Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[sirdanilot]

sirdan, why do you accuse Ythill of avoiding arguments when nureins does the exact same in a roundabout and verbose way?

That's indeed a rather interesting point, if you'd make a clear, not hard to read case on nureins showing enough of evidence that shows that behaviour, that would be helpful to the town I think. You don't have to show every instance of him doing this, but just organize it in a clear way.

I think there's a fundamental difference though; whatever I do, Ythill will not reply to the parts he skipped, even if I repost them a thousand times. Whereas nureins may avoid a question with smart wording (although that still remains to be seen), I think that it'd be somehow possible to squeeze an answer out of him. But if you can disprove this point as well (I could imagine something like circular reasoning), be my guest. You'll need to be very convincing though, since I am pretty confident with my vote on Ythill, as well as my suspicion on Simenon.

Kuribo, what do you think about Ythill and simenon avoiding real debate with me? Do you agree that they are indeed doing this or not, and why? Do you recognize the same pattern in avoiding (not the way they do it, of course, but when and how often) in these two as in nureins?

[kuribo]

I think that with simenon, it's just his playstyle. Ythill's is a bit more interesting. It's a bit uncharacteristic for him, but it could also be a result of the heat that's gone on between the two of you.

Give me a few minutes on the nureins bit.

[kuribo]

Here's one example from the early beginning:

@ nuriens: There's been time to see what's developed. Now, do you find me scummy? Or Pope? Or both? Or neither? Why?

I was simulposting at the same time you wrote this...and you can see there all my answers. This is Spain, I hope you dont pretend me to write at 4 a.m.

Now during the day I can be active answering from time to time some posts. And at the morning I can do a big one as I did today...

Now time to work. Enjoy the day...

For starters, he says he was simulposting at the time Ythill wrote his post. Ythill's post came in four hours before nureins'. How long did it take him to write the post?

And, if you read the preceding posts, 104 and 105, you see that he really DIDN'T answer Ythill's question, "Do you find me scummy?"

He does, however, toss an FOS onto TPT and say that he doesn't want the poor little guy to feel pressured.

This is shortly before he votes Simenon. Is the scumteam intimidated by Sim?

Want another example? Sure!

When I said you wouldn't take a stand, it had nothing to do with you not voting. It had everything to do with your extensive use of qualifying phrases. Good townies are not afraid to be wrong and, especially since English is not your first language, I'd think you understand the power of qualifiers to make a statement ambivalent.

This is a funny argument. Before voting someone for his writting style, I would have take a read to some of his posts in other games...obviously, you didnt.

Other things I find suspicious: basing your current case on theory disagreements, ]suspicion growing against Sim while his tells have been showing more town than scum, suddenly both taking a stance and making a vote in answer to my accusation, and buddying to Cass.

1. theory disagreements ?? my initial suspicion is based on simenon's intervention in tpt vs ythill.
2. suspicion came into a vote. Why do you think later on he has gone a lot up ? Cass already unvoted him...and I could do the same or not depending on the existence of a better suspect...
3. FALSE. READ MY POST. I WAS ANSWERING POSTS ONE BY ONE. IF I WERE SCUM I WOULDNT USE SUCH RIDICULOUS STRATEGY TO HIDE A VOTE, DONT U THINK ?
But obviously, you havent read my posts very carefully, just you jumped over me the same way you jumped when I mentioned you the first time...too many quick votes for someone who is reluctant to cast votes in the beginning.

At least you could have used Ectomancer's arguments, which were incorrect but credibe (oh, ectomancer, am I claiming your authority again ? now it sounds more like authority, not like townie-reading, haha)

OMGUS vote:

UNVOTE. VOTE: Ythill

Here he is, by his own admission engaging in attempting to minimize what Ythill says about him. (And tosses in a pointless / blatant / self-admitted OMGUS)

The accusation is right there. Where it says: "you haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it". You might argue saying that cass' quote is just a stylish FoS, but why say it? everyone should be looking at everyone's behavior, there's no need to say it again.

Andy, you have gone back only until post 118 (by Cass). Please go back until post 115 (by Simenon), in which he is the first that assumes someone has accused him. He says explicitly, SHOW ME WHERE I'VE BACKTRACKED (If i remember correctly). Before 115, No Cass word was saying he did, just saying stating someone is town without any reasoning allows someone to hide a lot of intentions and modify later in whatever direction, and therefore, it is not useful for town but only for scum...

OMGUS vote

Admitting to OMGUS is one of the most antitown attitudes.

