Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[kuribo]

You know, it's also possible the Mafia forgot to send in a kill.

(I've been on scumteams where we waited for the godfather to send in the kill, and he forgot to do it.)

[sirdanilot]

I have my doubts that

A) Sirdan saw Ecto as the most pro-town player

and that

B) The Mafia saw Ecto as the biggest threat to them.

A) Why?
B) Why?

You know, it's also possible the Mafia forgot to send in a kill.

(I've been on scumteams where we waited for the godfather to send in the kill, and he forgot to do it.)

This is wifom, there's no way to verify this, and it's unlikely. External factors like absence and forgetting something are outside of the scope of the game, in my opinion.

[Ythill]

I find it a bit weird that you are asking me to give all this information, though. Motives?

Simply put, I'm still considering your claim. It was odd that you didn't die last night, but there may be reasons for that other than you being scum. Your process of elimination seems transparent enough. Warning to you though: if you are town, use a different process tonight so as to keep the scum guessing.

I have my doubts that

A) Sirdan saw Ecto as the most pro-town player

and that

B) The Mafia saw Ecto as the biggest threat to them.

A) Read his last post. He didn't.
B) Just because sirdan protected Ecto and he didn't die doesn't mean that the mafia NKed Ecto. It is still entirely possible that we have a redirect role that switched pacman with sirdan, or a riposte-kill role that was targeted by pacman.

Anyway, here's another slice of reread... the first habit wagon...

Sim earned himself townie-brownies. To a lesser extent, so did nhat and Andy (kuribo).

Habit buddied to Cass right after the wagon, which suggests that she's town. Her actions on the wagon were not blatantly townie, but habit's card-flip negated one tell I pointed out on her. Same with Jah, except multiple tells were negated. I don't think either of these two was implicated at all.

Tritch had already disappeared, so this wagon doesn't give us any information about sirdan.

Goat's defense of habit seemed natural enough, but there are a few extranious interactions that make me wonder. I wouldn't say this wagon implicated him but, due to other factors, we will probably want to keep an eye on him.

Ecto ignored the situation altogether. Add this to Darox II's points against him.

Nuriens practiced elephantine circumlocution, touching on the wagon but avoiding the topic of habit's alignment. Instead he pushed suspicion back on the wagon and, only 25 hours after the first vote on habit, twisted Cass' words to start a lurker hunt. Shortly thereafter, he inexplicitly changed his opinion about me so as to agree with me about habit's behavior being excusable.

[Ythill]

Some conclusions from my read so far:

I'm jumping on the nuriens wagon. I originally suspected him for some pretty serious tells. After I attacked him, he changed his behavior a bit which supported the theory that his bad play was due to inexperience, but it also could have been scum cleaning up his act.

There were some late-day actions from nuriens that piqued my suspicions again, like where he started buddying to me. Kuribo's reread also seemed valid.

Now that habit/pacman has flipped scum, nuriens is implicated worse than anyone. I don't think there's a clearer lynch candidate at this juncture, though further rereads may change my mind.

My secondary suspects, in no particular order, are Ecto, Goat, and sirdan. Evidence links Ecto to both nuriens and habit/pacman but the former is linked through nuriens' own buddying, which gives me pause. Goat is only implicated if nuriens flips scum. Sirdan is linked to pacman worse than the other two, but I am of the opinion that we should let him live at least one more day.

vote: nuriens

[kuribo]

I have my doubts that

A) Sirdan saw Ecto as the most pro-town player

and that

B) The Mafia saw Ecto as the biggest threat to them.

A) Why?
B) Why?

You know, it's also possible the Mafia forgot to send in a kill.

(I've been on scumteams where we waited for the godfather to send in the kill, and he forgot to do it.)

This is wifom, there's no way to verify this, and it's unlikely. External factors like absence and forgetting something are outside of the scope of the game, in my opinion.

A- Because Ecto's far from the most pro-town player?
B- See A?

And of course it's WIFOM, that's why people don't talk about NKs. Because it leads to discussion exactly like this.

[kuribo]

You know, though, now that I think of it, protecting Ecto does give sirdan's claim some weight. It would have been just as easy for him to say, "Oh, I protected Ythill" if he were lying, since Ythill fully expected himself to be the NK.

And I know it's WIFOM, but the Mafia sending in an NK would also serve to explain why the claimed doc didn't die. (Of course, so would a bus driver, as Ythill said)

[nureins]

FALSE. ALL THE ARGUMENTS.

1. I announced my vote to Darox before Ecto and Pacman voted.

2. I announced my scum list repeatedly, before your claim.

3. I said Id vote (lynch) pacman if there was some risk of no-lynch, also before your claim. And later again.

4. My suspicions lied on you. Then on simenon. Then on Darox.

-----

Then all your arguments in the same sentence are FALSE. And not vaguely false, but TOTALLY FALSE.

