UK Eastermeet 2022 Invitational (Game over!)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well, this is a lot weirder than I was expecting. We probably should go for some form of potato-based justice.

So it's probably not a bad discussion starter: can anyone do anything with the stuff in the opening post?

In my day this would definitely get you executed for rolefishing.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The fact that there are potatoes in addition to consuls does give us an opportunity to get round what is the one downside of king/consulmaker which is that non-consuls can sometimes be less engaged.

For that reason I suggest that we vote for whom to depotato.

Vote: Bellaphant

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If they don't that would just cement them as scum imho.

Agreed. Especially after that typewriter jab.

Well, this is a lot weirder than I was expecting. We probably should go for some form of potato-based justice.

I'd vote you for that suggestion.

Too late! I've already codified voting as potato-based, so you can't vote for me without agreeing to the potatocracy.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You know that nobody benefits here from having more than 1 potato right? So the only reason to give away your potato is in order to voluntarily execute yourself, and the only reason to do that is if you are on the block for actual execution, to give the town access to extra executions. Not that it worked out great for us last time?

The design of the potato game was definitely that it helped the town by allowing them to execute more people (to the extent that the rest of the set-up consisted of ways of making it less strong). And I think it'd be an absolute waste not to take advantage of it.

And as stated previously, I think we should all vote and have that voting determine our potato redistribution efforts (i.e. if a majority votes for you, you gotta give up your tubers). Voting is pro-town, people.

In terms of PrimBella, I think Primate has to have relatively specific beliefs as to how likely Menno is to act impulsively to rule out the move as scum but for it to feel reasonable as town. Personally, I think the more compelling argument against it is that I'm not sure scumPrim would choose to put the pressure on a scum buddy in that way.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Honestly confused by primate here: I don't think CES can really think that reading an opening post of, what looks like from my pov, nonsense, and reacting to it is scummy at all. an opener like that deserves a reaction! I'd also be surprised if the stuff there is crucial to game solving, but I'm happy to be wrong.

More anti-town than scummy, really.

I did forget to be fair that you wouldn't have been there for some of the stuff. I can explain some of the references: the codenames grid was used in Wereleg's Invention Game, which had several Inventors which could all invent things by combining adjacent entries on the grid and giving that invention to someone (without knowing what exactly it would do). Wereleg also had potato and consul-based games but those mechanics are basically self-explanatory. Ten Candles was a rpg Wenna ran; Cockroach Poker is just a bluffing-style game - there's no obvious mechanical effect of either and I doubt it's particularly pressing for us to find out what they do.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

But looking back, knowing that you didn't get the references doesn't actually make me feel better about the post.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@Cerys, CES - what are your reads on each other?

If we were further into the game, I would find her scummy, but I'm happy to wait to see and how that develops.. A lot of her reads feel like very Fenchurchy reads in a way that I feel like she would fake as scum (i.e. it matches my mental model for how she plays but I don't expect my model to capture the complexity of Fentown).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Have you played scum recently, Nexus?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Although instinctively I still think Chris' offer here to give his up is irrational and therefore scummy.

The "therefore" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I think you look town, myko, if it helps.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Vote: Menno

The lack of explanation for the hammer either Yesterday or Today seems fairly damning.

The potato vendor was scum in Wereleg and does make somewhat more sense as that alignment but it's not clear to me a scum potato vendor wouldn't save cpol anyway (it personally seems incorrect to me but I often have different ideas on that front). Town potato vendor is also more plausible given that people clearly didn't experience the potato mechanic in wereleg as being as pro-town as it was designed to be.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Are you saying you don't remember why you were convinced that Bella was scum or claiming you simply didn't care about such things at the time?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't think it's quite as straightforward as scum potato vendor = cpolscum, so I don't see any need to rush it.

I'm happy for the day to end.

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[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't think it's quite as straightforward as scum potato vendor = cpolscum, so I don't see any need to rush it.

But wouldn't it make Menno-scum much less likely? If Menno-scum's goal was to get an extra kill by timing the execution when cpol had no potato, why would the scum team then decide to save cpol?

