Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[Jahudo]

DP -- I'm looking into other GW games as you suggested, and your meta-ing so far seems to be an honest play. My apologies.

I still can't find the game(s).

I also wish to point out that Jahudo said my logic made some sense, and he wanted to hear what you thought of certain issues

I liked your effort of scumhunting back then on pacman but I didn't agree/disagree with the points you brought up. I'm not sure what pacman did was a scum tell because SK does not work with scum, so scum could have more reason to kill them than bus fellow scum. More importantly, I felt that you caught pacman not being an involved contributer to a main discussion. He was more on the side of the discussion talking about setup.

I have a few questions to pacman about why his suspects:

Porochaz: Weird. Confirmed. It's funny how did he meta (or catch breadcrumb? or what?) in X and he did make it correct... Also his "breadcrumb" (that might not be it as well) is weird...

I think poro joke voted because of his meta on X. What breadcrumb are you talking about?

kloud1516: Not completely sure about him. Some good comments, some not-good ones, some bad ones... I don't know what to say about him...

Why aren't the bad ones making you think he's scum/anti-town? Why aren't the good ones making you think he's town/pro-town? Are they not strong enough to get a read? Are they cancelling each other out so it's more of a neutral read?

LlammaFluff: Didn't understand him well...

Do you have a specific reason?

[Porochaz]

What breadcrumb are you talking about?

[Porochaz]

Jack of all Trades, they usually have a range of one shot abilities they can use.

[Kmd4390]

Dukes, no, if you are town, you win if the town wins. Regardless of staying alive.

JOAT is Jack Of All Trades. A standard JOAT gets an investigation, a protection, a role block, and a kill. (Someone tell me if I got those right or not.) The JOAT in Family Guy Mafia was far from a standard JOAT. I'm having a hard time trying to remember what he got specifically, but I know I remember he jailed someone one night ,and another night gave someone a double vote which was busdriven by a device created by the inventor. Point is, with Farside as our Mod, expect the unexpected.

[Jahudo]

JOAT is Jack Of All Trades.

Wiki doesn't elaborate on which roles they will have, but just says that once a role is used, it can't be used again. I'd never heard of this, but anything is possible as long as the game balancing is there.

[kloud1516]

Kloud, I read your Dukes vote as going after an easy target.

He makes some posts after a couple of votes, and you come in, show a couple of slightly scummy things, and lay down a vote.

It looks like an "ok, people are right. Here's scum. Vote. Ok bye." kind of post.

These accusations are very flawed, in my opinion, and I will elaborate on why:

Okay, so... just to let you guys know, I've been reading a few other games here on MS.n and frankly, it amazes me how long they are. Most online games I've done last under 500 posts. Total. For 20+ players.

Then again, there's a lot of "Follow the Cop" and "Bandwagons" over there... so if my play seems uninspired or erratic at first, I apologize -- I'm just getting used to a slower game.

Not sure how to approach this quote. Sure, I understand completely that, when going from one site to another, some things are going to get lost in translation, but at the same time I can't help but feel that this may be a tactic to explain/justify actions later on. Am I certain that this is the case in this situation? No, of course not, for everyone makes mistakes their first couple games (at least I did), but I thought I should point this out.

Happy Birthday Mod.

Let's see here... since it appears everyone confirmed... hey, a vote on me already? Oh, sure, pick on the new guy!

**

I hate day starts -- a stab in the dark never helps if it can be avoided -- and would prefer a No Lynch here, to be honest. So for now, I'll sit back and wait.

*chugs a beer*

The paragraph I have starred stands out to me, as the later ideas within it are pretty bold. You would prefer a No Lynch without having even gone a page into the game? Secondly, you want to sit back and wait? What exactly do you mean by this, for it seems to be someone dropping an idea in and seeing how others respond to it before proceeding any further. No lynches should not even be an option at this point, as by page one, the game is usually still in the random voting stage, which inevitably leads into serious play based off of certain things in the very beginning of the game that come off as scummy.

In essence, town is usually not 100% sure about anything (which goes doubly in a game modded by Farside ). You say stabs in the dark won't help, but neither would a No lynch, as that gives us little to no information to go on for the next day while it gives scum a kill.

why in the world would you want a no lynch already on day one Dukes?

I never understood starting with a shot in the dark. Shouldn't we give the Cop a chance to find something instead of pulling a name out of a hat that, for all we know,

is

the Cop?