Please answer this post and comment each of my 4 points.

Nureins, I am more than willing to discuss this with you, since I think this is very important. However, you did not provide evidence (in the form of quotes) for 1, 2 and 3. A couple of quotes would do a lot to clarify this for me, so I can properly write a response. I decided not to dig through the thread to find evidence for your defense. If you are going to defend yourself, present some quotes to back it up.

1. Post 883. I announce my vote-movement to Darox.

Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...

Another reference in Post 898 (read the quote later in response to 2). Prior again to Ecto's vote. So I said it TWICE before Ecto voted.

Ecto votes in post 901. Pacman, nhat and Ythill later. I announced my Darox vote at L-5. No other of this group of four people announced a vote for Darox prior to 883, if you are wondering.

2. There are many of these. Especially when Darox was replacing Karne and there was a mess of votes in between 4 people (Sirdan, Ythill, Pacman and karne/darox). Here it goes one, but there are many others. My top scummies were Sirdan > Simenon > Darox, and among the 4 with most votes, the orther was Sirdan > darox > pacman > ythill, with Ythill largely below the other 3.

I was laughing a bit, because right now, among you four, my suspect list is

sirdan > karne > pacman > ythill

and you are the last in the list..Im really amazed.

The post was directed to Ythill, since among the four, I considered Ythill the only townie with large probability as to defend him fiercely.

Another one, before Ecto voted for Darox is in post 898. This connects to such previous ranking, as you can easily see.

Id vote simenon (though now he is more or less at darox level), but nonsense. Darox was my third chance, and Ill vote him. Im not trying to shift focus onto anything. I find Darox more suspicious than pacman. Then I vote for darox. If risk of no-lynch, I vote pacman...

And this quote is also another example for 1, as I mentioned.

3. BEFORE YOUR CLAIM:
Post 818

If we arrive to this weird situation, id like to know how many ppl is convinced that the other deserves a defence as town. In my case, im not convinced that pacman can be defended, so i wouldnt mind to lynch him...

The weird situation was a 6-6 tie situation between you and pacman, that was likely to occur giving the opposed view...

AFTER YOUR CLAIM:
read above post 898 (and there is another one, post 894)

4. You dont ask me for quotes to defend 4, but you can see some of them with Karne and also the one I cited in 898.

----

Then, your claim is TOTALLY FALSE.

Your argument of me voting for Darox at L-2 is "poor", as it lies in a real vote but not in my announcement, that came at L-5. If your argument is that L-2 votes and around in the current situation are suspicious, maybe people who voted after my announcement was influenced for my announcement, dont you think ? They knew I would vote for Darox soon, so they had my vote in mind. They are the "L-2" voters, not me. I announced my vote twice, only the BOLDFACE was lacking.

Also, your argument that I voted for someone I considered less suspicious is totally false, as I showed to you. All your "case" falls down.

Also, my "pacman-vote" compromise was a vote in case a no-lynch was faced. This situation never happened, so I never was in the situation to cast my vote for Pacman. Summing up, I came from Sirdan to Darox, going down in my scumlist (avoiding simenon, as that vote was nonsense, and the probability of a simenon lynching was almost zero, if not zero).

Then all your arguments are flawed. Completely. Not partially, but from A to Z. If this was not a game with experienced players that seem to suggest your claim is 90 per cent true or above, I would be really suspicious of you now with such poor arguments trying to join easily a wagon around me. After reading my quotes, go back to your argument and re-think it.

[Ythill]

@nuriens: Sirdan's crap-logic is to be expected, especially when he in analyzing a player as swingy as yourself. What I really want is for you to answer my comments.

If this was not a game with experienced players that seem to suggest your claim is 90 per cent true or above...

I hope you're not including me in this group. I still don't believe sirdan's claim, but I just don't see a compelling reason to disbelieve it and, strategically speaking, it behooves the town to keep him alive at least one more day.

[nureins]

@nuriens: Sirdan's crap-logic is to be expected, especially when he in analyzing a player as swingy as yourself. What I really want is for you to answer my comments.

Your comments are subtle, but fuzzy. You know it perfectly. However, let me discuss some ideas.

I originally suspected him for some pretty serious tells. After I attacked him, he changed his behavior a bit which supported the theory that his bad play was due to inexperience, but it also could have been scum cleaning up his act.

