Micro 1042: Meme Wars | Fin!

[Pavowski]

i want dwlee to post

Also agree entirely.

[Val89]

the fact that I voted pooky while pooky was on e-2

You didn't. You were already voting Pooky, as was pointed out at the time (581).

then urged a player who has since flipped town via NK to hammer

You didn't. You said literally nothing to prism, who is the only "flipped town via NK". In fact, you said literally nothing to anyone at any time between your initial vote and the flip, apart from the fake vote with a naked "E-1".

It took me all of ten seconds to confirm both of those as straight-up lies by opening your ISO. Who do you think you are fooling here? I know there was a palpable sense of apathy around in the later part of D1, but come on...

[Esooa]

Val is probably always town because of the argument with Pooky, but someone can confirm that if they want. Meg posts were towny yesterday imo, only slightly though, but good today, STD is always town, Pav is p much always town, Dwlee is fine.

In short, I'm completely fine with killing Buspray whenever people want to

[Dwlee99]

How am I fine wtf

[Esooa]

it is worth considering why Prism of all people was killed, though that reason I don't know.

I'd also say that Buspray lost WIM to post immediately after voting Pooky, which, as a wolf, is them feeling like they have to resign themselves to voting a partner and not liking it. Which I think is a good explanation

[Pavowski]

it is worth considering why Prism of all people was killed, though that reason I don't know.

I'd also say that Buspray lost WIM to post immediately after voting Pooky, which, as a wolf, is them feeling like they have to resign themselves to voting a partner and not liking it. Which I think is a good explanation

I also didn't love Bugspray's votes on Pooky with time winding down, but you think scum was bussing their PR?

I know bugs made this point already but it's giving me pause

[Esooa]

people bus

there's other things I can say like the fact that pooky didn't do much to save themselves but it doesn't truly matter to me, I just don't care about if someone 'would' have bussed or whatever, but whether they're wolfy or not, and I think bugspray is. I also just don't care for things like "ACTUALLY my e-1 on Pooky was a bait all along, and not something I just did on accident"

[Val89]

you think scum was bussing their PR?

Bussing to me would be if bugspray had argued for Pookies lim, but notably they didn't do that - they voted Pooky as the second vote on the wagon after StD had made a naked vote, giving no justification for doing so except, seemingly, that Pooky said something like "can we just lim someone"?.

I don't think that was a wagon that the scum team was expecting to result in a lim. I think it was part of the "TSTBS" play it looks to me that bugspray has been going for since the open - perhaps, given I said I had an independant townread on three, but was very suspicious of the timing of bugspray attention grabbing Esooa posting just as a three wagon was getting traction earlier in the day, it was intended to give me and others like me further reason not to suspect Pooky. It's very likely that vote would have drawn some attention in a 'why in earth are you voting there' sort of way, rather than a 'ohh, good vote' reaction, and I think it's probable we would have been discussing that rather than wagoning pooky had the bear not used my questioning of their Esooa read to go all in on securing my mislim and essentially made it a 1v1 I suspect they wrongly thought they would win.

You might have a point if bugspray had been arguing for that lim and had given reason for people to join it, but they did the opposite and it smells to me like a distancing vote that went wrong, rather than a concentrated bus.

[Pavowski]

people bus

there's other things I can say like the fact that pooky didn't do much to save themselves but it doesn't truly matter to me, I just don't care about if someone 'would' have bussed or whatever, but whether they're wolfy or not, and I think bugspray is. I also just don't care for things like "ACTUALLY my e-1 on Pooky was a bait all along, and not something I just did on accident"

I mean obviously people bus. I just don't think scum busses *in that way* and *at that moment*.

I agree that the slot gives me scum vibes but the vote, for me, blunts rather than sharpens those vibes

[Pavowski]

You might have a point if bugspray had been arguing for that lim and had given reason for people to join it, but they did the opposite and it smells to me like a distancing vote that went wrong, rather than a concentrated bus

Bugspray was there to reinforce the Pooky vote (the weird e-1 post) so presumably they could have switched if in fact the situation were "going wrong" as you say here.

I very much doubt given Bugspray's posts in thread that they were simultaneously in the scum PT saying "sorry I have to bus you here, it'll destroy my cred if I don't"

(Because what cred?)

Not impossible, I'll grant, but it doesn't seem likely.

[Pavowski]

Esooa is mech cleared by STD if STD is legit. I may be alone in this, but I think Bugspray's Pooky vote is clearing. Val is probably just town.

For me scum is in Dwlee or Meg.

VOTE: Dwlee

And I'll check back in a bit

[Val89]

Bugspray was there to reinforce the Pooky vote (the weird e-1 post) so presumably they could have switched if in fact the situation were "going wrong" as you say here.

Your argument as to why the bugspray weird e-1 non-vote is clearing is because scum wouldn't want Pooky, who was a PR, dead, right? That's the vibes I get from 705 and the ilk.

You might have a point if bugspray did indeed 'reinforce' (and I'm taking that to mean 'draw attention to and make more likley to pass') the Pooky vote, but, lets remind ourselves of reaction to that post:

Spoiler: Reception to the bugspray "vote"

I could vote Bugspray for sure, could vote Meg. Could vote Dwlee. Don't want to vote anyone else

like look at this

I would flash wagon bugspray off that sure

Whether he was already voting Pooky or not, bugspray's vote there is no bueno

tempted to switch

Looks pretty clear to me that if anything was in danger of derailing that Pooky wagon at the last minutue, it was that vote.

[Pavowski]

Man I was gonna leave it, but I just can't help myself when Val calls me out.

By this rationale, scum!bugspray was attempting to derail a Pooky wagon by ... voting Pooky, appearing scummy, and getting wagoned himself?

