is just loudly claiming his superiority over all of us, and I do not like this attitude (both in personal terms but also coz this is bad for town)."

Again, more language that tries to diminish the very real concerns. To say that because I've been 'loudly claiming my superiority,' you're attempting to pooh-pooh everything I've said about you, and then brand it with the (oh noes!) dreaded 'bad for the town,' label.

" Last post answering kuribo until he comes with a case to me."

That's just it, every part of the case against you, you've tried to diminish. Here's a little secret--- THAT'S SOMETHING THAT SCUM DO.

[nureins]

notice how nuriens drops the "nice but determined townie" attitude for a pure nasty one.

may you clarify this for me ? I dont understand what you mean

[Jahudo]

As far as the reasons for the Darox lynch, I saw sirdan's claim being a large factor because he was the top vote getter. But Darox as a lurker? If that's the reason then why not vote for nhat or Goat who might be posting the least here. Darox as aggressive? Then why not vote Ythill? I had my own reasons for suspecting Karne and then Darox but those were not it.

I think many town could have voted on a couple misreads in the last few RL days of the deadline that was getting chaotic, but a couple scum supporting the lynch sounds likely. Looking to how people interacted with pac/habit yesterday should help more in finding the other scum though. See if anyone helped him and limited their suspicion or interaction entirely.

IIRC, habit first got on me for going after TPT. Does anyone think this is a sign of scum protecting scum?

[Ythill]

Ythill repeated a couple of times that Kuribo was town. Please explain me which scenario you had in mind for repeating it so much, as I only thought of two of them...

None of your scenarios. I said it at first because it was my opinion. I repeated it at the end of the day because it was an opinion based on my own personal experience with kuribo (aka based on factors that would be gone if I died) and I thought I might die if sirdan was telling the truth. You have already attacked kuribo for his attitude, so you should understand why I warned people about it.

I agree that Ythill deserves some of the attention...

I'm a Leo, we love attention.

...since he was also instrumental in helping to derail the pacman wagon the second time around by repeatedly defending him.

And you've seen me defend my scumbuddies when? C'mon kuribo, you know me better than that. I'd have been on at least one of his wagons if I was scum. I defended him because the speed of the first wagon suggested that he was town. Also, when I compared him to either sirdan or Darox, each seemed like a better lynch (especially sirdan).

I also didn't like that the hammer came after I had asked Darox a question...

I'd had enough talk for the day and I didn't see it as an important question.

Anyway...

Suggesting that the mafia killed one of their own is retarded. One of three things happened. The mafia kill was blocked by a doctor/bulletproof, the mafia killer was RBed, or we have a bus driver that switched the mafia target for pacman. The latter seems most likely, and would suggest very highly that sirdan was telling the truth.

We could clear a lot of this up if the scum would tell us who they targeted. Please?

Well then how 'bout sirdan tells us who he targeted? I doubt the scum targeted anyone but him (unless he's scum) because the obvious choice for the kill if not sirdan would have been me (the only person they could be sure he wouldn't protect).

I suppose I will eventually have to reread the pertient parts of D1. Yuck. That's a lot of garbage to sort through...

[kuribo]

And you've seen me defend my scumbuddies when? C'mon kuribo, you know me better than that. I'd have been on at least one of his wagons if I was scum. I defended him because the speed of the first wagon suggested that he was town. Also, when I compared him to either sirdan or Darox, each seemed like a better lynch (especially sirdan).

That's exactly why I said: "However, based on my experience with Ythill-as-scum, he's not as blatant as he has been here." Perhaps I should have been more clear: Ythill is not a stupid player, and in my experience with him, he tends to straddle between distancing and casual "in-passing" type of low-key activity towards his partner. On the other hand, a player aware of his own meta (as you are, Ythill) is dangerous indeed.

I agree that I don't think the mafia would kill one of their own. I mean, the NK is a free kill, and letting pacman live would have forced the town to lynch him Day 2. And even that wasn't a guarantee.

Ythill, you're also ignoring the most obvious possibility: That we have / had a vig (possibly one-shot) who thought pacman should have been the lynch. As for sirdan, you assume yourself to be the NK, but alot of people had seen you as scummy for your attacks on sirdan. I don't think killing you last night was in the best interest of the mafia, if you're town, since the mafia would know they could try and paint you as scum for defending pacman.

The problem is that they had no reason not to target sirdan last night, but if sirdan is scum, then they had no reason not to kill at all.

And this, kids, is why we don't tend to discuss NKs.