From our first debate, I yet mantain my opinion that you were not correct.
However, I dont think anymore that you analyzed me voluntarily in a wrong way, as at the beginning. You are not my little Goebels anymore.
During this time Ive seen you attacking other people, and Ive seen the reactions to my writting style in my first mafia-game (and post game analysis). Basically, I now think:

1. My writting style is probably explosive. My english is regular and latin-based. I write a lot as I think the more information is revealed the better for town. All these things make my posts terrible to read and probably I have a lot to improve. Indeed at some point I thought, "hey, when you have your first game as mafia you can try to shorten your posts, the length, etc, so as to arrive to a better balance".

2. People do not read completely my posts. I am starting to think that people basically skim my posts and get basic messages which are hardly the ones I wanted to transmit. Lot of examples during the game.

3. I have nothing to clean up, and you can come back to any of your arguments.

4. My inexperience is a fact. I have written more than 200 posts probably, but I do not like to use it as an argument generally. It does not apply to behavioral scumtells. Ectomancer was probably the first one pointing out my buddying. And I never considered him scummish for that. I understood his point. But IMO, it is highly influenced by inflation and my talking style. I can behave funny and buddy even with enemies in a harsh fight (I make use of too many metaphorical aspects that I should eliminate in a written forum, as I know my messages hardly arrive in the way I want to transmit them). This does not mean I forget the scumtells of people, or I try to appear as nicer to hide anything. People hate me due to my style generally, as you can see from the game. In the POST-GAME analysis of my first mafia game, some people voted for me, ironically saying they would have liked me to stop talking, even if they thought I was townie.

My inexperience applies mostly to "tactics". Reading certain probabilities of people being scum, reading claims or fake claims, reading night actions, etc. Some of the roles you describe...I have to check at wiki for them. But not for doing things that could be scummy. Im townie, i behave townie, and i go for scumhunting the way Im learning to do.

There were some late-day actions from nuriens that piqued my suspicions again, like where he started buddying to me. Kuribo's reread also seemed valid.

I debated with you dozens of points in which I didnt agree. I accepted plenty of them. I used our little affair to debate sirdan as he tried to appear melodramatic with your attack on him.

Obviously, remembering Goebels-love-affair and feeling jealous because you paid attention to sirdan was hard (that is a joke obviously, you can call it buddying. In my opinion, it is not. I separate facts and scumtells from these relaxed moments in posts. I wrote thousands of words so obviously you can find things like these. Plenty. But in serious business, I didnt accept your points and I debated plenty of them.

Kuribo's reread is very reference-dependent. I have read it again a little bit. Go and read his case. He wanted to lynch me already after the first pages. His main arguments there were my initial "TPT protection" and later modification. And this was totally false, as I argued. Totally false. I never protected TPT, I just was not speedy on him, as some people was at the beginning. You can go and see it. Indeed, for pointing out some things around the TPT case, and having my own opinion and scumhunting around, I received some attacks that I considered quite scummish. They influenced my initial list of possible scummies a lot.

Now that habit/pacman has flipped scum, nuriens is implicated worse than anyone. I don't think there's a clearer lynch candidate at this juncture, though further rereads may change my mind.

I cannot see where I am implicated at all. I asked couple of harsh things to habit as you pointed out. Then my view on him was basically shared by most people, including some of those I firmly thought townies (you can check it easily). Then he went on "bad player" category. My case was on sirdan basically, and I shared with you the initiative on him. Once this was not a possibility, I moved to my next candidate with probabilities to be lynched, darox. I would have voted for pacman if needed. And I would have fought to save you if needed. No more candidates around.

My secondary suspects, in no particular order, are Ecto, Goat, and sirdan. Evidence links Ecto to both nuriens and habit/pacman but the former is linked through nuriens' own buddying, which gives me pause. Goat is only implicated if nuriens flips scum. Sirdan is linked to pacman worse than the other two, but I am of the opinion that we should let him live at least one more day.

My suspects on Ecto and Goat are minor. And they are only a consequence of the lynch. Goat had the advantage of not playing at the moment of the lynch, and this could make us to forget him, but I havent had scum reads from him. I saw new-darox read on Ecto and I have some comments about him, but basically I see Ecto townie. The only curious thing to my mind is how he has been hidden in the voters list by voting after my two announcements of vote. I do not see any connections from Ecto and Goat to me. Ecto was the one pointing out buddying, which is probably the most serious behavioral scumtell on my side (even I think it is not hard to explain) so hardly I see this connection.

About Sirdan, well, my inexperience plays against me here. That is a tactical thing. So my opinion is hardly valid on that. If you think giving him another night is good, ok. I do not understand the situation at all. Lot of people were explicit about how counterclaiming was bad. I cannot understand this at all, but given lot of people said it, I suppose it is correct. I had a very positive feeling from Cass, who understood how unfair was to ask me to unvote sirdan so quickly arguing that he was a not counterclaimed doc while at the same time defending the position that counterclaiming was bad....I am lost about all these things.