I am completely sure that you are able to understand the difference between an OMGUS attitude and someone who "announces" that the following vote can be labelled (only because of formalism) as an OMGUS' vote according to the definition...

Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...

I'm not against pressure wagons, but I want to know:

@nureins: if you wanted to see a pressure wagon on me, why didn't you vote (I'm not within quicklynch, I hope)?

For two reasons. The first, that I had a clear objective, so my vote is casted accordingly. The second, that Ectomancer is yet dealing with his pressure on me, and I do not want him to get lost in the forest with a vote on someone who is just in my scumeter because of absence of posts. So I kindly "asked" to people to start this wagon (and probably Cass who believes that Im town, accepted the invitation).

I do not think you are in quicklynch at all, but Id like to see more words (in this forum, in this game, about this game ) from you to end up forming an opinion.[/quote]

When called out on the OMGUS vote, he downplays it.


Jesus Christ, I could keep going, but I don't want to grow old sitting here at this computer.

[sirdanilot]

Here's one example from the early beginning:

@ nuriens: There's been time to see what's developed. Now, do you find me scummy? Or Pope? Or both? Or neither? Why?

I was simulposting at the same time you wrote this...and you can see there all my answers. This is Spain, I hope you dont pretend me to write at 4 a.m.

Now during the day I can be active answering from time to time some posts. And at the morning I can do a big one as I did today...

Now time to work. Enjoy the day...

For starters, he says he was simulposting at the time Ythill wrote his post. Ythill's post came in four hours before nureins'. How long did it take him to write the post?

And, if you read the preceding posts, 104 and 105, you see that he really DIDN'T answer Ythill's question, "Do you find me scummy?"

He does, however, toss an FOS onto TPT and say that he doesn't want the poor little guy to feel pressured.

This is a good argument, that's indeed a scum tell for nureins.

This is shortly before he votes Simenon. Is the scumteam intimidated by Sim?

Not sure what you mean with this.

Want another example? Sure!

When I said you wouldn't take a stand, it had nothing to do with you not voting. It had everything to do with your extensive use of qualifying phrases. Good townies are not afraid to be wrong and, especially since English is not your first language, I'd think you understand the power of qualifiers to make a statement ambivalent.

This is a funny argument. Before voting someone for his writting style, I would have take a read to some of his posts in other games...obviously, you didnt.

Other things I find suspicious: basing your current case on theory disagreements, ]suspicion growing against Sim while his tells have been showing more town than scum, suddenly both taking a stance and making a vote in answer to my accusation, and buddying to Cass.

1. theory disagreements ?? my initial suspicion is based on simenon's intervention in tpt vs ythill.
2. suspicion came into a vote. Why do you think later on he has gone a lot up ? Cass already unvoted him...and I could do the same or not depending on the existence of a better suspect...
3. FALSE. READ MY POST. I WAS ANSWERING POSTS ONE BY ONE. IF I WERE SCUM I WOULDNT USE SUCH RIDICULOUS STRATEGY TO HIDE A VOTE, DONT U THINK ?
But obviously, you havent read my posts very carefully, just you jumped over me the same way you jumped when I mentioned you the first time...too many quick votes for someone who is reluctant to cast votes in the beginning.

At least you could have used Ectomancer's arguments, which were incorrect but credibe (oh, ectomancer, am I claiming your authority again ? now it sounds more like authority, not like townie-reading, haha)

OMGUS vote:

UNVOTE. VOTE: Ythill

Here he is, by his own admission engaging in attempting to minimize what Ythill says about him. (And tosses in a pointless / blatant / self-admitted OMGUS)

Well yeah, that omgus was bad. Anyway:
1. He says he didn't base his vote on theory disagreements. I don't see how this is evasive, it's just an I-didn't defense.
2. Here, nureins' response is indeed evasive. When I read it, I get the idea 'he is saying something, but what does he mean and what does it have to do with the question'.
3. What has this statement got to do with Ythill's question.

So yes, Kuribo, I more or less get your point here.

The accusation is right there. Where it says: "you haven't yet. I will as soon as you start doing it". You might argue saying that cass' quote is just a stylish FoS, but why say it? everyone should be looking at everyone's behavior, there's no need to say it again.

Andy, you have gone back only until post 118 (by Cass). Please go back until post 115 (by Simenon), in which he is the first that assumes someone has accused him. He says explicitly, SHOW ME WHERE I'VE BACKTRACKED (If i remember correctly). Before 115, No Cass word was saying he did, just saying stating someone is town without any reasoning allows someone to hide a lot of intentions and modify later in whatever direction, and therefore, it is not useful for town but only for scum...