Mennoscum could easily make one decision and then the scum group could decide on a different course of action during the Night. They may even have been zooted at the time of the execution as they claimed and then realized overnight they were never getting away with it without some sort of distraction.

@CES - you said that Meno's hammer was damning. So to confirm, you think they are definitely scum?

To be clear, I said their lack of explanation was damning. I've seen plenty of quickhammers in my day and I've never seen so little attempt at justification or mea culpa; if Menno is town, how is there no inkling of pro-town thinking behind it that could be expounded upon or if not that, some sense of guilt? Especially in combination with your situation, this feels like a deliberate move; they have nothing good to say, so they say nothing and hope the town overthinks it/gets distracted by other things.

If we execute them and they do come up as scum, who would you want to execute the following day? If they did not come up as scum, where would you be looking instead?

I've never liked this question. It's a distraction. Have you ever done like a crossword (or other word puzzle) where you're given a letter in a word and you immediately get it, even though you had previously considered that very same possibility?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I decided if I didn't like her next post I would execute and I didn't

So were you zooted when you made that decision or only when you hammered?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I hate cases so much. I'd like to see that I think cases are scummy but that's not even true; they're merely anti-town and I hate them with a burning passion.

So, despite my own thoughts, the confirmed town majority did not like it I feel, and also the hivemind. However, CES has pushed for this quite a lot, stating his thoughts on the setup of the WereLeg game made it pro town (see post #43).

I'm aware that the way the potato game played out left people with a feeling that scum was able to hide behind the potatoes. But it shouldn't be surprising that I, as the person who designed the potato set-up (and consulmaker too for that matter), have thought about the set-up substantially and might have different views. The ability to generate multiple executions is unquestionably a powerful pro-town tool (and a mafia potato vendor adds WIFOM to that but does not inherently take away that power) and that was very much an expected part of the potato set-up. In addition, I know one downside of Consulmaker games is that it can be hard for non-Consuls to get started in the absence of voting (which is why my actual Consulmaker games have featured Tribune elections), so I saw a perfect opportunity to introduce a voting mechanic (i.e. voting for whom to depotato) which would kill both birds with a stone. I, in fact, tried to avoid too much potato discussion by presenting it as a bit of a fait accompli (maybe I should have more fully explained my reasoning right at the start to pre-empt further discussion? I don't think that would've actually worked either).

Edited to remove outdated terminology. Badger incoming - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

This whole exchange feels like basically a distraction. Here's what I find interesting: Menno has now made some more comments about "why" they hammered Bella - do any of their comments actually feel like they explain or illuminate what happened?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

'I've never seen so little attempt at justification' is an observation that doesn't have any alignment-deducing qualities to it - the conclusion that scum are more likely to avoid giving an explanation for their actions altogether is left to be assumed by the reader. I don't think town!CES would be expecting as much of a rational explanation for Menno's quickhammer as he is at the moment, while I see plenty of motive for scum!CES to choose this as his narrative.

The first observation is to me what counters what would otherwise be a reasonable narrative, i.e. that we've all seen town quickhammers. This is not any town quickhammer I've ever seen looks like.

And I did go into detail as to why I thought not explaining it seems like a strategy scum!Menno would employ. The strategy aspect of it only seem clearer to me - barely explain things, hope things blow over/town gets distracted by something else, and then provide more explanation or more relevantly something that looks like more explanation so it looks played out.

(The use of the word "rational" also seems highly misleading to me. I'd also be perfectly fine with an irrational explanation!)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If you can provide any examples of why this play isn't out of character for Menno specifically, I'd be interested in seeing them.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The profile I get from this is not that they are hoping this will blow over - I'm getting defeatism, and then from after 213, an interest in providing thoughts that come to them.

Well, obviously they're not gonna say it, are they? If you're not going to have an open mind about this, I see no reason to continue this conversation.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

What do you think of Klick, Menno?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Sorry I've been busy recently. I find I'm starting to dislike phone posting, which is a little limiting these days.

One thing I definitely want to note before the day ends is that I can very much see Menno and Klick being partnered, especially due to how Menno has cast some shade on Klick while at the same time not really saying much at all about them. I've got stuff to do now but I'll go into more detail later tonight.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I definitely wasn't expecting that nightkill.