I fully understand Kuribo's vote on me. I somehow understand your vote on me. I do not understand Jah's vote on me (his case is a shit too). I do not understand sirdan's pressure on me.

Fixed tags -Mod

[nureins]

Sorry for the awful quotes !

[Goatrevolt]

I've decided to stick with the game. I'm reading through right now trying to catch up and pull out information from day 1 that will help now that we know two player alignments.

I see nureins is under fire at the moment. I won't comment on that until I've fully reread, but has anyone looked at Cass? Her FoS but not a vote on Habitang seems suspicious to me now that we know he was scum.

[nureins]

If I have time, I'll post my case now, as I almost re-read everything. You can ask me for quotes, but it seems to be Im going to be busy answering back questions, so use my case as you prefer and at the moment you prefer.

1. Jahudo and Habitang fossed each other, fought a little bit about shit.
Among the many examples:

a. They played each other about the existence of certain power roles (mason-fishing...) (before post 100)

b. Habit misquoted habit and Jah reacted with his Fos. Post 104

FoS: habitang
Are you trying to put words in my mouth?

c. Jah "forgives" habit, accepts his attack partially but doesnt unfos him.
[quote"jah"]
@habitang
If you misquoted me on accident then that’s okay. The quote in question about TPT’s self-vote was similar to something I said earlier, but I wasn’t sure whether you were more interested in my responses or my reaction to a spotlight. As far as mason-fishing I didn’t know it came out like that. I wasn’t even familiar with the term and strategy since I’ve only played newbie games so far.
[/quote]

2. Basically, they help the other one to build an image of newbie. And they go on in an increasing level of cross-posting, but irrelevant. They always flied down. None of them took a serious position in the Ythill vs Nureins affair. This applies to the whole of the game, in my sense. (I pointed out to ythill something like that related to habit, if I remember well). This is important, as Ythill and myself are the two most active players IMO. They prefered to enter minor debates always.

3. Post 225, habit directly asks jah about it. They mantain their fight but not fly game:

@Jahudo: you are like doign teh same thing I accused you fo throughout this game. Of focusing on the irrelevant stuff so much and generatign discussion out of nothing. I said I cleared you because it seemed like scum would not keep doign it especially after being pulled up on it, but now you continuously do it as if to prove me right in clearing your name. It's WIFOM stuff but I woudl liek a better read of you. What do you make of it all? I mean of Ythill, Nureins, lurkers or whatever else you think is important?

4. Buth both of them choose not to attack any of us. They even defend us with some minor points all along the game. This is another of the reasons for which Kuribo can have his view on me. Habit and Jahudo were continuously pleasing partially Ythill and me. Habit and Jahudo discussed among them about who was the pleaser and who was the mild attacker.
But never and none took a position in our goebels affair.

5. Post 261 ends up a declining phase by habit. He suggests the no-lynch issue. He has done a couple of stupid posts that some people quickly interpreted as excessively emotional. Finally, in post 263, Jah decides to talk on ythill and me. He makes a very long post debating this topic. He is forced to take a position obviously, and he buys ythill but only slightly. IMO, a distracting post trying to focus conversation on the most inflamatory debate besides the habit issue, that is, Ythill-me.

6. POST 265. Jah comments on habit no-lynch as follows:

What do you know about this setup? I'm not accusing as much as asking for clarification because you make it sound like 8:2 is our best scenario of any role distribution.

Also I say a no-lynch day causes us to learn far less than say investigating multiple people and deciding on a lynch. With a lynch we have supporters and dissenters and their alignment adds to the conversation in the next day.

Sounds to me as a very strange comment to a no-lynch proposal. Maybe he was afraid of ppl attacking habit as they did for the no-lynch ? so they debated as if this would be part of their previous love-hate minor importance affair...In post 268 and 269, habit answers the same way to jahudo. More newbie mutual feed up ?

7. Post 281. Habit votes jah. They continue playing out of the radar. Indeed, he is ready to change the vote. In 289 he says, my vote stands until scum does something completely stupid. In 294, goes for relax...
he is becoming emotional and fake, apart from the no-lynch and roles. But jahudo was the main actor in all that, and he doesnt react at all.


Then

305 (nhat fosses habit for some of these things)
306 super fake reaction by habit
307 nhat votes
308 simenon votes
309 andy votes
310 cass fosses
311 Jah votes

But read to his post.

Now it's much better to get everything out in the open and try to fix yourself up. Be honest and clearly outline your opinions of me and the rest. Maybe outline like nureins and Ythill did if you think I've been overlooked. I have nothing to hide, do you?

Sounds quite coaching to me. And making a parallel of ythill-nur and jah-habit maybe...

Then some people (goat and ythill) probably perceive the wagon is quick and simply go for a reflection. And both of them stop talking until post 346.