I mean, I'm willing to do a lynch for certain if we come up with ironclad evidence, but for now, screw it. All My Circuits is on.

There is plenty of information that can be acquired from day one. From comments, votes, and other opinions provided in the random voting stage, players begin discussion about who they find to be suspicious. Usually, town can then discern from responses to accusations whom they find to be scummy as well. Then there are bandwagons, which can be very informational depending on the reasoning behind them and the results they produce. All these factors would give a cop, and the rest of the town, a chance to find something of value for not only the day at hand, but for days to follow.
Okay, I am going to have to break this down into several segments, as I am in a hurry right now, but need to get something up in this game to actually contribute. I will start with early material and make my way into the present situation in the game.

I would like to start off by welcoming everyone, and putting my game face on. Here it goes:

Role hinting much?

Ya think?

Fair enough, but why Xtoxm exactly? He posted before the day started, and there are others that have yet to post or even confirm.

He already had a vote. Seemed safe. Anyway, now that I've done enough damage to this popsicle stand,

Unvote.

Not much else going on here... so I'll be back later.

So you voted him just because he seemed to be the safest route? Got it. Wouldn't want to draw attention to yourself, right?

FoS: Dukes

My first post involving content from the thread. The very first one I posted once coming back from v/la. At this point, there were no votes on Dukes, so to say "It looks like an "ok, people are right. Here's scum. Vote. Ok bye." kind of post," is utterly fallacious. Furthermore, I did not drop a vote on him, as clearly shown above. I leveled a FoS, so you saying that I popped into the game after activity, listed some things I found wrong with content he provided from pages 1-6, and then voted him for said content is utterly incorrect.

Yes, the points I addressed in this post were early points that stood out to me in regards to Duke's play, but I did not feel that they were enough to vote him (which is why only a FoS was dropped.)

Then Day 2 came around the corner, and posts such as:

I'm getting some town vibes from Llama and kloud. wolf and pacman need to post more about different stuff. Dukes could be scum but I get this kind of gut feeling on

new players not used to the slower pace

either. He's worth looking at more though.

Bingo!

I really do not like when people try to excuse anything that may be considered suspicious by others with the new card. I acknowledge that a change in pace takes time to get acclimated with, but responses like those above are not particular favorites of mine, as the defense based off inexperience then tends to be used to the point of ad nauseam.

Anyway, since it appears my train of thought is finally on a good track, I'll make it official:

FoS: Pacman

What do you mean by "since my train of though appears to be on a good track?"

In which Dukes seems to jump at the chance to use Jahudo's comment of him most likely simply trying to get acclimated with the slower pace as a means of defending things that others had deemed suspicious by this point. The way in which he responds to Jahudo's post made me go back to the first statement I made in this game:

Not sure how to approach this quote. Sure, I understand completely that, when going from one site to another, some things are going to get lost in translation,

but at the same time I can't help but feel that this may be a tactic to explain/justify actions later on.

Am I certain that this is the case in this situation? No, of course not, for everyone makes mistakes their first couple games (at least I did), but I thought I should point this out.

And then comes:

1. Because it seemed like people were getting derailed. They were arguing over whether Poro was or wasn't a scum player. Meanwhile, a REAL scum player was sitting there needing to be lynched.

2. And...
3. Because I have no ironclad evidence, I have nothing more than a random suspicion, and every time I suggest something I become more and more suspicious in everyone's minds.

So, as both a townie and as a player, it's in

my

best interest to shut up and let the investigation go the way it's supposed to.

I believe Pacman is the most likely scum at this point due to his "bomb/jester" explanation. But he won't be around for two more days.

So I'm not sure what my next act should be, especially since every other thought I've had seems to turn people against me.

So I'll ask you now: what do you want from me?

1) No. Not at all. If you are indeed town, then you should be taking into consideration what will be most beneficial for town, and not just what is in your own best interest. It is never in the best interest of the town for a player to simply shut up, as we then lose one voice in the conversation. Debate, discussion, and participation from all players is a vital aspect of scoring a town win, and this is what a townie should be working for.

2) Slight Appeal to Emotion?

vote: Dukes

Where I

do

indeed drop a vote on him. As shown above, Dukes intended to do what he felt was best for him. In this case, he claimed that he would shut up in order to avoid more suspicion from people. Neither him claiming he wanted to do what was best to advance him further in the game nor his plan to be quieter so that he didn't come off as suspicious anymore do not resemble any pro-town qualities to me. Deliberately being unhelpful by not contributing to discussion (through "shutting up"), and trying to advance one's self instead of trying to work for the town cause are factors that I found and still find scummy.

