Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[fireisredsir]

Exactly one role may have abilities that exceed this scope and violate the above guidelines.

He didn't mention this, which was my point.
Were you aware that this was in the rules?

-Reason

i did not consider the possibility that the stated role would directly go counter to the example stated. but you're right, as the rules are written it is technically possible

[Lady Lambdadelta]

v/la to tuesday

ego

[fireisredsir]

Fire feels only slightly different. But it’s kind of like a flavor more than a substance change.

im trying to be more srs mode due to the postcap!! less fluff!

i think you kind of feel different as well, altho it's hard to say this early. do you think there could be a reason for that?

[Lukewarm]

Datisi wagon bad imo

Think Datisi >Rand town

Scum on Datisi probably VP and or Marci?

Possibly a late vote like fay

I find this wagon analysis confusing. When you say it is bad, do you mean scummy?

And if you think the wagon is scummy, why are you most suspicious of the first and second vote on the wagon, over votes 3-5?

---

something about the way he voted Marci, and then after that, saying he hadnt seen it before, in 97 called out a post as sus when my response to it finding it suspicious was right there...

I am not sure what you mean by this. I read up to post 85 (the most recent post at the time), and then started typing my big post. By the time I finished it, Marci made post 86. I was saying that I wrote the section about marci from my big post before post 86 from marci ever existed.

(And yes, I am aware that there is a long time between Marci making 86 and me posting 94. Mid post I kinda got lost in doing some meta on Kovu and some meta on Meuh that did not end up making the post because I kinda talked myself out of the point as I went).

It does feel odd to see someone say they’re confident they’re scum then start asking questions

I spotted a thing that made me think she was more likely to be scum, I started digging into it. Are you truly surprised at follow up questions there?

[fireisredsir]

I am not sure what you mean by this. I read up to post 85 (the most recent post at the time), and then started typing my big post. By the time I finished it, Marci made post 86. I was saying that I wrote the section about marci from my big post before post 86 from marci ever existed.

(And yes, I am aware that there is a long time between Marci making 86 and me posting 94. Mid post I kinda got lost in doing some meta on Kovu and some meta on Meuh that did not end up making the post because I kinda talked myself out of the point as I went).

the preview tool exists and you have been known to use it. idk, i think its just the way you phrased it, like "I didn't even see this post. She's definitely just scum" felt sort of... too self-descriptive? to me it kind of felt like you wanted to have some sort of progression on her so that it wasn't just all in one post, and so it looks like your read is continuing to develop as you see new things. i think there's clear scum motivation to doing that

its a pretty minor thing and yea maybe you didn't see the post in preview or maybe you didn't want to mention it in a pedit bc you wanted to quote it... but it is something that made me hesitant

[takotsubo syndrome]

OK so, I don't like posts 32 or 34 because I don't like the way they are hopping on to Datisi this early. 39 Is not the same in my mind.

As for Datisi, I think they are pretty good at faking tone as scum, at least at the start of the game, I don't have a read on them right now. I don't consider that to be contradictory to the above because I am not reading them as scum

How do you feel about his lack of reaction to those votes?

Even if early, and even if some aren't serious, they're there. One of them had a... nudge, in Datisi's direction. ("Did you roll scum again?")

And then there's just not an indication that this is a worry in his head. Towny or scummy to you?

I have to say that this might lean more towards a Datisi town rather than a Datisi scum for the nonchalant behavior.

UNVOTE: datisi

takotsubo syndrome – ok this one is funny, I initially Town leaned Tako, like “oh, game has a really slow pace, but tako still made an entrance!! That’s good!!” but then that was it, and they jumped on the datisi votes with just “did you roll scum again” like, that’s it? What specific posts made you feel that way? If you wanted the RVS votes to be taken seriously, why not make up a reason at the very least?? So cause of that you lost your town lean - null

For me my vote was more of a reaction test on Datisi. Which obviously has a chance to be skewed, but I'm ok with it for what it produced.