8. Read post 346 and post 347. They come back. Habit post 346 aknowledges Cass for help and mantains soft suspicions on jah. In 347, jah says

your previous post made me think more about how Cass and others see you as erratic. More than anything I wanted to see you confirm or disprove this posting trait because it will help identify you as perhaps an erratic townie, attempting that fake emotional explosion, or maybe its something else at the heart of your previous post. That's really what I'm trying to see.
I did not think habit's previous post was rational and I considered that fact that it wasn't genuine because then and now you are not on the threshold of being lynched, so why act like you are? But not that you are on the threshold of being on the threshold, maybe the next actions you take will tell us more about you.

9. Post 354. habit ends up jahudo's affair.

My opinion of you, hmm… well Goat outlined an interesting case against you, I think his evidence is arbitrary but evidence on Day 1 is generally quite hard to come by. I’m very glad he simply read your posts. I definitely agree with his conclusion though about your lack of conviction. You have voted for me with conviction, and I am still curious to where that conviction comes from outside of my raving post.

This together with lot of newbie-mutual-cards among them.

10. Habit goes for low fly (andy) and jahudo makes another long post discussing with ythill and goat (habit defenders) and finally, as a good learning newbie, unvotes. Some people have noted his coaching.

-----

More to come in a second chapter about final stage of Day 1. (I already commented how interesting is the fact that Jahudo avoided to vote Darox, who was his TOP SCUM)

[Darox]

YOU ARE DEAD. STOP POSTING UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE BANNED FROM PLAYING (at least in my games).

This made me smile.

Comments on my post?

[Jahudo]

Comments on my post?

I think it's interesting that his opinion goes from yesterday saying pacman needs to die, then to pacman's wagon is scum-driven, to today Darox I and pacman both looked scummy. That might be an inconsistency, unless the pacman wagon only looked scummy because it was stalled. In that case it looks like an external scum-tell, not dealing directly with pacman.

What do you think about Ecto being the assumed night kill though?

---

On to nureins:

2. Basically, they help the other one to build an image of newbie. And they go on in an increasing level of cross-posting, but irrelevant.

You initially agreed I was being consistent with my reaction posts to habitang, who you called an erratic player. Sometimes you have to make a FoS on something minor like a misquote when you are still early in the day and watching for reactions. Also, if you go through the day it was habit who provoked and I reacted. I was actually trying to look at more people but spent most of my time answering him.

None of them took a serious position in the Ythill vs Nureins affair. This applies to the whole of the game, in my sense. (I pointed out to ythill something like that related to habit, if I remember well). This is important, as Ythill and myself are the two most active players IMO.

I don't think being the most active is an automatic town tell, nor is involving yourself in every debate. I was paying attention to it without cluttering it or answering questions that were not posed to me. IIRC Ythill was covering all the bases with questions about that beautiful dance argument. That was the Ythill v. nureins you were talking about?

But never and none took a position in our goebels affair.

It didn't make much sense. In hindsight I see it now as a distraction that wasn't well received anyway.

[Darox]

What do you think about Ecto being the assumed night kill though?

I think it's a load of rubbish.

Sirdan was the obvious night kill choice.
Claimed doctors have a short lifespan for a reason.

Other than that, I don't think anyone stood out.

[sirdanilot]

FALSE. ALL THE ARGUMENTS.

1. I announced my vote to Darox before Ecto and Pacman voted.

2. I announced my scum list repeatedly, before your claim.

3. I said Id vote (lynch) pacman if there was some risk of no-lynch, also before your claim. And later again.

4. My suspicions lied on you. Then on simenon. Then on Darox.

-----

Then all your arguments in the same sentence are FALSE. And not vaguely false, but TOTALLY FALSE.

Please answer this post and comment each of my 4 points.

Nureins, I am more than willing to discuss this with you, since I think this is very important. However, you did not provide evidence (in the form of quotes) for 1, 2 and 3. A couple of quotes would do a lot to clarify this for me, so I can properly write a response. I decided not to dig through the thread to find evidence for your defense. If you are going to defend yourself, present some quotes to back it up.

1. Post 883. I announce my vote-movement to Darox.

Kuribo is not gonna be happy probably, as my vote would move to darox...

Another reference in Post 898 (read the quote later in response to 2). Prior again to Ecto's vote. So I said it TWICE before Ecto voted.

Ecto votes in post 901. Pacman, nhat and Ythill later. I announced my Darox vote at L-5. No other of this group of four people announced a vote for Darox prior to 883, if you are wondering.

[/quote]
Ah yes, you announced that you would switch to Darox. You waited for 3 other people to do so first, though. I do not take back my first argument completely, but you are correct that you announced this beforehand.