I think #359 is pretty unlikely to have been made up (and cpol looked reasonably town Yesterday as well), so I'm satisfied on that front.

Wenna, can you pinpoint what you find scummy about me, Fenchurch or Postie?

And their thoughts after this point were extremely forthcoming, I'm not sure how you can say they weren't? They were clearly scum hunting and proactively trying to look outside of Menno. You might have doubted Klick yesterday, but given that Menno flipped town I am really struggling to see how you could come in to this day as a townie being relieved that Klick was taken out of your potential options for looking at Scum in.

I think you always have to look both at the consequences of people's actions (which is to be clear that a) unsurprisingly they did not actually prevent Menno's execution and b) started a counterwagon on me, who is town) as well as their reasoning because scum naturally can more easily arrange to look good and have the motive to do so (I have literally replaced into a game and been absolutely convinced that a player was scum because they had bussed someone so hard and starting so early it was no longer plausible to me as town play).

Edited for term replacement - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

As for claiming, given that it is Day 3, it's probably prudent. I'm

The People Who Saw Us Dressed As Romans

, a Night 0 Consulmaker.

For the record, my first instinct was Fenchurch+Wenna (I wanted someone lurkery to force them into the spotlight and someone active to complement them) but I figured that did make the obvious consulmaker if scum ever bother to think about it, so I figured instead I'd reward McMenno for their excellent job consulmaking and I wanted to pair with someone who lurks but might also provide some wisdom to counteract Menno's impulsiveness. I felt about guilty and awkward about that at the start.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I didn't think about your antipathy towards my playstyle consciously and if pressed now, I also don't think I would expect it to be so strong that you execute me Day 1.

Re: avoiding scum knowing I was the Consulmaker, you've basically made my point as far as I'm concerned. It's like claiming vt Day 1 - completely unacceptable behaviour.

If I was to attempt it with little excogitation;

Individually: cunning, twisting and flip-flopping, respectively.
Overall: odd little teaming up/facing off between the three of you.

Can you give any (alignment-relevant) examples of me being cunning? Or Fen twisting words (I assume that's what you mean)? Do you think flip-flopping is inherently scummy (I would say the opposite) or do you think Postie has done so in a suspicious manner?

Nexus, can you tell me why you think I'm scum?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Can you give any (alignment-relevant) examples of me being cunning? Or Fen twisting words (I assume that's what you mean)? Do you think flip-flopping is inherently scummy (I would say the opposite) or do you think Postie has done so in a suspicious manner?

I think I'm actually interested in the second question most of all unless you just mean twisting in the same sense as flip-flopping in which case priority reverts to the first question.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We probably should.

I'll popcorn to Nexus.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

In terms of my reads, I feel like the only thing I'm currently confident of is that cpol is town; he's seemed genuine throughout and some of his stuff would've required some real creativity to come up with as scum.

Postie and Poro I also lean town on for very different reasons - there's a bunch of details in Poro's posts that have made a lot of sense to me (e.g. the observation about not being invested on Day 1 in #388); Postie on the other hand feels a lot more foreign to me but I think her level of flip-flopping is unlikely to come from scum.

Primate and Fenchurch I'm still mostly clueless on. I think the unfortunate thing with Fenchurch is that I know and she knows that she would always find the McMenno quickexecution superscummy, so the response to unquestionably the biggest event of the game just has NULL TELL painted all over it.

Which leaves me with Nexus and Wenna, who have been pretty lurkerish. My initial reaction to being left with them as my top suspects was definitely a sense of having gone amiss somewhere but lurking has basically been a good scum strategy throughout the game? Don't get noticed by consuls; just let the McMennowagon happen? Nexus definitely fits that particular profile.

My main issue with Wenna is that she's mostly been talking in very general terms. The transition from real-life to forum explains some of it but even in real-life I'd expect people to discuss things in terms of concrete things that happened more than Wenna has done. It's easier for scum to talk abstractly than concretely (because concretely you know the alignment of the person posting), e.g. the only posts Wenna has dissected are her own. #397 and #400 also really feel weird to me because both #397's description of Fenchurch as twisting doesn't resonate at all with me in terms of describing Fenchurch's play (I think her play has been pretty straightforward) and then when pushed Wenna basically just accuses Fenchurch of twisting words even though ostensibly that's not Wenna meant by "twisting".

