Mini 666 - This Could Be Mafia - MOD ABANDONED

[Grimmy]

the mod made a note in the vote count that peoples win conditions may be worded different, or something to that effect.

Not sure if this helps a case, or kills this line of suspicions, though.

<waves to shadowgirl>

Im here, sort of. Been busy and sick, so My time on this site has been spotty.

Grimmy
sneezing his two brain cells out

[Muerrto]

Weekend. Post after

[ShadowGirl]

Weekend, homework, see ya'll on monday.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Sorry for being away so long, my life has been getting steadily busier.

I think we ought to leave the win conditions alone. I don't see anything good coming out of trying map out the differences in win conditions.

I disagree. Win conditions, their wording, and their variation have become a major issue, so I feel that it would be in the town's best interests to get as much information about them out there as is available. How could it hurt?

I'm thinking that it is highly unlikely that tajo straight-up guessed the townie win conditions (or, in a quickly dwindling possibility, one of the win conditons). No one would have felt that the claim was incomplete without a stated win-condition, and just putting one out there on the off-chance that it will be correct is a pretty hefty gambit (same applies to a scumbuddy supporting the claim and calling attention to its win-condition while also not knowing if it is correct). All in all, Falcone is making far too much of an error of sentence structure.

Going way back in time, I'm kind of uncomfortable about Muerrto's case on tajo. A lot of it seems like the pot calling the kettle black. No scumhunting? Try isolating Muerrto's posts and see what he's put out before the tajo case. Appeals to emotion? Half the tajo case was padded with unnecessarily barbed rhetorical questions and free-standing insults. I got the impression from it that tajo has said more stupid things than the average player here but not much else. A bunch of unrelleated snips with captions saying "hey everybody, look how stupid this is!" doesn't prove that anybody's scum.

@Muerrto: I'm not sure if you're scum yet, and it certainly seems like you have things to say on populartajo. Let's try this approach:
-Choose 2-3 ways in which tajo has been scummy (like actually, provably, cohesively scummy). We've already gotten the chronological perpsective and it was disorienting. I'm interested in what you have to say by topic.

@Tony-Montana: You don't take somebody's wording for no reason. If you call his lynch full of information, you're calling his lynch full of information. I really don't buy the way you're trying to back out of this, and to put it another way, consider the following conversation.
Person A: You're dumb.
Person B: No, you're dumb.
Person C: Hey, Person B, did you just call Person A dumb?
Person B: No, I called him ugly.

(Try to guess which person you are)

[TonyMontana]

I disagree. Win conditions, their wording, and their variation have become a major issue, so I feel that it would be in the town's best interests to get as much information about them out there as is available. How could it hurt?

It might help scum in the search of powerroles?

@Tony-Montana: You don't take somebody's wording for no reason. If you call his lynch full of information, you're calling his lynch full of information. I really don't buy the way you're trying to back out of this, and to put it another way, consider the following conversation.
Person A: You're dumb.
Person B: No, you're dumb.
Person C: Hey, Person B, did you just call Person A dumb?
Person B: No, I called him ugly.

(Try to guess which person you are)

*hoping for Person C*

[Grimmy]

See the end of post 362. Thats what I was talking about.

Grimmy
not sure if he was aloowed to quote it, so I didnt

[TonyMontana]

I think most people are aware, grimmy.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

It might help scum in the search of powerroles?

How so? Are you proposing that power-roles will have reliably different win-conditions from townies?

Also, this game needs more posting.

[TonyMontana]

I don't know. I'm just saying, the less we know the better.

[ShadowGirl]

I don't know. I'm just saying, the less we know the better.

The less we know the better? Shouldn't it be the opposite? More knowledge for town = good?

[populartajo]

Nab, Im still waiting for Muerrto to suspect another player besides me.
Also I think I am being pretty logical, dunno where you get the "more stupid things than the average player."
Falcone you are free to do what you guess is best for town. Speculating about win conditions is valid (since Im basing Tony's innocence and mine on it) as long as we dont out somethin scum shouldnt know. Although I dont know how is this related to your general thoughts of Muerrto...

[ShadowGirl]

I'm just trying to think of how PRs would have different win conditions, unless they're some third party role. I mean, obviously I don't want to out any PRs, but Tony, I'm just sort of getting the vibe that you want to put the win condition discussion under the rug so you don't accidentally slip up anywhere.