2. There are many of these. Especially when Darox was replacing Karne and there was a mess of votes in between 4 people (Sirdan, Ythill, Pacman and karne/darox). Here it goes one, but there are many others. My top scummies were Sirdan > Simenon > Darox, and among the 4 with most votes, the orther was Sirdan > darox > pacman > ythill, with Ythill largely below the other 3.

I was laughing a bit, because right now, among you four, my suspect list is

sirdan > karne > pacman > ythill

and you are the last in the list..Im really amazed.

The post was directed to Ythill, since among the four, I considered Ythill the only townie with large probability as to defend him fiercely.

Another one, before Ecto voted for Darox is in post 898. This connects to such previous ranking, as you can easily see.

Id vote simenon (though now he is more or less at darox level), but nonsense. Darox was my third chance, and Ill vote him. Im not trying to shift focus onto anything. I find Darox more suspicious than pacman. Then I vote for darox. If risk of no-lynch, I vote pacman...

And this quote is also another example for 1, as I mentioned.

Okay.

3. BEFORE YOUR CLAIM:
Post 818

If we arrive to this weird situation, id like to know how many ppl is convinced that the other deserves a defence as town. In my case, im not convinced that pacman can be defended, so i wouldnt mind to lynch him...

The weird situation was a 6-6 tie situation between you and pacman, that was likely to occur giving the opposed view...

AFTER YOUR CLAIM:
read above post 898 (and there is another one, post 894)

4. You dont ask me for quotes to defend 4, but you can see some of them with Karne and also the one I cited in 898.

----

Then, your claim is TOTALLY FALSE.

Your argument of me voting for Darox at L-2 is "poor", as it lies in a real vote but not in my announcement, that came at L-5. If your argument is that L-2 votes and around in the current situation are suspicious, maybe people who voted after my announcement was influenced for my announcement, dont you think ? They knew I would vote for Darox soon, so they had my vote in mind. They are the "L-2" voters, not me. I announced my vote twice, only the BOLDFACE was lacking.

Also, your argument that I voted for someone I considered less suspicious is totally false, as I showed to you. All your "case" falls down.

Also, my "pacman-vote" compromise was a vote in case a no-lynch was faced. This situation never happened, so I never was in the situation to cast my vote for Pacman. Summing up, I came from Sirdan to Darox, going down in my scumlist (avoiding simenon, as that vote was nonsense, and the probability of a simenon lynching was almost zero, if not zero).

Then all your arguments are flawed. Completely. Not partially, but from A to Z. If this was not a game with experienced players that seem to suggest your claim is 90 per cent true or above, I would be really suspicious of you now with such poor arguments trying to join easily a wagon around me. After reading my quotes, go back to your argument and re-think it.

Alright then. You defended yourself well, I don't really have anything else to say. Thanks for clarifying this to me, it makes you seem a bit less of a suspect.

[kuribo]

You call that a good defense?

Are you high?

His defense basically amounts to, "Nuh-uh!"

Look, I've never liked when people say, "Oh, well, I'll vote for X later down the line." And then they do it AFTER the wagon picks up steam. Why? Simple--- Saying, "Well, I could vote for X" allows them to appear as if they want to actually be on the bandwagon when they're really testing the waters. Then, if the bandwagon gets a full head going, they can toss their vote on with the explanation, "Well, I said I was going to."

Nureins' defense is simply more of what he's been doing all along--- dismissing entire cases out of hand for BS reasons and attempting to convince the town that it's so. But, just because X isn't correct doesn't make Y and Z false.

[kuribo]

Also, I don't like how you just rolled over and accepted what he was shoveling.

[nureins]

Kuribo, if my order of lynch was clear (as I showed to sirdan), my voting movement behavior clear (as I showed to sirdan), and my announcement to move clear and repeated (as I showed to sirdan), what is left ?

Formulate the question in a clear way, as then Ill be able to answer in a clear way. Sirdan seems to be satisfied with my clear answer...because I dont want to interpret. I try to interpret, probably is about the fact that I didnt unvote sirdan quickly and moved. But hey, you can see that in Newbie 636 days before sirdan's claim I (and I say I because it was me essentially) lynched a claimed doc. I was just waiting for some opinions, time passing and so on. But my first 3 words in the post were READY TO UNVOTE. An experienced scum would have just done UNVOTE with no further comment, and you would be unable to follow his behavior.

You can clearly follow my behavior with my posts. And it seems that sirdan "misinterpreted" me or just skimmed my posts. As I commented to Ythill, I find this natural, as I do write a shit of long posts and so on. He has decently admitted, just by saying OKay, with no signal of fake regret for his attitude. For me it is a very townie read, one of the few I have had from him...