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@CES

- That Primate post just before yours leaves you 'mostly clueless' still? Especially when you consider Nexus and Wenna as 'pretty lurkerish' straight afterwards? Am I to assume then that you are happy with their level of posting over the last couple of in game days?

Sorry if it was unclear, but I don't think the lurking itself is particularly scummy. I think the way Nexus has played the game is pretty consistent with a scum lurker (e.g. I think a scum lurker is more likely to want to avoid the scrutiny of being responsible misexecution). I don't think Primate has played that way; I think he just hasn't posted enough for me to get a real read on him.

I do not understand CES's logic here. I speak with hypotheses and in general terms because I do not know anything concretely - not the opposite. As I said, I am a VT - I know nothing (yet I suspect many things, and I have tried to explain them as best I can). There is so much to read and dissect, it is far simpler to summarise. Most thoughts have become overarching ideologies at this point, rather than an ever-growing list of evidence.

You know concretely what you've read. If you're town, your hypotheses haven't come from thin air, they come from specific things people have posted and e.g. without tying it to anything Fenchurch has actually posted your accusation that's she's been twisting is not something I can understand let alone believe.

Can you give examples of Fenchurch twisting? Preferably the A to B to C type of twisting.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It also makes sense given that CES was the only real counterwagon to the VT elimination yesterday.

It would obviously be narratively satisfying if that was the case, but I'm pretty sure that scenario does not in fact make more sense than 2 wagons on town.

It kinda feels too brazen for it to be both Nexus and Wenna. I'm not sure who I'd rather execute out of the two. Nexus' push on me is unquestionably worse but Wenna's read on Fenchurch feels very much like a "The Emperor has no Clothes" situation. Could be Wenna with Fenchurch, maybe? Not sure it's actually worth thinking about at this stage because I'm not sure we can win here if either Nexus or Wenna are town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Wenna's read on Fenchurch feels very much like a "The Emperor has no Clothes" situation

CES: Please expand on this.

You've just written these elaborate descriptions of the behaviour that's supposed to make Fenchurch scummy, of manipulating people in these really thought out ways. But there's just nothing behind it; when I asked for an example, it seemed to amount to her with agreeing with something. I don't think there's any way she could have manipulated that into existence and it doesn't seem to particularly accomplish anything? At a push you could suggest she's trying to establish cpol as town but then she's doing it quite overtly.

CES: Why can't we win if Nexus or I are town?

It just feels hard to imagine executing two other people over both of you.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Cpol, this is entirely wrong, please unvote.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

We're at even numbers with a jailkeeper. No way scum give up multiple members for a quickexecution here. If they have the numbers to finish me off, they just talk themselves into it.

And that's not even taking into account that they have barely had time to arrange a quickexecution nor that Nexus and Wenna could easily both be scum.

EDIT: Badger incoming - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't actually get how you can vote for Primate earlier in the day for lurking and somehow have issue with the theory that Nexus and Wenna, both of whom I would describe as having interacted less with the game than Primate.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you think that e.g. if there's a Nexus-Poro-Fenchurch scum team, Poro and Fenchurch would quickhammer me, risking a 1 in 3 that they get jailkept and the town is right back in it?

But also, just as an example, Poro hasn't actually posted while I've been at E-2.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Please explain why over the course of this day, when you have been at three votes twice, you haven't been executed. Scum could easily have carried on the previous days case if they wanted to, it wouldn't have been a hard switch and wouldn't have looked like a quick execution to me.

I guess this is a different question, sorry. I think a lot of scum don't actually feel that comfortable changing their minds (which is why I thought Postie was town even before the Jailkeeper claim); I certainly wouldn't be surprised if a scum!Primate or scum!Fenchurch would not turn on me. Especially when I hadn't claimed at the start of the Day and scum is reasonably likely to be in a good enough position to not need risk everything on this Day (a Nexus-Wenna-??? probably is more motivated to win Today).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I am not overly enamoured by Primates response to being called out - what I would call overly defensive/aggressive (similar to Patrick did to me during WereLeg one game when he was scum), plus for someone not 'invested' in the game, they sure responded quickly to being voted for. Nexus may have been luring a lot more, but several of their comments have resonated with what I was feeling at the time as well. I'll agree Wenna is a null for me at the moment, but could fall into that 1 voter category. And I still land on the fact that I can't see Nexus and Wenna together as a pairing.

