Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[wolframnhart]

Good news everyone! A good chunk of us are alive!

Wolf: Do you still think that poro was messing around with X? When you say that poro could "maybe" be a mafia role cop, are you saying that anyone in this game could be mafia role cop or poro specifically could be mafia role cop?

I do think that Poro was messing around with Xtoxm, and when i said maybe he could be a mafia role cop i meant that, maybe he could be, but i didn't find it that likely to vote him for it, just keep an eye on him is all and i see nothing wrong with that. I still don't get how i am being accused of setting Poro up for a lynch today, all i said was maybe he was a mafia role cop, he could very well be a town day cop, but if he was why would he out Xtoxm so quickly? If anything what he said was in jest and Xtoxm freaked out.

[Zorblag]

I can't say that I'm thrilled with how this game is going so far. Apparently Xtoxm was the SK he claimed he was. Unless there's some twist involving him later on (and that doesn't seem too likely) I'm not at all convinced just now that he was playing by rule 2.

2) Play to win, but also to have fun. See rule 1.

I take that trying to win to be something the players have all agreed to do when I'm trying to figure out the cause for their actions. For a one person faction to die that willingly (going so far as to self-hammer) the first day does not count as them playing to win. In this case he's done even more harm though. The way he's chosen not to win arbitrarily hurts the town and helps the scum despite the fact that he wasn't aligned to either.

Of course, when I say he hurt the town and helped the scum I have to be fair here. We followed his lead and went straight for the quick lynch on day one without discussion of much of anything. We got minimal posts from several people and now have to try to figure out what's going on without the benefit of interactions we would have gotten on a typical day one. We did exactly what I warned we were doing (though I didn't make nearly enough of an issue of it so I get blame for this as well.)

OK, the game seems to be dragging a bit at this point. Xtoxm doesn't seem as though he's going to be a willing tool for the town if he is a SK (which I still don't fully buy.) At this point I won't have any real issues with him getting lynched at the end of the day. On the other hand, lynching him right now means that we've gained very little information and go into the second day giving scum the advantage of initiative so let's see what we can do to talk about other things that might lead to useful information down the line.

So now, here we are in day 2. We did give initiative to the scum and they used it to take out our doc. If we're going to pull a town victory out of this we're going to have be more aware as we go forward. We've got a couple places to start from today (but not nearly as many as we should) and I'll take a look at them this afternoon and see where my suspicions lie but I'm really hoping that we don't continue to play this game like we have so far.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[farside22]

This vote count is brought to you by the moon:
Come to the moon the happies place orbiting the earth

[/color]

Zorblag 1 vote: (dukes)

Not voting:

GhostWriter
pacman281292
kloud1516
LlamaFluff
Zorblag
Jahudo
wolframnhart
Drunken Piper
Porochaz

Day 2 Deadline Nov 18th 4:00pm PST
With 10 alive it will take 6 to lynch.

[Porochaz]

I can't say that I'm thrilled with how this game is going so far. Apparently Xtoxm was the SK he claimed he was. Unless there's some twist involving him later on (and that doesn't seem too likely) I'm not at all convinced just now that he was playing by rule 2.

2) Play to win, but also to have fun. See rule 1.

I take that trying to win to be something the players have all agreed to do when I'm trying to figure out the cause for their actions. For a one person faction to die that willingly (going so far as to self-hammer) the first day does not count as them playing to win. In this case he's done even more harm though. The way he's chosen not to win arbitrarily hurts the town and helps the scum despite the fact that he wasn't aligned to either.

Of course, when I say he hurt the town and helped the scum I have to be fair here. We followed his lead and went straight for the quick lynch on day one without discussion of much of anything. We got minimal posts from several people and now have to try to figure out what's going on without the benefit of interactions we would have gotten on a typical day one. We did exactly what I warned we were doing (though I didn't make nearly enough of an issue of it so I get blame for this as well.)

OK, the game seems to be dragging a bit at this point. Xtoxm doesn't seem as though he's going to be a willing tool for the town if he is a SK (which I still don't fully buy.) At this point I won't have any real issues with him getting lynched at the end of the day. On the other hand, lynching him right now means that we've gained very little information and go into the second day giving scum the advantage of initiative so let's see what we can do to talk about other things that might lead to useful information down the line.