The appeal to emotion did not help either.

Next comes:

There were two votes (at least I believe so) on you, when the needed number of votes to lynch was/is six at this point. FoSes do not put you closer to a lynch in any way, so you were nowhere close to "being doomed." The full claim at L-4 was completely unnecessary, and as others have already pointed out, claiming Bender does not do much to change my suspicions, even if he was more "anti-hero," as you say.

It was at L-3, or more importantly, L/2. I had 2 votes at the top of the page and one added halfway through, meaning I was at the point where if we ran out of time I was a goner. Plus enough FoS's were thrown at me that, if they acted on them, it was lynch time.

Pac, I'm saying you're acting scummy because it bore a very strong resemblance to an OMGUS FoS.

I also wish to point out that Jahudo said my logic made some sense,

and he wanted to hear what you thought of certain issues -- issues you haven't addressed because you'd rather attack the Easy Target who's halfway to the gallows anyhow. Go find his post before you spout off on the target everyone else is looking at -- or re-affirming the bandwagon you tried to start.

Vote: Pacman

And what, Dukes, makes you feel that Jahudo's statement about your logic making sense is authoritative (not meant to insult you Jahudo)? What makes his opinion much more valuable than those of people that find you suspicious? Pointing out that someone agrees with you is fine, but the way you present the fact that Jahudo found your logic to make sense in the post above emits a faint Appeal to Authority vibe (at least to me it does).

In which Dukes attempts to use Jahudo's earlier statements as a means of verifying/crediting his own opinions.

[kloud1516]

Kloud, I read your Dukes vote as going after an easy target.

He makes some posts after a couple of votes, and you come in, show a couple of slightly scummy things, and lay down a vote.

It looks like an "

ok, people are right

. Here's scum. Vote. Ok bye." kind of post.

I would also like to address this underlined section. As phrased, it implies that I simply dropped a vote based off the cases made by others. This, as can be clearly seen above, is not the case in the slightest sense. My opinions have been, in most senses, dependent of opinions and reasoning provided by other players, so to insinuate that my train of thought was "Okay, people are right in suspecting him, so I will vote for him," is utterly fallacious.

[Kmd4390]

Kloud, I was talking Day 2 where you DID put the 3rd vote on an easy target. I see now that you were suspicious of him on Day 1. Still, Dukes looks more like scumbait than scum right now.

It looks like Dukes was under the impression he had to stay alive in order to win. Now that I have clarified that for him, I expect more scumhunting and less worrying so much about looking good.

I was about to say that your vote wasn't as much wagoning as I thought because of the Day 1 suspcions, but:

I would also like to address this underlined section. As phrased, it implies that I simply dropped a vote based off the cases made by others. This, as can be clearly seen above, is not the case in the slightest sense.

My opinions have been, in most senses, dependent of opinions and reasoning provided by other players

, so to insinuate that my train of thought was "Okay, people are right in suspecting him, so I will vote for him," is utterly fallacious.

[kloud1516]

Kloud, I was talking Day 2 where you DID put the 3rd vote on an easy target. I see now that you were suspicious of him on Day 1. Still, Dukes looks more like scumbait than scum right now.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but I do not agree with you on this point.

I was about to say that your vote wasn't as much wagoning as I thought because of the Day 1 suspcions, but:

I would also like to address this underlined section. As phrased, it implies that I simply dropped a vote based off the cases made by others. This, as can be clearly seen above, is not the case in the slightest sense.

My opinions have been, in most senses, dependent of opinions and reasoning provided by other players

, so to insinuate that my train of thought was "Okay, people are right in suspecting him, so I will vote for him," is utterly fallacious.

Depended is supposed to be independent there . My opinions were, in most senses, independent of opinions and reasoning provided by other players. When looking at the section I bolded above, the message I was trying to get across becomes clear. The "in most senses," just for clarity, entails me agreeing with certain points made by others. As shown with the posts I provided in 255, it is blatantly evident that my arguments were not relying on/playing off of the arguments of others -- which was the point I was trying to make in 256.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I figured that was a typo. Just thought I'd make sure though.

[Dukes]

I am curious what this breadcrumb is as well, Pacman. The only people I can see who have crumbed are myself and Wolf.

And to the rest of the town, I do apologize for the misguided behavior. Let's get crackin'.