In other news I really like 81. So currently I have a soft townread on that slot as well.

takosubo's entrance (10) felt off to me, especially coming from an alt that from what I can tell has never played with Bell before. Like a level of familiarity with bell to know that he normally is pretty easy to read, but a strange way to approach him if you are familiar. I don't know that it is more likely to come from scum, but it did catch my attention.

I am an alt account. I have also played a bunch of games with the better half of this player list. Bell is probably one of the easiest players to read for me so my post was really in jest in regards to an RVS vote.

On a side note: 94 has also given me a soft townread on that slot.

Marci also feels town on vibes.

[Val89]

I wonder, particularly given the use in the previous post, if I understand 'vibes' to mean something different to others. I voted datisi because something felt off about his posting in a way I was (and still am) unable to fully articulate - datisi suggests in 60 it is an awkwardness, and perhaps that is one way to describe it - if I was to make a better attempt, I think the early interactions with VP felt a little contrived, like it was trying to get out in front of something. I'm not usually a player to rely on the feels or gut, or whatever, and the fact that ping was going off at this early stage in the game was plenty sufficient for me to place a vote there.

Having not been given any articulated reasons for the suspicion falling on him, I find no fault in datisi essentially ignoring them. Takotsubo above suggests this is slightly town indicative, but putting myself in datisi's shoes, I can't see how you would play differently as either alignment, for the reasons given in 60 and therefore can't consider it alignment indicative either way. I'm left with whatever it was that pinged me in the first place, which hasn't gone away albeit datisi has had little opportunity since. I am leaving my vote there, but I do have to scratch my head at the the takotsubo unvote. I could understand moving the vote, but a naked unvote seems a little odd to me, particularly if, as claimed, the vote was intended as a reaction test.

Moving to the wagon more widely, the fact that one did build up to +50% of the votes required to hammer before encountering resistance is interesting. It appears to me that, given that nobody has come out with a good articulated reason for the wagon, either some portion of the player-list also got the heeby-jeebies from datisi early on, or mafia have taken a early run at a town!datisi and artificially inflated the feeling of unease around the slot. I also acknowledge that it could well be elements of both, but I think if so, the majority is likely to fall into the former category, given that it should be fairly obvious a quick-wagon was never going to succeed on a town!datisi without at least some semi-reasonable basis and scum could expect to be called out once it stalled. The conclusions I draw from that are: a) there may well be something in the early feelings I had around datisi, and my vote can stay there while I look into the assertion that datisi is wagoned early all the time because of an awkwardness that isn't alignment indicative (I am unlikely to have time to do so today, so help in that regard would also be appreciated) and b) I think I can reasonably be suspicious of those slots who resisted the datisi wagon and threw shade on the members of it, on the basis that there was a wagon. I would be less concerned if they had cause to townread datisi themselves, but I see no evidence for it.

I was about to spell out who it is I mean by that, but it probably obvious whom falls into that category and I am wondering if, given the invictus mechanic, if this is a game I ought to be telegraphing exactly how my reads stand at all times. In regular games, I think that is largely how one should play, although I know there are disagreements on that score, but I wonder if the argument for playing ones cards closer to ones chest is stronger in this game than others. One the one hand, if you are right and are openly suspecting scum that might dissuade them from killing you at night and leaves you alive to continue to push those scum, but if you are wrong, and scum can reasonably infer you might have another town as the target of your invictus, there is the risk of handing scum a free two-for-one. Given the number of D1 TvT shitfights I have found myself in over the course of my mafia career, I am inclined not to choreograph my exact moves at least for today and until I feel much more comfortable I am on the right track.

Apologises to those who dislike wall posts, but I not sure of the alternative here.

[Dunnstral]

Having played with Datisi recently and in the past, I was not under the impression that they were somebody who was wagoned early or that they came a cross as awkward early

Lukewarm gammagooey town for voting Marci

Datisi wagon bad imo

Think Datisi >Rand town

Scum on Datisi probably VP and or Marci?

Possibly a late vote like fay

Rhyme and reason post restriction is distracting

Bell needs to place a vote

Other nonvoters just need to post

You're not voting Marcy though

I have to say that this might lean more towards a Datisi town rather than a Datisi scum for the nonchalant behavior.