So now, here we are in day 2. We did give initiative to the scum and they used it to take out our doc. If we're going to pull a town victory out of this we're going to have be more aware as we go forward. We've got a couple places to start from today (but not nearly as many as we should) and I'll take a look at them this afternoon and see where my suspicions lie but I'm really hoping that we don't continue to play this game like we have so far.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I think its fair to say that when he outed himself and it was clear we wernt going to keep him alive it was all he could do. Also your last paragraph is rubbish... unfortunetly I have to rin off to uni so cant finish this post but the fact that the doc got hit I think was totally random and was done more for Gorrads seniority than anything else. We have a few leads as far as I can see and as the day goes on the game will develop further. And by the way I hope we do continue the game as we have done. We have just lynched scum on day 1. Our aim is to eliminate all mafia.

[Porochaz]

...and the SK.

[Jahudo]

I think was totally random and was done more for Gorrads seniority than anything else.

Gorrads was talking about Zoidberg being a doc more likely than a jester, and if he was a quack or a sane doc so I guess Gorrads was breadcrumbing a little bit. I didn't catch this day 1 and don't know if anyone could have from what Gorrads wrote. Maybe the kill was for his seniority, but we shouldn't rule this out.

Group: Did anyone read it as a possible breadcrumb? Do you think anyone could have understood what it meant?

[pacman281292]

hmm...

Vote: Dukes.

I didn't vote Xtoxm because his SK claim was something just incredible. He must had been very frustrated to do that and quit on that way. So, I thought that he might as well be a town role like bomb, or a weird scum trying to make a "double-bluff".
Or, still more probable; a jester.
Your vote and list of suspicions are extremely weak. And possibly this vote. But, anyways, I'm a little frustrated, and I'm going V/LA since tomorrow.

[Zorblag]

I think its fair to say that when he outed himself and it was clear we wernt going to keep him alive it was all he could do. Also your last paragraph is rubbish... unfortunetly I have to rin off to uni so cant finish this post but the fact that the doc got hit I think was totally random and was done more for Gorrads seniority than anything else. We have a few leads as far as I can see and as the day goes on the game will develop further. And by the way I hope we do continue the game as we have done. We have just lynched scum on day 1. Our aim is to eliminate all mafia.

If you don't want to say that Xtoxm wasn't playing to win that's fine. I suppose I'll allow for it being very poor play. I'm still not happy with it if that's the case. Regardless of the intention though it served to draw our attention to Xtoxm and not focus on everyone in play.

I should be clear that I don't think that the Xtoxm lynch yesterday was a bad lynch to make. I don't want us to stop lynching scum. What I do want us to do is not lynch again before we've had people talking some. We didn't apply any pressure to anyone else in any real way. You're probably right that the mafia just got lucky with a seniority kill that took out the doc; what I don't like is that they had full range of who they chose to kill without having any concerns at all about how it might look. When the scum make any kill they want (and I think they could have last night given what I saw from the first day) we aren't doing enough as a town to look at people during the day.

There are a number of people that I just don't have enough information on to have any feel for at all. Many others are just barely on the radar for me. I don't like it being the second day of the game and my not having any inclination for that many people. It's way too easy for scum to hide in a situation like this.

Gorrads was talking about Zoidberg being a doc more likely than a jester, and if he was a quack or a sane doc so I guess Gorrads was breadcrumbing a little bit. I didn't catch this day 1 and don't know if anyone could have from what Gorrads wrote. Maybe the kill was for his seniority, but we shouldn't rule this out.

Group: Did anyone read it as a possible breadcrumb? Do you think anyone could have understood what it meant?

I did see that when I looked back at the game after Gorrad's death but I didn't see it as a likely breadcrumb. I don't think I would have picked up on that at all before his death.

Anyway, I'm torn on whether to ask any protectors to use it on Poro. It's true he led us in the first lynch and all, but OTOH, it may have been a stab in the dark. Guessing which it is turns into WIFOM in my head and makes it hurt badly. I will, however, say that if there is a doctor out there, don't bother using it on me, since I have no ability anyway.

