Mini 697: Prisoner's Dilemma Mafia {Game Over!}

[Albert B. Rampage]

It is logical to send you to prison because it will create a scenario where the originator of the plan goes face to face with the plan breaker. Good drama.

[icemanE]

Iceman, you defended that plan, why am I the one to be suspected of it?

I defended it before someone broke in and killed a prisoner - I also expressed doubts about it at the end of Day 1 - the game is clearly more complicated than we assumed, and the simplicity of your plan comes off as suspect. There's always the chance - and it's entirely possible that this is the case - that you were just as uninformed about the complexity of the game as we were.

[icemanE]

Let me rephrase - in many armies across space and time, generals are punished, in one way or another, for their failings. Aztec generals were executed - Japanese generals committed suicide - Roman generals were exiled. This is an effective way to control an organization, and it minimizes the risk of potential sabotage or overall weakness in structure.

Plus, we're not killing you, we're putting you away for a night. If you turn up dead tomorrow it'll be a different story.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

Prison Count #7

6 - orangepenguin (icemanE, orangepenguin, TonyMontana, DragonsofSummer, Seraphim, Albert B. Rampage)
5 - SlySly (CarnCarn, springlullaby, TonyMontana, RedCoyote, DragonsofSummer)
4 - springlullaby (icemanE, orangepenguin, Seraphim, Albert B. Rampage)

1 - Seraphim (CarnCarn)
1 - DragonsofSummer (springlullaby)
1 - CarnCarn (RedCoyote)

Not Yet Voted:

humscunter (2)
SlySly (2)

Remember the majority is 6 and the deadline is 4PM Eastern November 24th!

[CarnCarn]

The spring=scum story is interesting, but I doubt it's correct. For one thing, I just don't see a scum trying to pass off a plan that only helps them for one night (and only the first night, at that). Also, spring seemed genuinely unsure about NKs, like a lot of other people (even though doc protects and night targeting were mentioned in the rules); I doubt you could say they are all scum.

We haven't heard from humscunter in a while. What are your thoughts on N1 and the current situation?

Also,

Unsend: SlySly

; I think this day is being rushed with no reason.

[CarnCarn]

I find it pretty unsettling that OP is being thrown back into the lion's den by so many people without being pressured for any sort of claim

[Albert B. Rampage]

You are certainly right. OP, claim please?

[SlySly]

OP, I don't think you should claim and I find those requesting you to a bit suspicious. In general, especially early, claims give scum ammunition.

I obviously look scummy, since Crazy died. I think the flavor pretty much rules me out though, but that's from my perspective.

It is from my perspective. too, because of the following...

An unidentified suspect broke through various levels of security. Now, had I been the stranger, I wouldn't have needed to break in, I was already there. So was Crazy. Since it was through various levels and stuff, that indicates an outside source.

This makes more than a little sense to me. An inside "break in" just doesn't add up. But this doesn't clear you. There is a possibility that you are merely the benefactor of a misguided vig. I do think others are scummier than you at this point and with your willingness to go back to jail, I think there are better candidates to send from today.

-------------------------------------------------------------

For instance...

DragonsofSummer's (entire contribution so far)

/confirm

send Crazy

send OrangePenguin

I have no problems with the plan at all, but it does get complicated there are night kills.

That kill worries me, and I agree that we have now found the hole in the plan. The biggest problem is we gain no information from that night because of it. Basically an entire day was wasted imo.

send SlySly

send Orangepenguin

Do I even need to point out the contradictory scuminess here? Usually I stay away from lurkers, but this one has boldy complained about the lack of effort from everyone.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will elaborate on my position about why sending 2 scum into prison is a good idea for town, and bad for scum...

...I actually asked the mod about this in the pregame phase. I wondered why scum wouldn't want to be in prison, since (and he has confirmed this to me), scum do indeed know each other's identities and could seemingly manipulate the system to get put in jail and gain abilities. When I pointed this out, the mod replied, essentially, that it is not that simple (ask him about this, I dare ya).

Oh, really? Here you say it is a good idea to send 2 scum.

Then what did you mean by these 2 previous statementis?

Also, assuming only one scum team, it's not a good idea to send two scum into Prison on any night.

Also, if you think both spring and I are scum, why are you sending both of us into prison? You do realize that two scum in prison can both just choose the daykill option and randomly kill townies the next day?