Are you basing this off of anything or just feelings?

[Datisi]

welp, i was kinda looking forward to there being only 6 pages, but i see most of them are wallposts... why are y'all taking this post restriction so seriously

oh yeah, the pentameter keeps distracting me because i keep reading the lines with beats in mind without actually thinking about the content of them

I actually like Fey for bandwagoning to Datisi, but don't really have any opinion on the other votes or anyone else rlly

why is her vote different than any of the others?

Attributing that reasoning to votes dropped with little to no explanation seems like a self-serving stretch.
Datisi acting as if it's surprising for people to be critical of him not engaging with the push rubs me the wrong way too.

i can sense when i am being off beat. i was being off beat in the early game. and it's not like there has been any other content that people could be voting me for.

i didn't say it was surprising. where did you get that idea?

i thought i remembered a game where he kept doubting his reads and going back and forth on them

this does sound like my towngame. the funny thing about being scum though is that i don't actually have to form reads.

i actually do think ur scum, and i actually do have reasons

i'm dying to know.

it does more often happen when i'm scum, though i think not exclusively.

This was my impression, which....

...yes, i know what it looks like. the most recent example of people jumping onto my ass early was in that large game where i was scum, so like, yeah not a good look.

okay i just went through my most recent games and the only towngame i can find where a wagon was built on me very early was that bunnies game, where it was built as a meme before i even posted anything so that's no good

take two - i'm awkward early because fuck rvs. i *can* fetch examples of me being that early game as town. i have been getting wagoned early too, mostly as scum, but that has still given me experience on how to best deal with getting wagoned early.

anyway
i'm reading the conversation between fire and marci on page 4 and i'm like wow marci sure is trying to twist herself into justifying her "scumread" on me any way she can

and like ok fine you don't have the same meta read as i do thats not scummy, but... i also don't quite get it cause like... you're saying that you think he lacks confidence as town and that you think his mafia game is similar... so why is him not responding to votes more likely to come from scum than town? like whats the difference there that you expect to see?

it sounds like you're saying "you're like this as town" -> "i expect you to be like this as mafia too" -> ??? -> "so the way you acted makes you scum"

and i don't get what the missing step there is

I don't really see why it has to be

so, so, so

hard for you to understand what im seeing... but okay!

datisi being town just seems more unlikely, i think theres more benefits for scum him to ignore the votes on him.. whats so hard to understand about it???

like the eyeroll emoji here seems very over the top and unnecessary considering marci's explanations of why i'm scum are very lackluster at best

LIKE I THINK THAT BASED ON THE PERSONALITY I THINK HE HAS, I WOULD THINK HE WOULD THINK NOT REACTING TO THE VOTES WOULD BENEFIT HIM AS SCUM. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BENEFIT HIM AS SCUM BECAUSE HE SEEMS LIKE THE TYPE TO BE A SLIPPERY SNAKE, AND NOT REACTING TO THE VOTES AND NOT MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT IT WILL MAKE IT SEEM LIKE HES COOL WITH IT, AND NOT MAKING A BIG DEAL OF IT = LESS SPOTLIGHT = LESS DOUBTING

and i would not do this as town... because...? like if you think i as town am insecure and doubting myself, why wouldn't i respond the same way as town? like, this whole explanation goes from how you've seen me as town, making conclusions about my personality, then attributing those conclusions to my scumgame as opposed to my towngame for ??? reasons

i thought it looked a bit like he could be subtly trying to buddy fireisredsir by placing his vote on the same person that they did.

this is a joke, right.

[Dunnstral]

Why is MarcI using sporadic caps lock in post 106?