I think I made it clear in my play yesterday that I found Dukes to be suspicious. I still find that to be the case. One more thing that I didn't like from yesterday but haven't commented on is that part of his end of day post there. I don't at all like someone claiming vanilla townie with no pressure. If he is town I'm not going to believe other role claims he makes now so if he's lying he's screwing himself. If he's telling the truth then he's making it easier for the scum to get the power roles as they don't have to worry about focusing on him.

I'm going to put my

Vote: Duke

again today. It was supposed to be a pressure vote yesterday but with Xtoxm gone he's now the one I actually do find to be the most scummy.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[wolframnhart]

Group: Did anyone read it as a possible breadcrumb? Do you think anyone could have understood what it meant?

I only read it as a possible bread crumb after the fact. As far as if anyone could have understood it, who knows, it is after the fact, scum could have figured it out or could have gotten lucky.

[LlamaFluff]

I do think that Poro was messing around with Xtoxm, and when i said maybe he could be a mafia role cop i meant that, maybe he could be, but i didn't find it that likely to vote him for it, just keep an eye on him is all and i see nothing wrong with that. I still don't get how i am being accused of setting Poro up for a lynch today, all i said was maybe he was a mafia role cop, he could very well be a town day cop, but if he was why would he out Xtoxm so quickly?

If anything what he said was in jest and Xtoxm freaked out

.

Then why bring up the possibility even? The fact that you are seeming to go with a "oh I didnt think he was the rolecop really" play now, mixed with a rolename hint (which is a big no to me) gets a

vote wolf

for now.

You also have not really done any scumhunting this game, the most you have done is argueably that poro is a scum rolecop, which you now are denying.

Also discussing breadcrumbs is NOT good. If we start pointing out ones from dead players, we might expose ones that still need to be hidden.

[Porochaz]

The xtoxm lynch was only made so quickly because it was bllatantly obvious he was scum.

[wolframnhart]

I really do not get why you are tunnel visioning on me llama. has anyone done a ton of scum hunting? Enough to say that i am the one person that has done none at all? Have i pushed for a poro lynch today that you assumed i was setting up yesterday? Have you looked hard at anyone else? And if you have what is your opinion on everyone?

[Dukes]

Look, I don't understand why the votes. I've been blatantly obvious about my situation from the word "go". I don't want people wasting their time on me when there are more important people to protect.

The conspiracy theory is clearly out the window now, because Xtoxm was who he said he was. As for whether Poro is with us or against us, I think it's entirely probable he made a stone cold bluff and got lucky. For the record,

under NO circumstances do I support at Day 2 lynch of Poro right out of the gate.

Only if the bussing theory was true would I have suggested it. Since it's clearly false, we move on.

Now, as for the possibilities, let me try to deduce them. (I'll admit, I'm traditionally much weaker earlier on, but here goes nothing...)

If a Town Cop

: Poro clearly got lucky in this case. If he is a daycop, then he's a valuable asset who can pick apart someone and figure out whose side they're on. In this case, I would suggest it wait until closer to "afternoon", so that once it becomes clear there's a hint of where to go, he can derail what would otherwise be a potentially crippling lynch.

If a Scum Cop

: The play above could be seen as a safety net for the town. Suppose that we're at L-2 for a townie. Poro makes the check and reports he's scum. That's enough for us and the player goes down.

Well, let's assume for the moment we're at 7 town and 3 mafia. Upon seeing the player we were TOLD was scum be a townie, Poro is essentially dead to rights, because either he was blatantly lying or he was conned, and frankly if conmen are day actions this game is broken. At this point, our lynch of the SK (and I apologize for using "scum" and "threat to the town" interchangeably) buys us a day. After the nightkill, day lynch, and nightkill, we'd be down to 4 town and 2 Mafia -- which is endgame, yes, but frankly our next bad lynch puts us at endgame if there were 3 Mafia.

On the other hand, if we're 8 town and 2 Mafia -- which gives us the 25% scum -- then our play would allow us to have, by my count, two stabs at victory after the above scenario runs its course.

If Other Townie

: I think for the sake of the bodyguard, it would be nice to know so we don't go wasting protection on him. I know, I know, people don't like claiming this, that, or the other, but in a Theme Mafia, I've seen benefits to mass-claiming, and it's partly why I did it to start. If you force a claim from a scum player, there's a chance his lie will be in the game, and then he's in deep trouble. Then again, it's clear the people on this board are a quantum level higher than those I'm usually playing with or against. Even so, if Poro is vanilla, why would he smokescreen?