Twice before you have stated that sending 2 scum is NOT good and now you are claiming you have mod confirmed info stating that sending 2 scum IS a good thing? Why would you try to mislead the town from sending 2 scum TWICE knowing,

from the mod no less

, that sending 2 scum would be detrimental to the scum? I can't see any protown reason to EVER lead the town astray from mod confirmed protwn information.

You did point 1 thing out to me though...

CarnCarn, with all your GF talk, it sure seems you are convinced there is a GF in the game. Perhaps you have some inside information that needs to be shared with the town?

lol, I'm not even the one who brought it up.

That made me want to look back and find out who did, and keep and eye on them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are my observations from that...

Maybe you can point it out for me, godfather?

So it was Ice that brought it up. Is he rolefishing, scum or both? Could he be covering for someone else? Let's see what transpires here.

I meant you going to jail and getting investigated would turn up an innocent on you if you're godfather.

This quote successfully distracted me and lead me to believe for the better part of the game that prisoners investigated each other while in prison, which is not the case at all.

I agree with sending anyone but Spring, though.

Spring shouldn't be sent

specifically because

it was his idea.

I do think Spring's plan is/was scummy. Are you covering for your scum buddy Spring? That would explain your trying to keep her out of jail for so much of the game.

I think we should send Spring now

I meant you going to jail and getting investigated would turn up an innocent on you if you're godfather.

Your sudden change of heart seems a little suspicious. Distancing now, or just confident of Spring's ability to deflect investigations as you inferred in 51?

@ OP - forgot to ask, did you still get daycop power or not?

Worried? It seems you have good reason to be.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

send: CarnCarn (scummy, holding out mod confirmed protown info and purposely leading the town in a direction opposite of that information)
send: SpringLullaby (serve some time for your distraction crime)

I wish I had another vote, as Ice seems to be a little too closely related to Spring. In fact, I would have sent Ice if I didn't feel that Carn's withholding protown mod confirmed information is such a serious offense.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unsend everyone

Only skimmed the post above but I don't want to end the day yet.

[icemanE]

@Sly - If you read my posts you'll know why I changed my mind. Spring's plan clearly isn't valid anymore now that we know there's more to the game than we originally thought.

I never thought prisoners investigated each other while in prison - that's what they do with their DAYCOP ability... DAYCOP. Not JAILCOP. I'm not sure how you missed that one.

[orangepenguin]

Yeah, all we do is choose "Yes or No". If we both say yes, we both die, if one of us say yes, the other die. If we both said no, then we both did. I said no, but it didn't work, because somebody broke-in, so I never got to ask my yes or no thing.

I am surely not going to claim Day 2. I don't really see why it would help the town- it would just give the mafia more info, which I don't want.

unsend spring, send carncarn

.

Obviously the majority of the town want me to go back to jail for the night. I'm fine with that. I have nothing to hide nor do I have anything to be worried about. If it clears my penguin name, then fine. But if you really want me to claim, I will tomorrow when it will benefit the town.

[CarnCarn]

@Sly - I wanted to play along and not let the scum know I figured out a weakness early on? It's not like we were going to be able to send 2 scum day 1, anyway. It hard enough to find one person, let alone 2.
Your case against me is pretty weak. I'm not lying about this; just ask the mod yourself (in fact, I encourage everyone to). There is no reason for me to put the information forward if I were scum.
In fact, after the random stage yesterday, I started mentioning this exact thing. The posts you mention are VERY early in the game; I didn't want to throw it out there too early because scum would realize I was on to something and change their early behavior.

[CarnCarn]

But if you really want me to claim, I will tomorrow when it will benefit the town.

What makes you so sure?

I am surely not going to claim Day 2. I don't really see why it would help the town- it would just give the mafia more info, which I don't want.

It helps the town because, if your claim makes sense and you are indeed town, then there is no reason to send you back to jail. You do realize that you appear suspicious from the events N1?
The day scene is fine, but it doesn't mean that you're not scum and that in fact, your team is allowed to break in and NK if only one of you is in prison.
Also, it's not true that both of you will die if you answer yes. That is only one possible outcome of the rock paper scissors match.
Anyway, I have a gut feeling that you're not scum, but I'd like this to be supported by some evidence especially after that crazy N1 (pun intended ).

Also, Sly, can you explain your TM vote from yesterday? I know it's been asked a couple times already but you've ignored it every time.

[SlySly]

Also, Sly, can you explain your TM vote from yesterday? I know it's been asked a couple times already but you've ignored it every time.

Ignored? You like to twist things around, don't you? I answered it abruptly.

The dice roll was a joke.

I sent Tony because he said he wanted to go.

