Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress [Game Over]

[Lukewarm]

When you originally asked me, I was thinking more about imaginality's 691, not 971.

[Tanner]

Tanner, I thought you wanted to jam on some stuff? I'm still around

mmm, there is one more thing i did specifically have in mind, but i'm mulling over if i need both you and imaginality to be around or just you.

okay, i think you disagreed with me on my idea that the wall should go first. you want keep, right? if it were up to you, who votes whom there?

[imaginality]

i think it's likely baltar is townie too. 11, 49, and 57 are obviously angling to go to the same location as me. he knows how paranoid i get of him and how i'm sometimes prone to think he's scum for most bullshit reasons, see that pick your poison game. so unless he's the same petty asshole i am, he's probably town.

this is a post that i myself did write a week ago i GUESS

i'm starting to wonder why did i even /in into this game, considering i utterly hate lylos as town and have never won one when i was the deciding vote. i think i might really be a masochist.

Going to the gate means you don't have to do that

do you remember what the idea was behind this post?

These posts are interesting since they show you have a +town read of VP for wanting to be at the same location as you. So VP could have taken that into account when we decided the locations.

Would scum!Baltar really want to place himself at the gate with him + imaginality + miselim bait, and be foreced to IC either imaginality or miselim bait over Tanner?

Yeah, that scenario sounds way easier. I would just IC imaginality and then get the easier player tossed. How is that not a way easier scenario than going into a situation with someone who regularly grills me in games where I am town?

I'd also note here that VP first proposed me+him+DArby/Pav, Tanner was just listed as an alternative. And from a scum!VP perspective DArby/Pav is very much mislim bait if town. So if DArby/Pav is town, VP's first option was what he himself says is a 'way easier scenario' and his backup option was a player who he knows will town read him for being at the same location. Flipping Keep first will confirm if DArby/Pav is town or not.

[imaginality]

Tanner, I thought you wanted to jam on some stuff? I'm still around

mmm, there is one more thing i did specifically have in mind, but i'm mulling over if i need both you and imaginality to be around or just you.

okay, i think you disagreed with me on my idea that the wall should go first. you want keep, right? if it were up to you, who votes whom there?

I'm still around. Do you want me to answer this also?

[Tanner]

oh shit, both of you are here. i'll start typing up what had in mind.

[Tanner]

971 does not have a VP case in it, it is an assosiative post - But I did really like imaginality's associative points in here. I found myself nodding along to all of it, and the final conclusion matched about my own reads. Ari town, pav scum in the keep. Implo town at the wall.

that is what i wanted you to look at - i know they're gonna call each other scum, i wanted you to tell me what you think about their points on people other than their 1v1 buddy.

now that you mention it, baltar's cases aren't really associate-based. except for that other thing that he said he'll present and i can't remember right now if he has or hasn't done that because memory of a goldfish, but

[Tanner]

ok, i don't think he did.

[Lukewarm]

I'm not even super interested in making a giant case about him because it's kind of pointless. This is why I'm saying people need to look at actual actions in the game and who is trying to effectively solve. Motive is the guiding light here.

You have both presented scum and town cases across games. Like I mentioned to tanner, I kinda planned on doing a hard sort of the two of you once the wall flipped. Or, if at any point we started leaning towards the keep flipping first sitting down to do an if x then y post based on how the keep flipped. (but he asked me for my thoughts right now)

Pre flips I am leaning you>imaginality but it is not a hard read. You are looking pretty unpartnered with Ari here, so my if x then y post would probably say that an ari scum flip = town baltar. Don't think that a Pav scum flip would sway my reads in the Gate tho

[VP Baltar]

ok, i don't think he did.

I have not. Going to get to that shortly.

[Aristeia]

but if Luke is scum I want Implosion/VPB to die.

was this ever explained *why* you thought so?

It's not just about the fact that Luke is scum that makes me think Implo is scum with him.

It is how Implosion is approaching the Keep in general.

I can see why he would think Luke is the towniest but I can't quite get to how he thinks Pavo is townier than me or that I am asking questions performatively.

It's an extremely uncharitable reading of my questioning of VPB. One that he can't back up when I dig into the details of exactly why he finds my questioning to be scummy.

When i describe my motives and reasoning he says those are logical and sound but its the lack of read updates that is scummy.

He says I should be updating my reads based on my questioning but when I ask him when this should have happened he seems to back off so I don't think he actually took the time to read thru my dialogue with vpb and actually evaluate whether I should be satsified with VPB's answers.

This is important in the context of Luke-scum because if Luke is scum here, Implosion can't just say "luke is the towniest" and let that stand. He also has to shade me as the scummiest in the Keep.

The reason behind this is how Implo thinks the Keep should be played; he thinks the town should decide who is scummiest and make that person vote. So if Pavo is collectively decided to be the scummiest, there is a real chance Pavo votes me instead of Luke and that will result in a town win despite all of Luke's efforts. Whereas if I am shaded as the scummiest he thinks I will vote for Luke as I am townreading Luke much more than Pavo.