If Other Scum

: His most likely play would be to claim he is a Town Daycop, but again, that would only buy him one day. If the Mafia only has 2 or 3 people in it, what good does bussing one of them do? As shown above, we're practically in a best-of-three situation as it is, so do you want to give up "game 1"?

Anyway, the point of all this duplicitous overthinking and most likely half-baked analysis is this:

In a game with a small Mafia, it is almost a disaster for one of them to claim Cop.

Especially day cop, which is a role I'm not even convinced is in the game right now.

So if you were to ask me what the odds are: I'd say it's most likely he's non-Cop town, with a chance of being non-Cop Mafia. Now...

Having re-read my own stuff and a few others', I will start with

Unvote.

I wanted to hear Zorblag's argument for voting for me (so in that sense, saying "OMGUS"

was

the probe), and I've heard it. Hopefully I can make sense of this a little more with this post.

I don't think Gorrad was bread-crumbing at all. Certainly not as much as I was, although that would take some effort.

What really gets me, though, and this is legitimate: Llama seems hellbent on implicating Wolf, Kloud, and myself because of an argument that we wanted Poro gone today. Kloud retracted his statement almost immediately, my argument was based on paranoid conspiracy that I even admitted at the time was far-fetched (and which has since been debunked), and Wolf became suspicious just by suggesting the role exists. On top of this, Llama accuses Wolf of not doing much scum-hunting when there was a darned good reason he didn't: we found one!

Wolf's right: Llama seems to be getting tunnel vision here, and I'd kinda like to know why.

[LlamaFluff]

What really gets me, though, and this is legitimate: Llama seems hellbent on implicating Wolf, Kloud, and myself because of an argument that we wanted Poro gone today. Kloud retracted his statement almost immediately, my argument was based on paranoid conspiracy that I even admitted at the time was far-fetched (and which has since been debunked), and Wolf became suspicious just by suggesting the role exists. On top of this, Llama accuses Wolf of not doing much scum-hunting when there was a darned good reason he didn't: we found one!

You sort of summarized why I think you three are scummy. Kloud retracted the statement when I challenged it, due to a few events though, he isnt as high as other players. You came up with a far fetched idea that let you call poro town. Wolf started speculating that a player was an anti-town role for game related events. I am pretty sure you can see that this is scummy, more so when he seems to be bringing up that he never thought it was true, but still wanted to publicly speculate about a player being anti-town.

Also there was no reason we could not scumhunt, I know I did. Everyone who voted for xtoxm voted because they thought he was an SK. An SK is not a member of the mafia. Given that we ended up ending the day as fast as we did left us with nothing but a dead doctor to go on today. Nothing excpet for the discussion that I am bringing up due to my actions and actions of others day one, ie scumhunting.

Wolf's right: Llama seems to be getting tunnel vision here, and I'd kinda like to know why.

Its not tunnel vision. I have what I see as legitimate information against multiple people, and want a lynch of one of them. I have some reasons to move Kloud to a backburner temporarily, and I keep going back and forth on you given that the ideas that you suggest are along the same line as the one about bussing. Wolf given his actions yesterday and today top my list, so my vote is there. If someone can present a better case, or I happen apon something I think is scummier, I will unvote. This is a good spot to start the day though I think.

Have i pushed for a poro lynch today that you assumed i was setting up yesterday? Have you looked hard at anyone else? And if you have what is your opinion on everyone?

No, but I dont think its something you would tempt today given my actions either way. You still havent pushed anyone though apart from the slight OMGUS on me.
Yes I reread the game during the night, you are still the scummiest to me.
Seriously... well ok.
scummy - wolf, dukes, kloud
gut scummy - jahudo, pacman
slightly town - everyone else

[wolframnhart]

There has been no sligh OMGUS push against you llama, i have asked questions and that has been it, no FoS, no vote, no nothing, i think you are trying to make a mountain out of an anthill because there is nothing at all in your case against me that i haven't explained.

[Drunken Piper]

still waiting
and anticipating.

(Sip)..like to hear a response to this please.

