Open 847 - Trust Fall [Game Over]

[chavela]

I don't agree with

Meuh

's 288. I feel the exact opposite - we should avoid scums getting out from the game at all as the fact that two players are desperate to win someone's trust and get out from the game will be more visible.

I don't think I can fully trust

Meuh

yet.

wait actually hmm

[Pavowski]

Oh Andante replaced. Hi Ydrasse

i didn’t ignore this hi either i read it but was waiting for follow up

There was no follow up, I was checking the thread quicklike at work... Be home in a bit

[chavela]

I don't agree with

Meuh

's 288. I feel the exact opposite - we should avoid scums getting out from the game at all as the fact that two players are desperate to win someone's trust and get out from the game will be more visible.

I don't think I can fully trust

Meuh

yet.

wait actually hmm

nah pretty sure this makes sense and is consistent with meuh's earlier thoughts like this one:

Also, we should also particularly watch out for pocketing/duos, right? Cause scum could be scumread by everyone but strongly trusted by one person, and poof that player is a one-way ticket to victory.

like in 288 she was responding directly to norwegianboyee saying it would be better if mafia leave the game later rather than sooner, and disagreeing with that,

she wasn't saying it would be better if the mafia leave the game sooner rather than not at all, which i think everyone would agree is less optimal

and really if trying to optimize the answer is really kinda neither or both

like you do want to keep towns you are sure about in the game as it is harder to make correct pairs as the game goes on so in the first pairing it is okay to want a slightly less than certain to be trust offered and such, but have to take into account level of accepted risk - like just because you would take on a small amount of risk, maybe it is warm outside and you have fizzy drink or hairspray in your bag, does not mean you should take on an extreme amount of risk, say applying the hairspray near an open flame

[chavela]

though meuh's post does make a weird assumption of

the mafia leaving the game in general

and kinda has that time traveler element to it

of almost looking back at actions

as step by step later is better than sooner

because! later could become never but sooner cannot if it has already happened

[chavela]

meuh is saying a lot but not saying a lot that matters for all the words as in there’s nothing there that feels concrete at all and some retrospective rather than being forward thinking

I don't agree with

Meuh

's 288. I feel the exact opposite - we should avoid scums getting out from the game at all as the fact that two players are desperate to win someone's trust and get out from the game will be more visible.

I don't think I can fully trust

Meuh

yet.

though meuh's post does make a weird assumption of

the mafia leaving the game in general

and kinda has that time traveler element to it

hmhmhm

[NorwegianboyEE]

though meuh's post does make a weird assumption of

the mafia leaving the game in general

and kinda has that time traveler element to it

of almost looking back at actions

as step by step later is better than sooner

because! later could become never but sooner cannot if it has already happened

Hanging out with you when high must be fun.
I just wanna get drunk and discuss philosophy with you yo.

[chavela]

PEdit: posted the same thing as as chavela again oops

though i guess i should also note that some of these felt a bit like they were being leaned into

[Pavowski]

though meuh's post does make a weird assumption of

the mafia leaving the game in general

and kinda has that time traveler element to it

of almost looking back at actions

as step by step later is better than sooner

because! later could become never but sooner cannot if it has already happened

I like this one from chav

Last time I played this, scum won in a flawless victory. Two relatively quick exits.

Going deep is not required in this setup and patience will pay off for town, especially if we get a few good trusts done. Diminishing options will create the pressure on scum

[Meuh]

I don't agree with

Meuh

's 288. I feel the exact opposite - we should avoid scums getting out from the game at all as the fact that two players are desperate to win someone's trust and get out from the game will be more visible.

I don't think I can fully trust

Meuh

yet.

I could make a trust offer to

chavela

tbf. This sounds like slot who has an exceptionally low chance of being scum. But would they reciprocate? Given the fact that they have two trust offers already and don't seem to keen on even considering any of them, I doubt it.

..then again, I don't see myself trusting neither

bugspray

nor

humaneatingmonkey

so far.

Okay so these 2 posts feel scummy.