OMGUS vote

Admitting to OMGUS is one of the most antitown attitudes.

I am completely sure that you are able to understand the difference between an OMGUS attitude and someone who "announces" that the following vote can be labelled (only because of formalism) as an OMGUS' vote according to the definition...

Andycyca: Lot of lurking posting. Desire someone to start a wagon against him at some moment to see his reactions...

I'm not against pressure wagons, but I want to know:

@nureins: if you wanted to see a pressure wagon on me, why didn't you vote (I'm not within quicklynch, I hope)?

For two reasons. The first, that I had a clear objective, so my vote is casted accordingly. The second, that Ectomancer is yet dealing with his pressure on me, and I do not want him to get lost in the forest with a vote on someone who is just in my scumeter because of absence of posts. So I kindly "asked" to people to start this wagon (and probably Cass who believes that Im town, accepted the invitation).

I do not think you are in quicklynch at all, but Id like to see more words (in this forum, in this game, about this game ) from you to end up forming an opinion.

When called out on the OMGUS vote, he downplays it.


Jesus Christ, I could keep going, but I don't want to grow old sitting here at this computer.

I am not really agreeing with you here. Nureins says he meant the 'OMGUS vote' statement more or less sarcastic, in that he meant his vote could be read as an omgus vote. Is this a valid defense? No, since it's WIFOM and he didn't make it very clear he didn't mean it as announcing a true omgus vote, but I don't see how this falls under avoiding a question.

So yes, kuribo, nureins avoids questions, not in all these instances, but in most of them, however, I still don't really see a very good reason to vote him over Ythill yet.

[kuribo]

okay, now take the fact that you agree with a few of the things in those three cases i cited...


then add in the fact that I cited three out of MANY

[nureins]

1. With respect to "simulposting" and avoiding the answer to ythill.

First I cannot see why the simulposting issue is relevant at all. I cannot remember that day/night, so hardly I can tell you what I was doing. In any case, I answered to Ythill, so your point has no sense.

Look

"Ectomancer seems to believe Ythill is more townie than TPT. Can I assume that you too ? Indeed, I had serious doubts before the information he gave on his experience.
Also, having been so careful as to choose a different game to play with, etc etc, having thought so much about his participation in this forum, etc etc, is it credible he is not aware what an OMGUS is ? This is my second game ever (in any forum, and even in my complete life, i havent played before !) and I KNOW what an OMGUS is from the first game (and even having some curiosity on the wiki i had found it before my first game)..."

SO CLEARLY, I WAS SAYING:

a) I had no clear view on who among ythill-tpt was more suspicious, if any. Remember the 1-4 points I raised for debate ? probably you dont, you forget things

b) Now tpt's scumtells made me to think on him as more suspicious that ythill.

Also, I expressed openly and largely my suspicions on Simenon and Tpt and after, I unvoted (ythill) and fossed simenon and tpt.

unvote
FOS: simenon
FOS: tpt

If this is not an answer for you, nothing can be. LIE.

2. FOSSING TPT AND DEFENDING HIM.

Again false. I raised my suspicions with his attitude. Some people voting him unvoted, as you can read in my words of this post. I said also that his autovote was dangerous and suspicious. You have read above. But in the following quote you can read what I meant on a quick lynch by emotional players. Not that I did not want him to be pressured...not that i was defending him. LIE.

"My advice is for you to stop that arrogance, TPT. This is not gonna help you. Some people like Ectomancer have unvoted you (I would have unvoted you coz I would have feared up a quick lynch by couple of emotional people). This doesnt mean the unvoters stopped believing you are scum. Indeed, I truly believe lot of people (including me) have scummy impressions on you. If you are town and just behaving arrogant, think of it... "

3. OMGUS. Ridiculous. You read the posts isolated and without interest. We were discussing on OMGUS with TPT, as he supposedly didnt know what an OMGUS vote was. I said that being my second game, I perfectly knew what an OMGUS vote was. So I added the "OMGUS vote" sarcastic comment to my post. My vote to Ythill was defended and justified on the speed of ythill jumping over me with bad arguments (and the quick votes he had done when I initially interpreted that he was reluctant to cast quick votes, from his initial comment).

Please come with more. I am enjoying your scumhunting.