Or have I horribly misunderstood you here?

(I said "reinforce" because my understanding was bugs was already voting Pooky when he made the e-1 post, but I'm mobile posting right now and can't read back to confirm that for suresies)

[MegAzumarill]

After some consideration I have decided that is is probably best for Pav to out their result.
It's more information at essentially no cost because a power role/clear always dies tonight anyway (StD or Pav)

If you do not wish to out (or targeted Esooa) you can decide not to but I think it's valuable

@pav

[Val89]

I said "reinforce" because my understanding was bugs was already voting Pooky when he made the e-1 post

Correct. Bugspray voted Pooky as the second vote on the wagon, on obviously shitty justification that is really no justification at all, following an essentially naked vote by STD. Thereafter, there was no input on that wagon, or the game more widely, until that fake post. Bugspray straight up lied about casting the E-2 vote. It appears that way on the final VC because there were unvotes and revotes in the meantime, but they cast the vote on Pooky second on the wagon and essentially dipped from the game until that fake-vote we are discussing.

That is was the E-2 vote was the first provable lie. The second was that they encouraged Prism to hammer Pooky. They did nothing of the sort. You have to ask yourself, why make that fake e-1 post the focus here, and secondly, why tell those lies, given they are so easily falsifiable? I think its obvious that a) there is a narrative being sold that the fake E-1 is somehow clearing, and b) if nobody buys that, then there is the old TSTBS standby - why would scum!bugspray draw so much attention to themselves, afterall? I note you (Pav) have been the one to endorse the TSTBS perspective, and I think if we are in a 2 scum world, which I think is more likley overall, you are being a bit of a useful idiot here and walking exactly into this scumplay.

Spoiler: Pav on bugspray

I would really like to scumread bugspray but like

I just ... can't picture scum drawing attention to themselves with this weirdness

But yet again I find myself thinking "why does scum!bugspray do weird shit like this" and in a more existential sense "why does anybody do anything like this"

I also didn't love Bugspray's votes on Pooky with time winding down, but you think scum was bussing their PR?

I very much doubt given Bugspray's posts in thread that they were simultaneously in the scum PT saying "sorry I have to bus you here, it'll destroy my cred if I don't"

(Because what cred?)

By this rationale, scum!bugspray was attempting to derail a Pooky wagon by ... voting Pooky, appearing scummy, and getting wagoned himself?

Intentional or not, the effect of bugspray intervention was not to make a Pooky lim more likley, which appears to be the logical plank around which the "well, Pooky was a PR, so that makes bugspray less likley to be scum" argument is built. It could well have been intentional - even if it didn't work there is the positive effect in that we are having this debate now, and there was no real downside in that it didn't help flip Pooky - whether you think bugspray intended it or not, I think the posts I've quoted, and you are welcome to go re-read yourself, show the actual outcome was in fact to almost cause the derailment of that wagon. I personally do think bugspray knows how scummy they are being, however, and are playing into that.

I understand why bugspray is trying to tell us that one post torpedos the scum!bugspray theory, and forget everything else they've done, and I understand why they are willing to openly misrepresent the circumstances around that post to do so. I'm not so sure why you would buy that, though. To consider it in anyway clearing, or even a tick in the town!bugspray coloumn, is bad logic, and I know people disagree on reads but to me it's patently obviously bad. You said yourself at the time that vote was "no beuno". What did you mean by that?

[bugspray]

people bus

there's other things I can say like the fact that pooky didn't do much to save themselves but it doesn't truly matter to me, I just don't care about if someone 'would' have bussed or whatever, but whether they're wolfy or not, and I think bugspray is. I also just don't care for things like "ACTUALLY my e-1 on Pooky was a bait all along, and not something I just did on accident"

it literally was bait. i do a fake e-1 like that basically every game I play

[bugspray]

val this is a question for you:
When I flip green and it turns out you are completely wrong and made a stupid gameplay decision to ignore the reasons why I cannot possibly be scum what will you do?

[Val89]

val this is a question for you:
When I flip green and it turns out you are completely wrong and made a stupid gameplay decision to ignore the reasons why I cannot possibly be scum what will you do?

You would have to show me the reasons you can't possibly be scum before I can make any decision to ignore them.

If you are hoping to AtE me out of pushing for your lim today, I wouldn't bother. I think you are flipping red, and if I am wrong about that, then the fact I was right about Pooky will shield my fragile ego enough I won't have a breakdown and be unable to continue playing, I am sure.

You might have a chance of persuading me with a solid explaination as to how your play this game makes sense from a town perspective, but that sort of bullshit won't get you anywhere.

We can start with your 715 if you like. If you are saying a fake e-1 is something you do in basically every game you play, why are you representating as AI elsewhere?

What town motivation I was there for lying about which position on the wagon you cast your vote, and what you did or didn't say to Prism?

Let's start with those. I'm willing to listen, because you will likley either persuade me I'm wrong, or else convict yourself and make this a lot easier, just as Pooky did.

[Save The Dragons]

dwlee and bugspray are both tasty options

[Dwlee99]

Yum yum

[bugspray]

What town motivation I was there for lying about which position on the wagon you cast your vote, and what you did or didn't say to Prism?

When did I lie about whatever the fuck you're talking about?

[Dwlee99]

Answer is more complicated than bugs or me probably

[bugspray]

and the reason my fake e-1 is town indicative is because it was on scum pr and i was encouraging a slot which has since flipped green to hammer

[bugspray]

in what world is that something scum actually wants?

[Dwlee99]

Prism
Save The Dragons
Val89
MegAzumarill

I think final scum is in here

Feel free to narrow it down more and then ring me