I can't tell if it's frustration, emphasis, or something else

[Datisi]

VOTE: marcistar

bell - scummy because he doesn't feel like he actually wants to be here
dunn - can be slight town for 50, feels nuanced *enough*
dwlee99 - lack of presence and the quickness of 118 is town.
enchant - dead null.
fey - i think slightly scummy because the convo with me felt more like posting for posting's sake but i am not married to this read
fireisredsir - town.
gammagooey - like both of the votes they've made. don't think they're trying to give off an impression that their posts are more useful than they are. slight town.
gorilla - townie for 92.
kovu - slightly townie for 81 because i don't expect scum!them to enter like that but we'll see how this progresses.
lady lambdadelta - null.
lavarmanos - slightly scummy maybe? my eyes are glazing over reading these posts. idk jury's still out.
lukewarm - mostly doesn't make my stomach turn so can be town for now. 101 is slightly sus but otherwise all ok.
marcistar - lol scum
meuh - 63 felt too tryhardy, the points on me in 79 feel off, and the "haha i am glad to be town!! and solving!!" is forced
rhyme and reason - 120 feels kinda townie idk why call it vibes. i wanna see mena freak out that i'm townreading his slot for nonsense ok.
sircakez - slightly SLIGHTLY townie for 13 because i like the tone but it's like. 0,01% more townie than random.
takotsubo syndrome - i feel like voting someone then plain unvoting because hurr durr reaction test is not very likely to come from scum? like scum would have some sorta bigger trajectory there. can be town for now.
val89 - my eyes glazed over 131 so into the scumbin you go
vp baltar - deadass no clue what to think here, ask me later

town (from towniest to least townie): fire, dwlee99, luke, gamma, gorilla, takotsubo, rnr, kovu, dunn, sircakez
void (no order): enchant, ladyld, vpb
scum (from scummiest to least scummy): marci, bell, meuh, val89, fey, lavar

cheers

[Datisi]

VOTE: marcistar

bell - scummy because he doesn't feel like he actually wants to be here
dunn - can be slight town for 50, feels nuanced *enough*
dwlee99 - lack of presence and the quickness of 118 is town.
enchant - dead null.
fey - i think slightly scummy because the convo with me felt more like posting for posting's sake but i am not married to this read
fireisredsir - town.
gammagooey - like both of the votes they've made. don't think they're trying to give off an impression that their posts are more useful than they are. slight town.
gorilla - townie for 92.
kovu - slightly townie for 81 because i don't expect scum!them to enter like that but we'll see how this progresses.
lady lambdadelta - null.
lavarmanos - slightly scummy maybe? my eyes are glazing over reading these posts. idk jury's still out.
lukewarm - mostly doesn't make my stomach turn so can be town for now. 101 is slightly sus but otherwise all ok.
marcistar - lol scum
meuh - 63 felt too tryhardy, the points on me in 79 feel off, and the "haha i am glad to be town!! and solving!!" is forced
rhyme and reason - 120 feels kinda townie idk why call it vibes. i wanna see mena freak out that i'm townreading his slot for nonsense ok.
sircakez - slightly SLIGHTLY townie for 13 because i like the tone but it's like. 0,01% more townie than random.
takotsubo syndrome - i feel like voting someone then plain unvoting because hurr durr reaction test is not very likely to come from scum? like scum would have some sorta bigger trajectory there. can be town for now.
val89 - my eyes glazed over 131 so into the scumbin you go
vp baltar - deadass no clue what to think here, ask me later

town (from towniest to least townie): fire, dwlee99, luke, gamma, gorilla, takotsubo, rnr, kovu, dunn, sircakez
void (no order): enchant, ladyld, vpb
scum (from scummiest to least scummy): marci, bell, meuh, val89, fey, lavar

cheers

[Val89]

What exactly is it you mean by your eyes glazing over, with respect to both myself and lavarmanos?

[Datisi]

What exactly is it you mean by your eyes glazing over, with respect to both myself and lavarmanos?

exactly what i said. if i feel like i'm reading your post and i am reading too many words that don't seem directly related to solving the game and are instead looking like they're filler, that's bad.

[Val89]

And the same applies to lavarmonos? Those posts seem like filler and not directed towards solving the game to you?