[populartajo]

Shadowgirl who is scum and why?

[TonyMontana]

Look, Shadowgirl, what do you expect to learn from a reveal of who has the same win condition?

[ShadowGirl]

Look, Shadowgirl, what do you expect to learn from a reveal of who has the same win condition?

Not the same, different. Well, find scum and possibly any SKs or other detrimental roles to town. You don't want the discussion to continue, why not?

@Tajo: My suspicion is still on Tony for reasons I've said before: wagonning, being generally evasive [or not reading the thread], and you not wanting to discuss the conditions is a little odd - or at least not giving any reason as to why you don't want to.

Mod, can we have a prod on Erg0, Batt?

I'll release one upon Erg0. I notice Battousai does not need one.

[populartajo]

So, do you believe my claim? The thing, my dear shadow girl is that I think Tony is town. Besides him, who do you suspect?
What do you think of Muerrto?
Also, why did you ask a prod on them in this exact moment and not before?

[ShadowGirl]

Because I hadn't realized exactly how long it had been since they'd posted. This game has lagged a bit, if you haven't noticed. Batt posted in the last page, and it doesn't seem like that long since then. And Erg0 doesn't seem to be posting much anywhere. :/
As I've said before - Yes, I'm leaning towards believing your claim - that doesn't mean I completely consider it true.
Hm, I haven't gotten much of a read on Muerrto for one way or the other, really. I'll think I'll do a small reread on him.

[Battousai]

damn computer wouldn't let me post this (twice in a row now)...

Sorry for not being active, been busy all weekend and today doing homework (I have to write a persuasive paper on which gender is smarter, without picking neutral and had to write a program with Ada95 using multiple procedures to calculate the tenths of a second will spend in college and converting it to years/days/hours/minutes/seconds; the latter assignment is what I'm having the hardest time with).

ShadowGirl: If we discuss alternate win conditions, the scum/third party roles (who already have a different win condition) will know who has different conditions, and may choose to kill those people off to try and kill all the town powerroles. If tony is scum, he could also take this chance to not only appear to be helping the town, but to get the discussion off of him and tajo claiming to have the same win condition and the likes and try to blend in again.

Right now, I think we should be going for today's lynch. It's been 16 pages (plenty of information), and I think we need to progress this game along so not to hamper the town with a long day 1. I think both Tony and tajo are scum, but I feel tajo should be kept alive a minimum of one day as a precaution in case he's telling the truth and that he will have at least one night action to post. That leaves Tony, and I'm leaving my vote there.

[skitzer]

Finally, the Grim Replacer's box snaps open, and out comes competentpsycho.

"Here, take this." The Grim Replacer's wife snaps as she hands him the box. "I'm off to get the number of that hot cloaked guy over there with the scythe." And with that, she stalks off.

Vote Count Equations At the Moment:

populartajo = +competentpsycho+fuzzylightning+Muerrto+Falcone = 4
Muerrto = +populartajo+TonyMontana = 2
Grimmy = +Vivian Darkblaam+Voodo-Grimmy = 1
Falcone = +Erg0 = 1
TonyMontana = -TonyMontana+Battousai+ShadowGirl = 1
Erg0 = = 0
Vivian Darkblaam = = 0
Voodo = = 0
Battousai = = 0
fuzzylightning = = 0
ShadowGirl = = 0
competentpsycho = = 0
Jimmybot = -Vivian Darkblaam-Erg0-ShadowGirl = -3

Not Voting = -Falcone+Grimmy-Muerrto-populartajo-Voodo-competentpsycho-Battousai-fuzzylightning = -6

FoS Count:

Falcone has pointed two fingers of suspicion at TonyMontana!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at Timeater!
Falcone has pointed a finger of suspicion at Battousai!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at TonyMontana!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at Voodo!
Falcone has pointed a finger of suspicion at populartajo!
Muerrto has pointed a finger of suspicion at TonyMontana!

Note: The win condition may not be the same for all players.

[ShadowGirl]

Mod, I'm positive voting Tony.