About Gorrad's quasi-breadcrumb: anyone who knows Futurama knows Zoidberg is a doctor and not a good one. I didn't take that as breadcrumbing so much as theme knowledge.

I have a fingerNAIL of suspicion for Zorblag, and I would like some discussion on it: During day 1, he was unwilling to vote for the SK under the idea that we needed to talk more, a line of reasoning I didn't understand then and don't necessarily agree with now. The only other thing he's done is lean on me repeatedly, almost to the exclusion of the rest of the game. Basically, ever since my "could Poro and X be in cahoots" post, which even I admit is far-fetched, I haven't seen him say anything concrete about anyone else.

At all.

While Poro is very low on my list of suspects, I suggest we keep an eye out on him as the day progresses. Yes, he "found" Xtoxm, but that might have been a lucky shot. I've been too eager to clear him based on this, so I'll just go more slowly and re-evaluate.

Earlier posts make me feel more confident moving Jahudo to the town side of the ledger. He made early arguments for keeping the SK alive and seeing if we could use him to our benefit, but so far in Day 2 he's been good at picking others apart, especially Pacman. And yes, I'm biased because Pacman is my prime suspect right now.

KMD and Kloud -- at this point I don't feel comfortable talking about it, so I'll let those two debate some more before coming to a verdict.

[Kmd4390]

Dukes, discussion is good for the town. That is generally accepted here.

What is uncomfortable about Kloud and myself?

[wolframnhart]

Wolf, you jumped on Xtoxm's wagon quickly. Not that it's bad to jump on a claimed SK, but Mafia wants SK dead more than anyone else. Also, you come out on Day 2 and backpedal on your stance on Porochaz. At the end of the post, you look more like you are playing both sides on Porochaz.

I realize that a mafia member would want an SK dead, and i will agree that they probably want the SK dead more then anyone else because that means they are not safe at night either, but i voted Xtoxm because I did not want to see multiple deaths at night, because there was no guarentee that Xtoxm would a) Target scum b)Target someone who the town agreed on (which i think he made apparent later when he said Gorrad was a volunteer for his NK) and c)If he did go along and NK a person the town agreed on, there was no guarentee that it wouldn't be scum driven
So i weighed that and decided on my vote.

[LlamaFluff]

So, I decided to not believe the claim, and

I tried to find out what did he try to do with that.

I failed, and he was indeed a SK.

Where did you try and do this? You suggested it at one point but you never actually made any attempts that I saw.

@wolf - Do you think poro is at all suspicious?

[pacman281292]

Answering questions/replying comments. If I missed a question, please tell me, and I'll answer.

I have a few questions to pacman about why his suspects:

Porochaz: Weird. Confirmed. It's funny how did he meta (or catch breadcrumb? or what?) in X and he did make it correct... Also his "breadcrumb" (that might not be it as well) is weird...

I think poro joke voted because of his meta on X. What breadcrumb are you talking about?

kloud1516: Not completely sure about him. Some good comments, some not-good ones, some bad ones... I don't know what to say about him...

Why aren't the bad ones making you think he's scum/anti-town? Why aren't the good ones making you think he's town/pro-town? Are they not strong enough to get a read? Are they cancelling each other out so it's more of a neutral read?

LlammaFluff: Didn't understand him well...

Do you have a specific reason?

1) His very first posts were weird, and all people began to talk abot a supposed "breadcrumb" (the only thing I saw was "Come On People!"), and I got really confused. And it's NOT a suspicion; it's a weird thing I couldn't analyze well...
2) I'm not completely sure about him, as I've said; I don't know if the good points beat the bad ones (townish read) or if the bad ones beat the good ones (scummy read), so I don't know if I must say "townish" or "scummy"
3) I don't know. I've not read his posts well, and I didn't catch something into them... no idea why...

The only people I can see who have crumbed are myself and Wolf.

mm maybe you... but wolf? where?!
I didn't get what was happening with Poro's first posts (read above, point 1) and I got badly confused.

Where did you try and do this? You suggested it at one point but you never actually made any attempts that I saw.

I must not keep yelling it. I tried to analyze what he tried to do with that claim, trying to read well his posts... and I epic-failed .

[wolframnhart]

@Llama

No i do not find Poro suspicious right now. His posts have seemed pro-town to me, especially with his disagreement on a lurker (GW who is now being replaced) wagon.

I do have a question for you though llama, what do you think of Dukes trying to get us to focus on each other again (no trying to say we forgot about each other but you know what i mean) when he is under fire?