[Datisi]

yes. i was looking at his posts and the thought i was having was "get to the point already".

i know you're going to ask about it again so

- "but don't really have any opinion on the other votes or anyone else rlly"
- "I mean, if you're town, I don't want to discourage you from solving. But it doesn't feel natural to me at least."
- "I was put off by you immediately talking about which posts pinged you town/scum. And the tone you used really felt a bit odd because your reasoning seemed to consist of short, vague bursts of words. For example, "hints at actual scum hunting", "pretty solid vibes", ...
Those phrases had the effect of feeling not-genuine to me."

^^ the entirety of this last quote could be expressed in much less words. too much padding.

- "I don't see why early bandwagon votes are that bad, but I do think it still is generally thought of as "scummy"."
- "Tako genuinely could be scum though. I can agree that the content is not great there."

what i mean by "aren't directly related to solving the game" is that the idea that the person wants to express can be expressed in 10 words but they use 100 words to express it. it comes across as a fake attempt to boost their word-count while not adding content to the word count. if i get bored by reading the posts, it's usually a sign this is happening.

[marcistar]

ig my question then would be why you didn't mention that original reasoning until now?

because i didnt
idk its just a thing i like doing cuz i like ppl questioning it themselves

[marcistar]

I'm not sure I have actual thoughts on Kovu dropping a reads wall on page 4 but I admire the spirit. Just don't wear yourself out, kid.

I feel the opposite, for what it's worth.
There's almost nothing you can base them on
So they're just making things up, pretty much.
It's gonna make me want to doubt their reads
For probably a large chunk of the game.

So is there nothing in their readslist that you agree with at all then? I thought the readslist was just meant to generate some diff discussion

[Val89]

yes. i was looking at his posts and the thought i was having was "get to the point already".

Sorry, but I disagree entirely. None of the examples given there are overly wordy or superfluous to my eyes, and not a single one comes close to using 100 words to express what could in 10, not least because none of lavermanos' posts contain 100 words. I can understand your criticism of me for being wordy, although I think anyone who has played with me previously will know that is NAI, but something still seems off with that justification being applied to lavermanos, particularly with the examples given. It smells of post-justification to me.

You said previously that the votes on you were because of an awkwardness that results in your being wagon early on the regular. I suggested that I would try and find the time check the veracity of that statement, and then (and only then, not when you first said it), did dunnstral say that wasn't their experience, and your next post is an acknowledgement that I wont find a good example of you being wagoned early as town. Why do you think it happened to town you early in this game, then?

You have scumreads/leans on some of the members of your wagon, but correct me if I am wrong, but in each case those reads are unrelated to voting you, correct?

[marcistar]

- dwlee 118 doesn't really feel like the dwlee im used to but i agree with most of it? so thats cool i guess

I remember dwlee posted like that before, so it just really felt mid imo :/

[marcistar]

Tbh tbh, I reflexively town binned Marc for feeling similar to the last time I engaged with them.

how do i feel similar?

[Datisi]

Sorry, but I disagree entirely. None of the examples given there are overly wordy or superfluous to my eyes, and not a single one comes close to using 100 words to express what could in 10, not least because none of lavermanos' posts contain 100 words. I can understand your criticism of me for being wordy, although I think anyone who has played with me previously will know that is NAI, but something still seems off with that justification being applied to lavermanos, particularly with the examples given. It smells of post-justification to me.

okay. i'm aware some people type like that, which is why i'm not putting that much stock into reads based on that feeling. but as it stands. if i get bored reading your posts, i'll see that as a red flag because i don't easily get bored playing mafia. i got bored reading your and lavar's posts. (i'm reading you as more likely scum than him because i was sensing more of you trying to justify your vote on me, while lavar's problem was just that the posts were boring, but you both have that trait currently.)

You said previously that the votes on you were because of an awkwardness that results in your being wagon early on the regular. I suggested that I would try and find the time check the veracity of that statement, and then (and only then, not when you first said it), did dunnstral say that wasn't their experience, and your next post is an acknowledgement that I wont find a good example of you being wagoned early as town. Why do you think it happened to town you early in this game, then?

being in the wrong place at the wrong time. people naturally look for something to jump onto at the very start of the game. i was there, i made a few odd posts, people jumped onto it because they thought i was scummy or because they thought the pressure would make me more readable. in a different game that i can remember where i was awkward early (a pick your power game that schadd modded a few months ago), i started being awkward once there was other content in the game so people weren't immediately drawn to me because there was other stuff to look at.

also idk what dunn is talking about since i don't remember him playing with town!me in years, and i was awkward early in a game where we were sucmbuddies together, but. maybe i'm forgetting a game he played with me.