My experience with town vs scum lurkers is that scum lurkers generally put more effort into creating those sort of moments, posting little snippets that make you think "oh yeah" even though they're not actually hard to fake. And anyone could've predicted that Andy was going to lurk; maybe you haven't played much forum mafia with Andy but he's not scum who's secretly 'invested' in the game.

I don't actually get how you can vote for Primate earlier in the day for lurking and somehow have issue with the theory that Nexus and Wenna, both of whom I would describe as having interacted less with the game than Primate.

Yes I was AFK for the first day, but I feel like I have been contributing a lot since then, trying to offer reads and ideas and find baddies. Primate and I have about the same number of posts. I feel like you're clinging onto something that doesn't hold true anymore.

It's Day 3 and you're voting for me mainly because I have vibes of being cunning, as far as I can tell.

P-edit: 3 scum.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I feel like the main reason I'm on the chopping block Today is just made-up narratives about the Mennowagon. It sure is hard to imagine what sort of motive scum might have had to help create this type of situation.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Do you not think scum might be trying to take advantage of that feeling, cpol?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well, my expectation had been that people would chime in and we'd pick one of the obvious suspicious people to execute but it turns out that a) people have trash reads and b) the two obviously suspicious people just dropped votes with no meaningful justification and people are just okay with that for some reason, so now it's on me to save the town. Which will probably fail and I've got things to do, but I'll feel bad if I don't try.

Could you read through Nexus' iso and when you think something feels town, ask yourself "Could marginally competent scum fake this?" and realize the answer is "Actually yes, they could, why am I falling for it?" (it's because lurking just does lower your baseline expectations and it's much easier to create townie impressions if you never have to back it up). That'd be the easiest way for us to get back into this game, I feel and otherwise I'll probably feel forced to post some deep breakdown of why Wenna's behaviour is scummy that no one will appreciate but will make me feel better after the game.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why are you trying so hard to convince me specifically though? I'm open to be challenged, but so far you've posted to defend yourself, but not actually put any effort in to look elsewhere (outside of some posts in the general direction of Wenna). You've even just said you are passively hoping that others would chime in. You were certainly happy to post a lot when it was related to defending yourself. It feels like you think you have got me off your case so you can relax.

I think the most likely path to executing scum today through goes Nexus and I think you're town, so if I can open your mind to voting him over me, I think that's incredibly helpful.

I'm happy to look again at Nexus, but pretty much any post anyone makes can be batted away with the "Could marginally competent scum fake this?" line. I can list the posts that make me think Nexus is town, and you'll drop that line, and that's kinda conversation over. And if you are talking about ‘could a scum easily fake this’ then the line ‘so now it's on me to save the town. Which will probably fail and I've got things to do, but I'll feel bad if I don't try’ ticks just about all the boxes to me, plus it has a nice level of emotional blackmail in there to boot.

I agree I could easily fake that and that you shouldn't townread me over it. I think it's very easy to fall into the trap of townreading lurkers for posting that sort of thing because it feels like you have nothing else to go, but that is very much a trap.

So I don’t know what to say. I don’t believe there will be any posts in this game that don’t manage to fall in to the "Could marginally competent scum fake this?" pile – we’ve been at this a fair old whilst now and no one has pointed one out yet, I certainly haven’t. If you have some up your sleeve, now feels like the time to drop them.