I think that Dukes vote is really weak and his reasoning poor, but he did state that it was a "probe"/OMGUS vote. Dukes, usually a "probe" also uses questions. What is probing about this vote at the beginning of Day 2?...do you think it is wise to OMGUS vote in day 2?

also, we are in Day 2...Ghost, has posting exactly once...tired of lurkers in my games...post or be replaced. Ghost, what are your thoughts about Llama vs. wolf/duke/kloud? your thoughts on Dukes OMGUS vote on day 2?...and this current bandwagon? How do you feel day 1 went? Consider this post a warning.

[farside22]

Prodding Kloud and ghost writer

[Dukes]

DP:

The probe was "Why the heck am I considered a threat?" OMGUS just summed it up better than a question ever would. Wasn't a matter of wisdom -- there's no way with this game a bandwagon will form, so I could easily listen to his response and remove my vote a few hours later -- which I did.

I can understand if the train of thought I'm on is hard to follow. But it seems to me that if you (as Zorblag did) refuse to vote for a self-outed scum player, it's a bizarre choice. Why prolong the inevitable? And in a game where players make double-digit posts on Day 1, can you really say you don't know anything about players?

Okay, enough of my parallel universe experience ranting. It's like this: as I said, OMGUS was the probe. In no way was it meant to be a solid vote. I wanted to hear what made me suspicious so I could refute it. I still think Llama's play is distressing, because he not only is convinced he's found a scum, he appears to be convinced he's found ALL the scum -- but, he's also one of the few guys who has a lead. Poro's not suspicious -- well, no more than any other generic player is. GW is quiet and Pacman is away, but it's too soon to do a Lurk-Lynch.

I really don't like the implication we've given the Mafia the initiative (Zorblag), because by the very nature of the game they already had it, so that's false reasoning. That's kind of why I'm surprised people are upset at my announcement of who I am: The more information that is on the table, the smaller the relative gap between the uninformed and the informed.

Besides, as I said before, given that I've seen whole games started and finished in the span of the three weeks this game has for a day period, we will

not

be starving for information.

Okay, so I'm re-reading Day 1. And there is something I find really amazing... unfortunately, I almost feel guilty bringing it up because there's no chance for defense. Ah, but what the heck:

Pacman's confirm post happened after Xtoxm exploded. He jokingly voted for Poro before retracting it and voting for Jahudo. Then, when asked what the heck just happened, he pointed the FoS at the person who asked him. All this when we had a known Threat to the Town already out there. He then continued not to vote for the admitted Serial Killer. When asked about this, he said he was worried about there being a bomb or a jester. Those roles I could buy being in a 24-person game, but a 12? Wouldn't only the essentials be in a game like that?

Now, since it appears I'm more out of place than the token Washington National at the MLB All-Star Game, I'll stop short of voting just yet. But... doesn't Pacman's play seem kind of odd in retrospect?

[kloud1516]

...trying to come up with a way that Xtoxm could be a non-scum role.

X wasn't scum, he was third party. He was anti-town, of course, but not scum. My main reason for not voting him was for this reason. We need to find scum and

day 1 ended before we got very far at all on that subject.

QFT. While we are, in fact, down an anti-town player, we still have very little information to go by other than speculation, or other impressions that may have been made Day 1. At this point, if I had to place a vote at this very moment, it would most likely be on Dukes, for reasoning given in 143. I will not, however, as of now, for I think it would be most beneficial to take a step back and actual analyze players and try to create some discussion -- at least more than what was generated yesterday.

I think the right spots to look are towards the people who began labling poro as scum early in the game, and sewing seeds for a lynch of him today.

Agreed. I want to hear more from the people that are considering poro scum based on the mafia day role cop theory or any other current poro scum theory.

Kloud: You mention "coincidence" when talking about poro guessing X's role. How is your argument related and/or unrelated to a WIFOM argument from what poro could have intentionally done or what could have happened to him by chance?

I would like to start by pointing out, as I believe I already have, that I was not making an argument, but simply expressing why I had conflicting opinions in regards to the situation. As I mentioned in post 143, my first impression of the whole situation was that Poro's comment was merely a joke. The tone of his post and the manner in which he presented it appeared to be nothing more than a light jest, and so I really did not think anything of it. When xtoxm then went on to claim that he was indeed a SK, I wasn't sure if my earlier assumption was the actual case. This is where the "coincidence" comes in, as I acknowledged that it was very odd that Poro hit the nail on the head, seeing as how a Mafia Role Cop has indeed been present in past Mini Games.