Whether deliberately or not, 663 pretty clearly misses the point of 288, in which I was talking about a specific theoretical from Norwee which assumes scum exiting the game at all. Greeting could've quoted Norwee's 283 and ended up with a point that makes just as much sense, since Norwee, in this post, also assumes the instance in which a scum player exits the game at one point.
The train of logic Greeting supposedly uses to end up thinking I'm scum doesn't really make sense to me.
It would have to be "Meuh suggests we should purposely eliminate a scum member" (which I pretty clearly did not suggest) -> Meuh is scummy
But the opposite line of logic, made in bad faith, does make sense. I want to scumread Meuh (or perhaps anyone) -> hey, this post seems like something I could point to as scummy
Maybe Greeting genuinely didn't get my post but I don't understand how they could end up doing that but not see anything wrong with the theoretical Norwee was proposing in the first place?

Also, the fixation on what proposal to make from Greeting in 664 just feels off. I don't know why town!Greeting would be so interested on where to place his vote. It's hard not to read as if he's looking to get out of here ASAP. They kinda justify it in 666 and 667 but this still doesn't make sense to me. "getting out eventually with someone whom I am very sure (ideally 100%) is town is my priority for town to win the game." is apparently the thought process behind it, so that Greeting is thinking long-term. However, 664 feels oriented on the short term, where to place his trust vote

right now

, or at least

today

.
This approach of narrowing down the options for pairings has me really uneasy, I can't say I've placed much mind on the pairings so far, unless it was brought up by someone else. (But I guess the day end is drawing nearer, maybe there's a need to shift a bit more from individual reading and more to forming an actual pairing?)
Perhaps Greeting is just approaching the game differently than me and has a different mentality, but I just don't really get it if he is.

[Meuh]

I'm not really sure how I'm even supposed to read Enchant. Their entire post history seems to be coated in a layer of irony and it makes it confusing to really get to the intent behind anything. Probably much easier to read with actual experience playing with them before?
221, 462 I kind of like? Hints to actual reads being formed I suppose, 531 and 533 as a sequence also paint Enchant well I guess? That kind of idea to trick scum might not come to mind to mafia!Enchant
The decision to insta-trust still seems wrong to me, even if no one would accept the offer regardless of alignment.

@Enchant

could you elaborate on 662? I'm not sure what point you're making there.

Also

@Norwee

did you ever elaborate on why you think Enchant is town? I'm reading through your ISO but all I see in form of explanation is that they

would

YOLOvote here. Your insight would be nice as someone who's played with them before

[Meuh]

i think she just likes Meuh too

[Meuh]

though meuh's post does make a weird assumption of

the mafia leaving the game in general

and kinda has that time traveler element to it

of almost looking back at actions

as step by step later is better than sooner

because! later could become never but sooner cannot if it has already happened

I make that assumption because the post I'm responding to does, it specifically discusses whether later/sooner is the best time for mafia to leave
There's no reason for me not to assume a mafia's leaving when the two options that had just been brought up both involve a mafia member leaving the game

[chavela]

I

do you

think they are trying to lead me to scumreading you?

or at least,

to not townreading you enough

for me to trust you or suggest you be trusted?

[NorwegianboyEE]

If that is referring to me then i can say with certainty that i as scum would not pick fights with someone i’d read as an highly capable town and suggest they should not be trusted.
I’d much prefer when playing this as scum to sort them as an slot that needs to be pocketed or to avoid confronting. Certainly not "make Chavela think they are not to be trusted"
My previous game with them i think i also voiced big concerns on Meuh. Now you could point this as an reason for me to assume that i am wrongly being paranoid about town!Meuh again for no reason. But that is not the point, it’s that i believe Meuh would be capable of emulating their town play at an high level as mafia. Because they strike me as that sort of tempered, highly professional player.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If i’m wrong there then Meuh is free to make their case of why. But i was always going to voice this paranoia nonetheless.

[chavela]

If i’m wrong there then Meuh is free to make their case of why. But i was always going to voice this paranoia nonetheless.

was not referring to you specifically

(or even generally really though i didn’t want to artificially narrow it in case meuh felt that you were)

just that it felt like most of the push towards meuh has come after i said i was townreading her even though most of her posts came before

though ydrasse gets a pass for this she already had +partner equity with pav from earlier to me and pav is also sharing concerns about meuh

and greeting as well

so mostly i was wondering how meuh was viewing all of this

but trying to ask in a way that didn’t fill in potential answers

[humaneatingmonkey]

a hot take with a chance to burn myself is i think enchants town. this is mostly from experience

would Enchant have done what he did as scum? what stands out as town-indicative to you?