What I'm looking for when scumhunting is to find genuine-sounding stuff either combination with depth, some real sign that they have looked at what's going on and thought to themselves "what is this person doing? why are they doing it? are they likely to fake it?" or in combination with some eccentricity that would make it unlikely that the underlying thought would even occur to scum. I feel like it's been fairly obvious that I've been trying to elicit that in my questions to Menno and Wenna and I think would be a good reason to town-read me. And part of the reason I'm suspicious of Nexus and Wenna is because I feel I can notice the absence of what I'm looking for (Wenna calls me "cunning"; if I were scum, what would I be trying to accomplish cunningly? asking Menno questions to try and elicit a town story about their quickhammer? openly advocating for Menno's death which puts me a target on my back? it feels actively disconnected from a hypothetical scum!me)

So it brings me back to my original point – why aren’t you executed? And why are the people who are not voting CES right now seeming like pretty ambivalent towards the whole situation? Or at the very least not frantically trying to come to some kind of group conclusion. I personally don’t want this game to go to a last-minute decision, that feels like a loss to me. I can only see that scum want that.

Just take the concrete example of a Nexus-Wenna-Fenchurch scum team. I don't think anything that's happened Today is inconsistent with that. No one's super active and it's page 21 so town isn't particularly confident and it's only scum that have a clear goal.

Edited for pronouns. Please keep on top of this! - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I don't find Nexus town for the aloof shit posting though, I find them town because when they haven't done that they've often posted what I was thinking at the time myself, and also often going against the direction that I felt the the flow of the game was being steered. I can look at these posts and not see an obvious reason why scum!Nexus would post them. They don't steer to what I would see as a potential scum agenda. For me, they all pass your tests.

If you mean calling Menno town, I think Menno had some of the same sort of superficial genuine-seeming stuff that I didn't find convincing in the slights, but I don't think there's anything special about Nexus picking up on that and deciding to call Menno town. Some sign that they considered both that and the quickhammer, weighing them up as to what was more telling, would be a minimum requirements to pass my tests.

Create what type of situation? Do you think the Menno wagon was all town?

The situation I'm talking about is having dueling wagons on town - it can very easily lead into a narrative that if it's not one, then it's the other. 0 or 1 scum at the Mennowagon wouldn't surprise me at this stage, but that's not really the point. The idea that there was no motivation for scum to do anything than vote Menno is just patently untrue - avoiding some amount of scrutiny while setting up a future misexecution is pure upside if it's available.

That's all I have time for now.

Edited for term replacement. - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Given the situation we're in, we might also need Postie to jailkeep scum to stand a chance at winning, so I'd rather stay at evens.

What about me trying to save cpol (after Menno kill) by defending them by explaining why a baddy vendor would hand him a potato (repeatedly, including the first suggestion of the possibility, and trying to shut down useless potato talk [repeatedly instigated by you {amongst others}]), and then explaining my regret that I did not move my vote from Postie to CES which could potentially have saved Menno (who I read as town, and had also defended) because I did not predict Menno voting themselves, so since moved my vote to CES?

This is pure revisionism. First off, I actually mentioned why a potato vendor might save cpol first (back in #183) but more importantly, you followed up your attempt to "save cpol" by indicating a willingness to vote for him.

You also absolutely did not defend Menno (e.g. #335 is still very open to a Mennoexecution; the fact that you cast shade on ~5 other people is sort of hilarious and doesn't meaningfully affect the central point). You cannot seriously claim you read Menno as town and defended them when you made this post:

So that's 4 votes each on Menno and CES with only Porochaz (and me) left to vote...

I thought the day ended in 25 minutes but it turns out I don't know what days are, so that's good.

Only 24 hours left!

If your best example of town behaviour is not voting for someone you thought was suspicious over someone you claim you thought was town and letting them be executed as a result, I think that speaks volumes.

Vote: Wenna

Edited for term replacement - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I was clearly saying that I did not want to kill Menno or cpol, even if it solved mysteries, because it seemed to be doing what baddies wanted, i.e. that Menno/cpol were town. It's more important to save town than solve mysteries (created by baddies).

#335

literally

contains the phrases "So they could be either baddy or goody." (referring to Menno) and you've also snipped out "So I'm conflicted." from your quote (i.e. you intentionally removed that line from the middle of your quote).

Can we execute Wenna now?

(And yeah, I guess I was wrong about the specific potato vendor claim. I don't think that's nearly as relevant.)