[Muerrto]

As Falcone has pointed out there are three possibilities regarding my claim.
a)I could be the real watcher and I have a town win condition
b)I could be scum and I somehow have a town win condition in my PM.
c)I should stop playing mafia and spend all my money in lottery tickets becuase I am extremely lucky : I guessed town's win condition.

How can I possibly worry about suspecting anyone else when you post stuff like that? I mean if you flip scum Tony's obv partner but right now I'm quite cool with watching you burn.

[Vivian Darkblaam]

Nab, Im still waiting for Muerrto to suspect another player besides me.
Also I think I am being pretty logical, dunno where you get the "more stupid things than the average player."

I never said you do say more stupid things than the average player (I might have thought it, but that's a different story). I was paraphrasing/strawmanning-for-the-sake-of-convenience Muerrto's argument.

@Muerrto: It's stuff like the above posts that I'm talking about. Even if that post is very scummy (it might be), you haven't explained why, and you have used the very same hyperbole and fallacious appeals you've dinged tajo for.

I don't expect a win condition claim to reveal any halfway competent scum; it is just to confirm or deny the idea that there are multiple town win conditions. Scum will lie if they have a different condition, but any townie with a differing condition is obligated by the weight of almost all Mafia theory on the subject to be truthful in their claim.

[populartajo]

Nab and all over there: Muerrto is scum. The reasons why he voted me werent scumtells and were just weak reasons to join a powerful wagon like mine. I wouldnt suspect him this much if he hadnt agreed with me in the first part of the game. He just changed his opinions as soon as he thought I linked him with Ergo.
(Im still wondering where the hell did he get this idea for voting me.)
My point is that he couldnt blame for shit reasoning before (because he agreed with me) then why exactly did he vote me?
I realize my play hasnt been optimal after almost all the town went against me. I just tend to get frustrated when Im attacked for weak reasons. But his reasons for his vote were much before this.

[Muerrto]

@Muerrto: It's stuff like the above posts that I'm talking about. Even if that post is very scummy (it might be), you haven't explained why, and you have used the very same hyperbole and fallacious appeals you've dinged tajo for.

Really? Are you serious?

As Falcone has pointed out there are three possibilities regarding my claim.
a)I could be the real watcher and I have a town win condition
b)I could be scum and I somehow have a town win condition in my PM.
c)I should stop playing mafia and spend all my money in lottery tickets becuase I am extremely lucky : I guessed town's win condition.

Choice A, he's town and a watcher. Choice B is retarded. Scum with a town win condition? Why the hell would you have a town win condition as scum? Choice C is also retarded. Guessing the number between 1-1000 is lucky. Guessing that you win as town when all threats are elimanated etc is NOT lucky, it's obvious. I have no clue where this 1 in 5 crap came from and sadly, neither does Tajo. Read back, that statistic was given by Tony, not Tajo. Tajo simply ran with it because it painted him in a better light.

Is that better?

The reasons why he voted me werent scumtells and were just weak reasons to join a powerful wagon like mine. I wouldnt suspect him this much if he hadnt agreed with me in the first part of the game. He just changed his opinions as soon as he thought I linked him with Ergo.

My point is that he couldnt blame for shit reasoning before (because he agreed with me) then why exactly did he vote me?
I realize my play hasnt been optimal after almost all the town went against me. I just tend to get frustrated when Im attacked for weak reasons. But his reasons for his vote were much before this.

Powerful wagon? When I voted you only had ONE other vote(possibly 2, there's no vote count anywhere near there unfortunately but still no where near a wagon let alone a powerful one). I agreed it was weird Time all of a sudden decided to leave and that's been the basis of your entire case against me so far. I agreed Time was scummy so then when you start doing scummy things and I disagree I'm now scum for 'flipping'? How the hell can anyone actually justify this 'case'?

[populartajo]

1.That werent my options. Those were Falcone options. Post 360. I just added some flavour, ya know? Read better, please.

2. Tony gave the statistics. I proved (and anyone can do it) that it wasnt a stardard win condition as you meant it to be. Post 273. Read better, please x2

3. It had potential to be a powerful wagon because pretty much all the town considered my vote for Timeater scummy. In fact, post 194 (the post after you voted me) is an answer to 5 diferent players considering me possible scum. My point is what SCUMMY THINGS things did I do to get YOUR vote after post 194? Making a mistake about prodding you? REALLY?

Diescumdie.