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

I need to reread this game as there have been a few things nagging at the back of my mind.

[pacman281292]

@MOD: Requesting Votecount, please...

[Dukes]

KMD -- there's a lot of negativity here, and because you just arrived, I can't tell if it's sorting things out or finding a scum or what's going on. I only mean there's a disturbance in the force, but I can't tell what sort. So while discussion is good, I haven't formulated my thoughts yet, so half-bakery is bad.

Pacman -- Check Page 8.

Llama -- It's not a matter of playing the two of you off of each other. It's a matter of there was a bit of a fight, and I didn't know if it was resolved.

[farside22]

This vote count is brought to you by Pacman:
Pacman can't wait for next top of page vote count:

Dukes 3 votes: (pacman281292, Zorblag, kloud1516 )
pacman281292 2 vote: (dukes, Kmd4390)

Not voting:

LlamaFluff
Jahudo
wolframnhart
Drunken Piper
Porochaz

Day 2 Deadline Nov 18th 4:00pm PST
With 10 alive it will take 6 to lynch.

[Porochaz]

Do we still get a votecount next top of page?

Yes.

[Kmd4390]

The only people I can see who have crumbed are myself and Wolf.

mm maybe you... but wolf? where?!

Breadcrumbs are hidden for a reason.

KMD -- there's a lot of negativity here, and because you just arrived, I can't tell if it's sorting things out or finding a scum or what's going on. I only mean there's a disturbance in the force, but I can't tell what sort. So while discussion is good, I haven't formulated my thoughts yet, so half-bakery is bad.

It's never bad to lay out your exact thoughts as town. Can you clarify what you mean by negativity please?

[Dukes]

Okay, it's like this: you come in guns blazing and say you think Kloud's behavior is suspicious. He fires back with a long diatribe otherwise, but it's based on my behavior, so I understand why he feels he was justified. Then you say "Wait! You said x and that's not good!" Then he says "That's not what I meant." Then... yeah, at this point it sounds more like two townies getting on the same page rather than a successful scum-find, but for a while I was trying to decide whose wine to drink.

As it stands, there aren't too many people I can clear, of course. I'm still curious what others think of Zorblag having blinders on me, and my vote remains with Pacman until further notice. It appears Llama and Wolf have made peace with each other, so that's another pair I need to re-evaluate. DP's couplets sound forced and rather off-meter -- was there anyone at Planet Express who was a bad poet? Poro I need to re-read, but... yeah. This game is amazingly tricky. So, at this point let's recap:

KMD vs Kloud -- sounds like a misunderstanding; neither side is too scummy for suspicion yet.
Wolf vs Llama -- I'll wait to see how Llama reposts, but for now Wolf appears clear.
Pacman -- gives off a very bad vibe for reasons I've said in the past.
Zorblag -- seems hellbent on lynching me, so take that for what you will.
Jahudo -- playing his cards somewhat close to the vest, but doesn't register on my ScumDar.
Poro -- playing decently, although hasn't really said much to give a good read, much like Jah.
DP -- Are the couplets a clue? I'd like to see a tad more activity from him.

[Kmd4390]

Okay, it's like this: you come in guns blazing and say you think Kloud's behavior is suspicious. He fires back with a long diatribe otherwise, but it's based on my behavior, so I understand why he feels he was justified. Then you say "Wait! You said x and that's not good!" Then he says "That's not what I meant." Then... yeah, at this point it sounds more like two townies getting on the same page rather than a successful scum-find, but for a while I was trying to decide whose wine to drink.

Ok, take out the exaggerations and you've got it.

Try it like this:

Okay, it's like this: you come in

guns blazing

and say you think Kloud's behavior is suspicious. He

fires back with a long diatribe

[says] otherwise, but it's based on my behavior, so I understand why he feels he was justified. Then you say "Wait! You said x and that's not good!" Then he says "That's not what I meant."

Then... yeah, at this point it sounds more like two townies getting on the same page rather than a successful scum-find, but for a while I was trying to decide whose wine to drink.

[Then you see the typo]

I think most of what you are seeing is non-issue. I first said that Kloud was going after an easy target in you. He shows that he

was

in fact suspicious of you from day 1. My point stands though, that he put the 3rd vote on an easy target on Day 2. The Day 1 suspicion does somewhat lessen that which is why he is only my 3rd suspect right now.

[Porochaz]

DP always plays with couplets, I can give you an example in a couple of days if needed. Please dont read into it him doing that, its not a PR.