Edited for term replacement - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

From there, their initial land was on Postie during the big old Menno discussion. I'm again not sure why scum!Wenna would do that. They've already built up the lurker reputation, either sitting back and letting the Menno waggon continue, or contibuting to it feels like the scum!Wenna play there

But sitting back and letting the Mennowagon happen is basically exactly what she does! She may vote for Postie but the only reasoning she gives is hidden in some parenthetical in a different post. That's a toothless vote, unlikely to ever sway anything.

And can you really tell me that you can read #335 and think her claim that she thought Menno was town/she defended them is remotely plausible? I'm not sure if it's pure scum revisionism (it seems like you could get away with this for sure in real life) or if she actually misremembered how much she fence sat (with the obvious goal of letting a town execution happen without taking any responsibility for it) but she's doubled down on this obvious falsehood, so I don't think the motivation is actually that important.

Edited for pronouns - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I can read it that at the time Wenna thought that Menno could be town, maybe even strongly thought he was, but given the game runs on doubt didn't want to fully commit to the case at the time. And that with that in hindsight she believes she was stronger on that case than she was, but yes, I would agree there wasn't a staunch defence of Menno.

And then in #338 she notes it 4-4 between supposedly a town read and a suspect and decides not to bother voting? Come on. No amount of inexperience in forum mafia or doubt explains that.

On the flipside, if Wenna was scum, and we assume that the scum saved me with the potato, why would she have been trying so hard to play devils advocate and stop that particular topic of conversation?

I think that's partly undermined by later jokes (?) about voting you to end that saga. To be honest, I still don't really get why scum would potato vendor you - it seems more hopeful than a good strategy; it certainly seems pretty unlikely all 3 scum would be on the anti-cpol train because that would be a terrible strategy. The idea that the scum strategy was to create 2 misexecutions in you and Menno, deliberately avoid them themselves and count on the town to do their dirty work, thereby setting them up for the rest of the game actually seems somewhat appealing (especially in terms of explaining why you survived.)

@CES

Would you go for a Fenchurch execution?

If the alternative is me, yes, of course. We can only lose once anyway.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES remains my preference since the very sudden very strong commitment to a Wenna scumread once he was put on the chopping block feels out of character given his behaviour the rest of the game

I already thought she was slightly more suspicious than Nexus previously (but I thought Nexus seemed a more realistic execution, which seemed relevant given the circumstances) and then she tried to pass herself off as having been on the good side of the misexecution Yesterday. This feels pretty straightforward to me. Her claimed beliefs are in direct contradiction to what she said and to her actions Yesterday and these claims fit exactly in the narrative that scum had been pushing, that Menno was the bad execution and as the alternative I must have been the good execution.

Edited for term replacement - CDB

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Oh well, that's probably game over. Outside chance it's Fenchurch and Wenna but seems like Fen's drawing unnecessary attention to herself if so.

Anyway, I might as well make the point that I got out of bed to make. Let's look again at #338 and reason about it as explicitly as possible. Town!Wenna according to what she's said since thought Menno was town and thought I was suspicious. Her vote is currently uselessly on Postie, she notes the vote is tied at 4-4 with a decision to make. It seems to me that the course of action is beyond obvious - you vote for me. It is an important decision and she's claimed some reticence about forum mafia but there's a difference between being reticent and just not playing the game. (I also normally think of Wenna as being fairly confident. There's no reason to defer to Porochaz.)

Contrast to what this looks like as scum!Wenna: the Day was going great up until now with only townies up for execution but now it's 4-4 and the game does actually need her vote. It's suddenly a terrible bind because if she takes the obvious course of action, there's a very good chance it's the deciding vote, she's inherently going to be on the "wrong" side and going to attract further scrutiny due to her decisive role. Of course scum!Wenna prefers not to place a vote here.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well played, my scum buddies. I also don't necessarily don't think the town played too badly; the game could've gone very differently if Myko's attempt to vig Nexus had succeeded.

Postie not pushing for a no-elim when they were a jailkeeper seemed off. But then they didn't quick hammer. Really confusing end game from an outside perspective.

Yeah, the traitor made for a bit of a weird endgame, as evidenced by the fact the final misexecution only had one scum voting for them.