[kuribo]

Kuribo, if my order of lynch was clear (as I showed to sirdan), my voting movement behavior clear (as I showed to sirdan), and my announcement to move clear and repeated (as I showed to sirdan), what is left ?

Formulate the question in a clear way, as then Ill be able to answer in a clear way. Sirdan seems to be satisfied with my clear answer...because I dont want to interpret. I try to interpret, probably is about the fact that I didnt unvote sirdan quickly and moved. But hey, you can see that in Newbie 636 days before sirdan's claim I (and I say I because it was me essentially) lynched a claimed doc. I was just waiting for some opinions, time passing and so on. But my first 3 words in the post were READY TO UNVOTE. An experienced scum would have just done UNVOTE with no further comment, and you would be unable to follow his behavior.

You can clearly follow my behavior with my posts. And it seems that sirdan "misinterpreted" me or just skimmed my posts. As I commented to Ythill, I find this natural, as I do write a shit of long posts and so on. He has decently admitted, just by saying OKay, with no signal of fake regret for his attitude. For me it is a very townie read, one of the few I have had from him...

No matter how many times you point to previous games and say "Look, I'm an idiot everywhere," it doesn't change the fact that your behavior is scummy.

[nureins]

No matter how many times you point to previous games and say "Look, I'm an idiot everywhere," it doesn't change the fact that your behavior is scummy.

As my post to Ythill describes, at no moment whatsoever I have used inexperience or idiotic play as an excuse for my scumhunting or voting patterns. All my behavior tends to be reasoned and based on my beliefs of which the signals of scumminess are. Go and look for it.

If you dont like my answer to Sirdan, please clarify your extra questions and I will answer them accordingly. IMO, you are totally biased, and the fact that you were correct on guessing the scumminess of one person has only provoked a negative effect on you. As Ecto pointed out, you have excited the part of you that adoctrinates the rest of players and you go on claiming and claiming without discussing real facts.

[nureins]

second part.

POST 411. Jahudo makes a pbpa analysis of habit.
POST 413. I mostly read it as, habit is inexperienced.
POST 419. After a pbpa analysis of half a page, Jahudo easily moves his mind.

Now, I’ve felt that these are not great scum tells if you still think Habit is less experienced at the slow flow of these games and his impatience is the cause of these problems.

Indeed, Jah now thinks habit is townie and suggests a scum wagon-leading

I feel that some people saw only habit’s post 306 and ignored what he was doing up until that point. 306 was an obvious reason to vote, and any scum would have been happy to see habit write it. So I don’t think it is out of the question that scum can give momentum to a post like 306 even in the first 2 votes.

In my opinion, a very sudden change of opinion, given that Jahudo did a PBPA analysis to which he dedicated (supposedly) lot of reflection.

Post 424. Habit answers back to jah again with bit of "stick and carrot" attitude they have been playing all the game.

Post 457. Jahudo defends seriously his habit-inexperienced new position.

And habit dissapears. More on Pacman-jah coming.

Post 514. Pacman asks about reasons to vote habit.
Post 515. jah points out what habit said, and DRIVES PACMAN TO ANSWER ABOUT THE WAY IN WHICH HABIT SAID. Underline is Jahudo's...

Habitang's post 306 (page 13) is very defensive and he arguably wasn't under that much pressure. It brought attention to the ways he has played the game and argued for other things. I'm curious, what do you think habitang was trying to say in post 306? What do you think of the

way

he wrote it?

Post 520. Pacman answers back.

That's a frustration post. Maybe he was really confused, misunderstood and got himself in harmfool

So they have been able to make of habit's 306 post and his emotional attitude an HABIT-JAHUDO intimal thing...they are the two who talk again about it. But obviously, Jahudo is no longer suspicious of habit (pacman), and viceversa...

No more decent posts up to 557, where jahudo moves to the hot zone (Ythill-sirdan).

Post 589. jahudo comes back to karne, as karne has not been posting frequently.
Post 597 Fosses karne.
Post 627. He has no candidates. Doesnt want to decide among Ythill-Sirdan, prefers to wait for karne participating. Hey, the only "case" was habit, and indeed he is coaching-defending him along the attack, so no real case whatsoever.

post 649. Since he has been pressured to say things, he comes with some Sirdan's scumtells and analysis, but of course, doesnt take a serious position.

Only later he votes sirdan when Ythill is assigning points.

Long time with no posts or irrelevant posts.


718. he uses Ythill's raincoat and helps pacman.

I agree with Ythill about pacman's play; I don't think he's done anything bad on his own so far, or else I don't interpret it that way. If the feeling is more about habitang still, than why did his wagon end and why did the questioning largely end even before he had to be replaced

but basically, he is not participating in the hot-moments. His next post only comes in:

Post 782. Just some comment and re-stating his position.