For the VPB part, if Implo/Luke are scum, I doubt Imaginality ends up at the Gate - Baltar is a stronger 1v1 player than Imaginality and I think it would make much more sense for a Imag/Luke/Implo team to send either Luke or Implo to Gate for 1v1 rather than Imag.

Also if Luke flips scum, his slip about Imaginality being confirmed town from Baltar's POV would feel much more like a real scum slip.

Also the reasons for Implo to townread VPB feel extremely weak,

when called out he says something about tunneling on the dumb tell which doesn't make sense to me as you had just said VPB fake dumbtelled in a previous game.

When he said he townread the bravado, I asked him for meta and he said it wasn't a meta read which doesn't make sense to me. How do you townread personality if you don't have meta that says personality is AI for the person?

[VP Baltar]

okay, i think you disagreed with me on my idea that the wall should go first. you want keep, right? if it were up to you, who votes whom there?

My instinct is to make the other two vote luke. Ari has said she would vote there if you asked. I think she was playing a game of chicken.

[Tanner]

i think i was mulling over some complex luke+someone scumcase based on associates but at this moment i don't remember what i was even thinking there, i should be writing these things down

[Tanner]

He says I should be updating my reads based on my questioning but when I ask him when this should have happened he seems to back off

can you link what specifically you're referring to here?

[Tanner]

Do you want me to answer this also?

sure, why not. up to you, who votes whom in the keep?

[Aristeia]

And yeah I get that you have reasons for asking these questions. The point is just that I haven't felt like I've been able to clearly see that you're actually updating your read of the gamestate in response to them, rather than just asking them for the sake of doing stuff.

Do you feel any of the responses to my questions have been satisfactory enough to warrant me changing my reads?

[imaginality]

I feel surest about Ari being town and Luke has said he thinks Ari's town so if it's entirely my call I'd get Luke to vote Ari.
If we do the 'get the scummiest player to choose who to vote' thing I'd get Pav to choose between the other two.

[Aristeia]

my line of questioning to VPB:

Me: why should tanner be able to townread you?
vpb: because I am doing things with a protown mindset.
Me: What is something you've done with a protown mindset?
Vpb: my sort is kickass and makes me obvtown
Me: Explain how.


Tell me at which point I should have been satsified with his "answers"

[Tanner]

if i really were to meme this game i'd say that in the keep, y'all should vote Pav, Actually

but the issue is, i do still feel some little bit of being not terribad at reading pav, and right now he's not posted enough Quality to make me think he's townie

[Pavowski]

I feel surest about Ari being town and Luke has said he thinks Ari's town so if it's entirely my call I'd get Luke to vote Ari.
If we do the 'get the scummiest player to choose who to vote' thing I'd get Pav to choose between the other two.

If I get forced to vote, I'm polling the room and voting with the majority. I am not gonna be responsible for blowing the Keep when I'm really struggling with these two.

You can hold me to this.

[Pavowski]

if i really were to meme this game i'd say that in the keep, y'all should vote Pav, Actually

but the issue is, i do still feel some little bit of being not terribad at reading pav, and right now he's not posted enough Quality to make me think he's townie

Trust your instincts, you handsome devil

[numberQ]

Go offsite for one day and come back to almost 10 unread pages, wee. Gonna try to catch up, but is there anything in particular to focus on?

[Tanner]

ok i just realized that i've been staring at this game for the last 3 hours and that i uhhh forgot to eat dinner lmao i'm gonna do that now

i have the thing typed up in my notes so when baltar does whatever it was that i asked him to do and when my gate comrades both say they're here, i'm gonna post it

after typing it up i realized it makes absolutely no sense but i am not known for making cases that make sense

[imaginality]

I'm not like, clicking refresh every minute, but I'm here or hereabouts for the next 12 hours or so.

(also if anyone else has questions for me they also want a quick answer to, today is a good day for that)

[Lukewarm]

if i really were to meme this game i'd say that in the keep, y'all should vote Pav, Actually

but the issue is, i do still feel some little bit of being not terribad at reading pav, and right now he's not posted enough Quality to make me think he's townie

I am gonna need a hell of a town case on Pav before this is considered lol

I think if you said that one of us should vote pav that, atm at least, I would hope to get my own vote in voting for Ari before she logged on and got a chance to vote Pav.

[Pavowski]

if i really were to meme this game i'd say that in the keep, y'all should vote Pav, Actually

but the issue is, i do still feel some little bit of being not terribad at reading pav, and right now he's not posted enough Quality to make me think he's townie

I am gonna need a hell of a town case on Pav before this is considered lol

I think if you said that one of us should vote pav that, atm at least, I would hope to get my own vote in voting for Ari before she logged on and got a chance to vote Pav.

What.

In what world does Ari, after you have voted for her, do anything besides self-hammer?

Luke this is weird and vindictive and it will not stand, man