[Meuh]

If that is referring to me then i can say with certainty that i as scum would not pick fights with someone i’d read as an highly capable town and suggest they should not be trusted.
I’d much prefer when playing this as scum to sort them as an slot that needs to be pocketed or to avoid confronting. Certainly not "make Chavela think they are not to be trusted"
My previous game with them i think i also voiced big concerns on Meuh. Now you could point this as an reason for me to assume that i am wrongly being paranoid about town!Meuh again for no reason. But that is not the point, it’s that i believe Meuh would be capable of emulating their town play at an high level as mafia. Because they strike me as that sort of tempered, highly professional player.

I don't tend to like going too in depth on past gameplay for analysis, but here's my only scum game on site, if you wanna compare notes, here it is: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86564
Already brought up this game but if your perception of me hinges on the idea that I'm particularly great at scum, it feels relevant to mention again.
I think I can fake tone pretty well, but actual analysis and thought process? Less so.
viewtopic.php?p=12763845#p12763845
This post is the one that killed me, my analysis was unnatural and I let it slip that I was PR hunting (to be fair, I was right about the mason pair! )

Ultimately I think I'm probably a decent scum player? But I only have like 72 hours being scum on this site since I got limmed prematurely D1 so I don't know very well how I even play scum

[Meuh]

If i’m wrong there then Meuh is free to make their case of why. But i was always going to voice this paranoia nonetheless.

was not referring to you specifically

(or even generally really though i didn’t want to artificially narrow it in case meuh felt that you were)

just that it felt like most of the push towards meuh has come after i said i was townreading her even though most of her posts came before

though ydrasse gets a pass for this she already had +partner equity with pav from earlier to me and pav is also sharing concerns about meuh

and greeting as well

so mostly i was wondering how meuh was viewing all of this

but trying to ask in a way that didn’t fill in potential answers

For reference, in my mind; initially "they" was referring to Greeting, since I had just made a whole post on him, but then I thought maybe you were just kinda referring to the general shift that happened

[NorwegianboyEE]

How much experience off-site if i may ask?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also i just realized how annoying it could be to have a scumread in this game.
You basically just have to let them hang around and hope no town accepts or tries to trust them. And if you ever get out of game yourself then they might fool other players that aren’t you. -_-

[Meuh]

I

do you

think they are trying to lead me to scumreading you?

or at least,

to not townreading you enough

for me to trust you or suggest you be trusted?

I think it's likely, considering the way we've interacted has been pointing towards mutual trust, plus we've just had similar perspectives on the game.
Tbh early on, since to me you were the person making the most reasonable points and was generally leaning town, I kinda just sorted you in that spot in my mind I typically reserve for someone more leaderesque who I generally trust; this sort of player I tend to take their opinions for action more seriously and not question my reads too heavily on, especially until day 2.
That type of sorting doesn't really work in this setup though I guess, since our goal isn't to lim scum.

But yes, I think the combo of: me generally showing trust for you + you saying you townread me + you being an influential player + you getting 2 trusts + me being town = a big threat for scum.
If they don't act, we could end up exerting a lot of control over the game while both trusting each other, and that's a large threat to scum. I could be a townie to take to endgame and get a secure pairing with.
Scum needs to break that up and the best way to do it is to cast doubt on me. Does that mean pressure on me is inherently nefarious? No, but I do think it's pro-scum so I'm particularly worried about it; because of the position I hold in the game caused by our interactions.
If you hadn't said you townread me, I think scum would benefit much less from discrediting me, and so it'd be less suspicious to do.
In the case you're scum, the people pushing me I suppose would then look more like townies from it? But I can't imagine that being true.

[Meuh]

How much experience off-site if i may ask?

I play casual ~20 min games IRL once in a while, which is what got me into online mafia. (I guess that's werewolves and not mafia, but same difference!)

For online it's been since Jan 2020, since then I'd say I've played ~25 games off-site? All on Discord and in shorter and varying formats (day/night usually 24/24, 12/12 or 48/24 hours).

[bugspray]

whenver i try to read a post i just disassociate

[bugspray]

gonna like be gone for a bit