A couple of minor posts about me, Cass, some comments and giving info about his pbpa on habit ("I did a pbpa, remember it" !!!) and unvotes after sirdan's claim.

he says that he will place his vote before deadline, but, where is he going to do it ?

If you have followed his case, there is only one possibility. Darox. He was his top suspect. None else apart sirdan. Nothing. Emptiness. No cases. No real suspicions of anyone else.

You have one candidate, only one candidate, you do not suspect of anyone. But HE DOES NOT CAST HIS VOTE. AND REMAINS TILL THE END OF DAY WITHOUT VOTING.

unique post:
post 935. he defends pacman but does not want to bet for darox. Just stays quiet.

post 957. He says he would lynch darox if risk of no-lynch and mildly supports the wagon, but takes no real serious position. Even if Darox was his top scum (indeed, he argues that karne was, and that darox has not provided enough info).

Essentially, all his scumhunting along the game is:

- Joining a wagon when it was really serious (and Ythill and I had been battling for days and days), that turned into a Doc Claim.

- A replaced player. And he abstains to vote the replacement.

- Habit, who after all, he thinks is a townie.

Among these 3 choices, what is his activity ? he unvotes and remains quiet.

VOTE: JAHUDO

p.d. (on Day 2). After all Day 1 being sweet with both Ythill and Me, suddenly, he joins the obvious Nureins wagon. Read his post.

HE SELECTS A VERY MINOR AMOUNT OF DEBATABLE ACTIONS (though he claims it is based on the whole day)
HE ONLY USES HABIT ACTIONS TO JUSTIFY A VOTE ON ME

Obviously, not very difficult. Habit and Jah were "pleasing" ythill and me during all day one.

[Cass]

Sorry for not posting more. I've been very busy at work.

notice how nuriens drops the "nice but determined townie" attitude for a pure nasty one.

In the first place, he still seems quite reasonable to me. In the second place, Kuribo (on purpose or not) causes this kind of reaction in people. He attacks in a way that demands an aggressive response and leads to irritation. This is his playstyle, it would surpise me if he would deny this.
So it's hardly fair to throw suspicion on Nuriens for being affected by this playstyle. It's a null-tell.

FoS: Simenon

He's very blatantly lurking today, and this makes him my number one suspect, though not by a large margin.

Other suspects, in no particular order: nuriens, sirdan, nhat/darox2, goat. Mostly based on the analysis of interactions that other players have posted.

[Jahudo]

HE SELECTS A VERY MINOR AMOUNT OF DEBATABLE ACTIONS (though he claims it is based on the whole day)
HE ONLY USES HABIT ACTIONS TO JUSTIFY A VOTE ON ME

Yes because I said I would try to find habit/pacman's partner by looking at how habit interacted with people. I will go back and weigh your posts more carefully now too. For starters, I could go back to when I posted 'if habitang was town' material and you were defending me against Ythill.

POST 419. After a pbpa analysis of half a page, Jahudo easily moves his mind.

Ythill and Goat made me consider my tunnel-visioned attacks on habit were not seeing all possibilities. So I went back and considered that habit was inexperienced and impatience with the long, drawn out day. I think in hindsight that is still true, but I got the alignment wrong on my re-read. Post 419 gave my top scumtells on habit, but my mind read impatience is what a habit-town would do.

Post 589. jahudo comes back to karne, as karne has not been posting frequently.

It wasn't because of his posting frequency. I told him he's not being productive by talking about talking in Spanish for this game, and only revealing that his feelings towards nureins were reflected in what Simenon kinda-joked-about but karne doesn't go into depth. Then I say nureins has had bad arguments and prod karne into explaining himself. Was I being too "sweet" to you there?

Post 627. He has no candidates. Doesnt want to decide among Ythill-Sirdan, prefers to wait for karne participating.

But then karne disappears and I go back through the Ythill-sirdan debate that includes nureins and Goat in supporting roles and I found sirdan scummy. This is about a day after you say I didn't decide.

Emptiness. No cases. No real suspicions of anyone else.

I seem to remember a nureins leading the charge on getting our top 2 or 3 scum choices. In post 649 I said 1) Karne 2) sirdan but given more time I'd look at Ecto because I could "provide crazy theories and quotes", and Andy, nhat were others I wouldn't dismiss as town.

[nureins]

For starters, I could go back to when I posted 'if habitang was town' material and you were defending me against Ythill.

Please copy for me the post in which Ythill adviced me not to roll so easily...

POST 419. After a pbpa analysis of half a page, Jahudo easily moves his mind.

Ythill and Goat made me consider my tunnel-visioned attacks on habit were not seeing all possibilities.

So for me, after doing a pbpa, that sounds pretty fast move.