Have you all noticed how kuribo has played this game ?? He wrote a pbpa the first day. And he has not matured from that. Indeed, he has not done anything else. And he still thinks I was defending TPT...go for wikipedia and read about confirmation bias, it may help you before you grow old in the chair...

Another thing that find quite surprising is that this town has become a bit lazy lately. Again. And Nureins is the center of the universe. Well, not difficult to imagine. I wrote 214 posts. You can find connections to everyone. You can find minor details for sure.

Ill claim. Im a newbie player. Buh. Im tired of your arguments. Ill use my newbie card not to proceed with stupidities. So I claim, im newbie, i dont know what im doing, blablablabla (SARCASM)

[Simenon]

Simenon: Do you have any changed feelings today? What do you think about the current situation and who are your suspects / what do you think about the people with votes on them?

No, I really don't. I'm dismayed that it seems very few players (I can only think of Goat and kuribo) are actually examining what the cause of the Darox lynch was. These players are trying to avoid responsibility at all costs. It's sad.

I'm close to voting nuriens.

[Erratus Apathos]

Vote Count

nureins: (4) kuribo, Jahudo, Ythill, Darox
Jahudo: (1) nureins
Simenon: (1) Cass
Ythill: (1) sirdanilot

Not voting: Goatrevolt, Ectomancer, Simenon

[Ectomancer]

Quick response:

Lots of people said: "Blah blah blah, you cant do this, you cant do that"

I'm directing the cop and the Vig/SK. You'll just have to deal with it. You want more answers? I'm not interested in providing them. Lynch Nureins.

vote Nureins

Someone said that should be L-1. Get on with it.

[Simenon]

It ain't.

Vote nuriens

That's

L-1.

[Goatrevolt]

It ain't.

Vote nuriens

That's

L-1.

Nope, that's L-0.

I just started my review on Cass, I'll post the little I have in twilight:

Cass:

Posts 17-18 between habitang/Cass actually would suggest that they are not scum together. The "remember me Cass, yes I do" thing seems unlikely for two scum to say to each other, especially if they've had time to communicate pre-game.

And that's all so far. I was hoping to review nureins before lynching him, but I got lazy and kept putting it off. It may be worth it anyway depending on his flip.

[Goatrevolt]

Quick response:

Lots of people said: "Blah blah blah, you cant do this, you cant do that"

I'm directing the cop and the Vig/SK. You'll just have to deal with it. You want more answers? I'm not interested in providing them. Lynch Nureins

Actually, no you're wrong. It has nothing to do with you directing the cop, it has everything to do with reasons why, which you haven't provided.

I want to know why you think the cop should investigate Kuribo. I want to know why you said Darox was going to die. I don't want to hear some lame strawman of an excuse and have you brush it off.

[Simenon]

That is unfortunate.

[Erratus Apathos]

Final Vote Count

nureins: (6) kuribo, Jahudo, Ythill, Darox, Ectomancer, Simenon

Jahudo: (1) nureins
Simenon: (1) Cass
Ythill: (1) sirdanilot

Not voting: Goatrevolt

And so this time, it was nureins's turn to fearfully count down the fleeting seconds of his life. He wished upon a star that the crowd from last night's affair wouldn't turn up and demand so unmerciful a death, but unfortunately for him, giant flaming gas balls don't care much for the plight of tiny sacks of meat millions of light-years away. The cruel encore would go on as planned.

Shackled to the stage just as Darox had been, nureins was similarly introduced by the executioner. "This gentleman on the wall is nureins. And in just minutes, you will witness his termination! Now normally, our victims die with a look of horror or sometimes disgust. But we thought for once, we'd let one die with a smile on his face..." Upon hearing a move towards compassion, the fans of cruelty were on the verge of rioting. Only one instance of violence occurred though, that being the executioner slyly pulling a dart from his pocket and throwing it directly into nureins's chin. He barely saw it coming, and good thing too, since his instinct would have been to open his mouth in shock, causing the dart to pierce his throat. The executioner produced a bag full of darts and placed them, one by one, into nureins's face. This direct approach was less gruesome, and therefore less popular, than the thrown dart, but not by a whole lot as you might imagine. Nureins wasn't doing any imagining, so much as bleeding.

The executioner eventually stepped aside to show off the smile he was planning on leaving on nureins's face - formed of the plastic fletching, the smile was lacking only the eyes. There was a short pause to give nureins a moment to realize this fact as well as the planned method of eye addition, but who would've guessed it, he wasn't able to see into the future with a dozen or so darts lodged in his face. Then he wasn't able to see period. The poke in the left eye caused him to faint, but the poke in the right eye woke him back up.