I do not see my statement of having conflicting opinions to be WIFOM, as I felt it was necessary to analyze both claims. WIFOM, at least in my opinion, is not prevalent to my comment, no case was made to begin with, and nothing within said train of thought, in my opinion, suggests that I was indeed making a case on Poro simply because of xtoxm's Mafia Role Cop accusation. Maybe at a later time, when we have more information to go off of then what we have now, my opinions on this may change. At the moment, however, I am more likely to believe the comment was merely said as a joke, as I have experienced times when xtoxm has blown up on someone and accused them of being scum, even when they weren't (I cannot cite said game though, for it is still in progress).

Kloud made the push a little more blatant then the other players. It may of been the wording of 143, but the part of the post regarding poro sounded like he was starting to move to the lynch citing that it was "too much of a coincidence". When pushed on it he called it speculation and he backed down on the thought.

No, I did not back down. I defended my position against a statement made by you that I felt was flawed. The situation being "too much of a coincidence" is again addressed in 147:

Lynch someone whos possibly town, and the whole rolecop thing is 100% n the basis of what the antitown player has said. Why?

Yes: xtoxm's assumption that you are a Mafia Role Cop is plausible, but I am not basing my opinions solely off of his statements. I feel that whole situation seems to be just too much of a coincidence, and leads me to believe that you could indeed be a Role Cop. Townie Role Cop? There is always the possibility.

This is not me beginning a case on Poro, not in the slightest sense. This is me simply stating that I could see either scenario being plausible. I indeed stated that I felt Poro

could

/i] be a Role Cop, but, as I have said several times now, me "feeling" something is not enough for me to vote them. I never pushed for a Porochaz lynch, I was simply giving my two cents on the situation, citing the coincidence as part of my train of logic for having conflicting thoughts about it.

[kloud1516]

What really gets me, though, and this is legitimate: Llama seems hellbent on implicating Wolf, Kloud, and myself because of an argument that we wanted Poro gone today. Kloud retracted his statement almost immediately, my argument was based on paranoid conspiracy that I even admitted at the time was far-fetched (and which has since been debunked), and Wolf became suspicious just by suggesting the role exists. On top of this, Llama accuses Wolf of not doing much scum-hunting when there was a darned good reason he didn't: we found one!

You sort of summarized why I think you three are scummy.

Kloud retracted the statement when I challenged it,

due to a few events though, he isnt as high as other players. You came up with a far fetched idea that let you call poro town. Wolf started speculating that a player was an anti-town role for game related events. I am pretty sure you can see that this is scummy, more so when he seems to be bringing up that he never thought it was true, but still wanted to publicly speculate about a player being anti-town.

Could you elaborate on how I retracted my statements, please? I have looked at my posts in a chain, and I still feel that I upheld my opinions, whilst defending my position against your accusations (that I still feel are flawed). If you could describe how I backpedaled or shrank away from my statements, that would be a big help, if only when it comes to clarity.

[LlamaFluff]

What really gets me, though, and this is legitimate: Llama seems hellbent on implicating Wolf, Kloud, and myself because of an argument that we wanted Poro gone today. Kloud retracted his statement almost immediately, my argument was based on paranoid conspiracy that I even admitted at the time was far-fetched (and which has since been debunked), and Wolf became suspicious just by suggesting the role exists. On top of this, Llama accuses Wolf of not doing much scum-hunting when there was a darned good reason he didn't: we found one!

You sort of summarized why I think you three are scummy.

Kloud retracted the statement when I challenged it,

due to a few events though, he isnt as high as other players. You came up with a far fetched idea that let you call poro town. Wolf started speculating that a player was an anti-town role for game related events. I am pretty sure you can see that this is scummy, more so when he seems to be bringing up that he never thought it was true, but still wanted to publicly speculate about a player being anti-town.

Could you elaborate on how I retracted my statements, please? I have looked at my posts in a chain, and I still feel that I upheld my opinions, whilst defending my position against your accusations (that I still feel are flawed). If you could describe how I backpedaled or shrank away from my statements, that would be a big help, if only when it comes to clarity.