You have scumreads/leans on some of the members of your wagon, but correct me if I am wrong, but in each case those reads are unrelated to voting you, correct?

yes. my reads may have stemmed from the way they interacted with me (as it did with fey), but i don't find voting or not voting me to be alignment indicative.

[Dunnstral]

I suggested that I would try and find the time check the veracity of that statement, and then (and only then, not when you first said it), did dunnstral say that wasn't their experience, and your next post is an acknowledgement that I wont find a good example of you being wagoned early as town. Why do you think it happened to town you early in this game, then?

When it was first brought up I knew it wasn't my experience, and you can see I described what I thought about them shortly before that. I haven't played that many recent games with Datisi and assumed that what I saw was not the norm for them and that they were speaking the truth about their own meta. When you talked about it later, it was also shortly after Datisi brought it up again in post 133 response to post 82, and I was more skeptical about it at this point. My post was at least partially in response to you bringing it up again

[marcistar]

VOTE: marcistar

bell - scummy because he doesn't feel like he actually wants to be here
dunn - can be slight town for 50, feels nuanced *enough*
dwlee99 - lack of presence and the quickness of 118 is town.
enchant - dead null.
fey - i think slightly scummy because the convo with me felt more like posting for posting's sake but i am not married to this read
fireisredsir - town.
gammagooey - like both of the votes they've made. don't think they're trying to give off an impression that their posts are more useful than they are. slight town.
gorilla - townie for 92.
kovu - slightly townie for 81 because i don't expect scum!them to enter like that but we'll see how this progresses.
lady lambdadelta - null.
lavarmanos - slightly scummy maybe? my eyes are glazing over reading these posts. idk jury's still out.
lukewarm - mostly doesn't make my stomach turn so can be town for now. 101 is slightly sus but otherwise all ok.
marcistar - lol scum
meuh - 63 felt too tryhardy, the points on me in 79 feel off, and the "haha i am glad to be town!! and solving!!" is forced
rhyme and reason - 120 feels kinda townie idk why call it vibes. i wanna see mena freak out that i'm townreading his slot for nonsense ok.
sircakez - slightly SLIGHTLY townie for 13 because i like the tone but it's like. 0,01% more townie than random.
takotsubo syndrome - i feel like voting someone then plain unvoting because hurr durr reaction test is not very likely to come from scum? like scum would have some sorta bigger trajectory there. can be town for now.
val89 - my eyes glazed over 131 so into the scumbin you go
vp baltar - deadass no clue what to think here, ask me later

town (from towniest to least townie): fire, dwlee99, luke, gamma, gorilla, takotsubo, rnr, kovu, dunn, sircakez
void (no order): enchant, ladyld, vpb
scum (from scummiest to least scummy): marci, bell, meuh, val89, fey, lavar

cheers

I do not really like datisis reads!!
i dont think fey seemed scummy, i like what she posted so far she looks like shes trying to solve
i dont think gammagooey is "slight town", i dont think the posts theyve made is really like super helpful yet.
his read on me is i think datisis like the devil rn since hes not really trying to make me see the light of things (if im wrong), and instead hes just saying its scummy. i think hes trying to shut me down because its easy and he doesnt want his haters around.. it seems like more hes trying to convince everyone else instead of trying to collaborate with me...
i also *shocker here* dont agree with meuh feeling off yet, i think she hasnt done much alignment indicative yet and i think ur hating on her for her basic personality
i dont really agree with sircakez being slightly townie either..

[marcistar]

Why is MarcI using sporadic caps lock in post 106?

I can't tell if it's frustration, emphasis, or something else

does it matter much? it feels like very nitpicky to talk about typing style