For a few seconds, anyways. Sure enough, nureins no longer being among the living. At least he was still among the smiling. The forensic scientist took a few moments to inspect the corpse, then came back with his findings.

"Nureins, as you can clearly see, was a two-faced man." One audience member slowly applauded this joke. "No, I'm being serious. Look at how shaky his blood is. It's consistent with someone who was responsible for the organization of his bank or crime family. And since we lynched the only bank CEO in town a week ago, the only reasonable conclusion is that he was the Mafia Godfather."

"Since school is out tomorrow, kid's tickets are on sale for a dollar each. Bring the whole family!"

nureins,

Mafia Godfather

, lynched Day 2.

Night 2 will end 96 hours from this post; have night actions in by then.

[Erratus Apathos]

Another morning, another blank canvas - or in this case, a blank death warrant. And yet somehow, the day's unlimited opportunities didn't excite the surviving suspects as they dreadfully approached the courthouse. The coroner was pacing outside, denying access inside until he'd built up the nerve to speak. After eternity or so, he finally began.

"Forgive me if I'm nervous, but I didn't get any sleep last night. I was awoken at one in the morning, and rushed out only to find a corpse beyond recognition. I spent the whole night trying to discover not only who but what he was. None of his few remaining features matched any of yours, and all of his systems are unlike anything I've ever seen. I called every accomplished pathologist in the world, frantically looking for clues leading to his job. Only one could help, as he was also a neurosurgeon and noted that the deceased's neural patterns were completely unpredictable. It took me hours to figure out what that meant, but finally I realized he must be a jester. I never figured out who it was though, so I'll just ask you to help me out here. Go on in, the corpse is sitting down again."

And sitting down again it was - dressed in full jester regalia.

"Oh jeez, I can't believe I missed that," the coroner sheepishly confessed as it finally hit him. Someone slowly and fearfully walked towards the fallen fool, peeling down the harlequin's mask at the slowest possible speed that could still reasonably be considered movement. Finally, the face was revealed to be... pacman281292?

"Gotcha!" exclaimed the coroner, giggling uncontrollably. "I'm just fuckin' with you, nobody actually died last night." As everyone checked to confirm that all nine of them were indeed there, the Lord of Justice sighed and buried his face in his palm. He then got up to make an announcement, face still in palm, "Look, I'll be honest. I already know who's guilty. In fact, I've known the whole time. I'm only putting you all through this because the graveyard industry is paying me to. And if I don't deliver more carcasses, they'll take mine. So to encourage you all to kill one another, I'll remind you that there's nine of you and only eight... uhhh.... only eight... just die already."

It is now Day 3. Nine alive means five to lynch.

Not voting: Ythill, sirdanilot, Goatrevolt, kuribo, Darox, Ectomancer, Simenon, Jahudo, Cass

[Goatrevolt]

Sirdan, who did you protect last night?

[Simenon]

VOTE CASS

(guys we should lynch cass

like right now)

[Simenon]

WHO DO I WANNA LYNCH

WE'LL FINISH THIS GAME IN A PINCH

LET'S GIVING LYNCHING TOWN A PASS

LET'S GO AHEAD AND LYNCH A CASS

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CASS LYNCH


GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO CASS LYNCH

CASS LYNCH WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Ythill]

Calm down, Sim. There's no reason to hurry. If you're a cop with a guilty, say it explicitly. We can lynch her today and you tomorrow if you're lying.

I am a tracker. Unless a townie who protected kuribo or RBed sirdan counterclaims right now, sirdan is confirmed doc. Either way, kuribo is confirmed town.

Cass targeted nobody N1, but that doesn't mean she's innocent.

[Ythill]

...in case you didn't get the hint, sirdan targeted kuribo last night.

[Ectomancer]

Hmmm. Let's ponder this a bit shall we? I have information that needs sorted out as well. The question now is who reveals what and when?
It's time to contemplate a mass claim and sort out all the sordid details.

Anyone else in?

[Ythill]

/in (obviously)

Sirdan should be able confirm that I am either the last scum or the tracker, because otherwise I would not know his target.

[Jahudo]

I'm on board for the mass claim. It looks like we really need to figure out what's been happening at night.

@Simenon: Cass is town, by the way.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm fine with a mass claim.

[kuribo]

THIS IS WHAT I LIKE TO CALL MY TOLD YOU SO DANCE.

errr, I mean, yeah, mass claim sounds good.