I concede this point a little. You started with the speculation of poro being a rolecop which I took as calling him a rolecop. I missed that you stated "if I thought he was I would of voted him" in the intial post and thought that appeared once the speculation was mentioned. Despite the timelines I still think speculating about an anti-town role is pretty scummy given the context of the day, and automatically think the people who publicly brought up that it may exist, let alone is poro, are scummy to me. Like I said though, I have reasons to put wolf and dukes ahead of you in scumminess for now.

[Jahudo]

I'm getting some town vibes from Llama and kloud. wolf and pacman need to post more about different stuff. Dukes could be scum but I get this kind of gut feeling on new players not used to the slower pace either. He's worth looking at more though.

I still think Llama's play is distressing, because he not only is convinced he's found a scum, he appears to be convinced he's found ALL the scum

That's a mischaracterization or strawmanning his argument IMO.

GW is quiet and Pacman is away, but it's too soon to do a Lurk-Lynch.

If you want to pressure them, do so. But why speculate about a lynch over someone that doesn't post? When is that a good idea?

That's kind of why I'm surprised people are upset at my announcement of who I am: The more information that is on the table, the smaller the relative gap between the uninformed and the informed.

1. It leads to speculation over power roles, which can help scum decide who to night kill if we're right.
2. It leads to believing in the burden of proof. Scum could wait and claim good guys that haven't been claimed yet, or pick an obscure minor character right off the bat.
Do you disagree that these are bad for town / good for scum?

Pacman's confirm post happened after Xtoxm exploded. He jokingly voted for Poro before retracting it and voting for Jahudo. Then, when asked what the heck just happened, he pointed the FoS at the person who asked him. All this when we had a known Threat to the Town already out there. He then continued not to vote for the admitted Serial Killer. When asked about this, he said he was worried about there being a bomb or a jester. Those roles I could buy being in a 24-person game, but a 12? Wouldn't only the essentials be in a game like that?

This I like. Pacman give us your train of thought on who's scummy and who's towny. What do you see?

[Dukes]

I'm getting some town vibes from Llama and kloud. wolf and pacman need to post more about different stuff. Dukes could be scum but I get this kind of gut feeling on

new players not used to the slower pace

either. He's worth looking at more though.

Bingo!

GW is quiet and Pacman is away, but it's too soon to do a Lurk-Lynch.

If you want to pressure them, do so. But why speculate about a lynch over someone that doesn't post? When is that a good idea?

Isn't one of the classic beginner's scumtells to say nothing and let go with the flow, knowing "the flow" is mathematically more likely to lead to a townie? Again, as you speculated, this may be a pacing issue.

That's kind of why I'm surprised people are upset at my announcement of who I am: The more information that is on the table, the smaller the relative gap between the uninformed and the informed.

1. It leads to speculation over power roles, which can help scum decide who to night kill if we're right.
2. It leads to believing in the burden of proof. Scum could wait and claim good guys that haven't been claimed yet, or pick an obscure minor character right off the bat.
Do you disagree that these are bad for town / good for scum?

Yes, both of those are reasons not to. Even in the other games, it's a tricky thing. However, considering the person I've claimed is (1) almost certainly in the game and (2) not counter-claimed by anyone, I feel slightly justified. Nevertheless, in the future I'll hold off until the rope's halfway around my neck -- is that fair?

Anyway, since it appears my train of thought is finally on a good track, I'll make it official:

FoS: Pacman

[kloud1516]

I'm getting some town vibes from Llama and kloud. wolf and pacman need to post more about different stuff. Dukes could be scum but I get this kind of gut feeling on

new players not used to the slower pace

either. He's worth looking at more though.

Bingo!

I really do not like when people try to excuse anything that may be considered suspicious by others with the new card. I acknowledge that a change in pace takes time to get acclimated with, but responses like those above are not particular favorites of mine, as the defense based off inexperience then tends to be used to the point of ad nauseam.

Anyway, since it appears my train of thought is finally on a good track, I'll make it official:

FoS: Pacman

What do you mean by "since my train of though appears to be on a good track?"

[farside22]

GhostWriter has picked up his prod. If he does not post by Monday he will be replaced.