[CarnCarn]

What I mean is, how is it a joke? Your original post showed no signs whatsoever of joking; I see your explanation as more of a back track/afterthought than something that makes logical sense with what you originally wrote.

[SlySly]

@Sly - I wanted to play along and not let the scum know I figured out a weakness early on? It's not like we were going to be able to send 2 scum day 1, anyway. It hard enough to find one person, let alone 2.

This is ramblings of scum trying to justify misleading the town to rush through day 1. If you know that sending 2 scum to prison is protwn, especially knowing that from the mod, you revealing that on day one would have been protown. It would have generated more desire to discuss and expose scum. Your withholding of protown mod confirmed information was not protown, it was downright scummy.

What I mean is, how is it a joke? Your original post showed no signs whatsoever of joking; I see your explanation as more of a back track/afterthought than something that makes logical sense with what you originally wrote.

There is no logic in a ridiculous joke. I made a sarcastic comment followed by an obviously not serious roll. How could I possibly decide to send Tony based on a roll of two 6 sided dice and getting a 4 and 1? I couldn't, it was a post entirely in jest.

[Albert B. Rampage]

There is merit in your case SlySly.

Send CarnCarn

He must be purged from the town tonight.

[RedCoyote]

First of all;

unsend: SlySly

.

I thought it would lighten the mood a bit to send the two double names, but it's time to put on the serious cap now.

Sly's recent post has been the best post in the game thus far. I think he pointed out something very suspicious about CarnCarn. I'm willing to go so far as to say this has really opened my eyes to seeing him as scum, or at least a dead ringer for one. This is CarnCarn's major defense:

I wanted to play along and not let the scum know I figured out a weakness early on?

So, CarnCarn, you wanted us to follow spring's plan...

Because the plan technically works, given time. I think springlullaby (sl) is town and the plan catches scum if they try to take out townies by faking guilties anyway.

...in order to fool the scum?

How does that make sense at all? How does letting the town struggle to comprehend the game when you know pertinent information about the very mechanics that are tripping us up help anyone

but

scum?

I didn't want to throw it out there too early because scum would realize I was on to something and change their early behavior.

That’s all well and good, but what has your “feigning ignorance” of the rules got us so far? I mean, how long would you have proposed to wait before telling us all you knew how it worked from the beginning?

---

My other scum pick is either DoS or ABR. In vein of Sly's post, I will lay out my problems with ABR a little more specifically (Sly's already covered all of what DoS has had to say thus far, literally).

Here are some examples of what ABR's major contributions:

I support this plan and its creator.

(in response to spring's plan)

Yeah sure.

(in response to an idea by iceman)

I want to go.

If you're going to send me, please specify whether you think I'm scum or town beforehand.

(in response to a question by Crazy)

I pledge to answer no to the question.

(in response to spring's request)

Why does Tony have so many votes?

(original content!)

I think we can agree that from now on, we only send suspicious felons to prison.

(original content!)

When you send someone, specify whether you find them scummy or not and for what reasons.

(basically repeating himself)

Makes sense.

Send: Spring

Send: orange

(in response to Seraphim's idea)

You are certainly right. OP, claim please?

(in response to CarnCarn's idea of getting OP to claim)

I'm not cherrypicking with these; I'm quoting entire posts.

I want to point out three things with ABR:

1.)

He never voted D1

, nor has he actually come out against someone aside from latching on to Seraphim's vote earlier (and that is even arguable as a real solid stance on who is scum).

2.) He pushed very, very hard to get jailed D1, and even went so far as to ask why other people were getting votes with the implication that he should be getting them.

3.) His contributions, and I've posted almost every contribution he's made, are almost always responses. The only pieces of original content I've found are him asking why TonyMontana was getting sent to jail, and him saying that only scum should be sent to prison.

Conveniently, and I'll admit this is more of a stretch allegation, I've noticed the interaction between CarnCarn and ABR has been seemingly artificial.

In any case, I still think DoS, OP, and to an extent Seraphim, aren't exactly the most town players here, but I think I'm comfortable with

sending: ABR

for the moment.


I'd also love to hear more from TonyMontana and humscunter.

Do you think humscunter may be coming close to a Mod prod

?

[RedCoyote]

My Day 2 Allegations: Chapter II

There is merit in your case SlySly.

Send CarnCarn

He must be purged from the town tonight.

(in response to Sly)

[CarnCarn]

TO EVERYONE: I do not have absolute "mod confirmed" info about the setup; never said I did (and why the hell would he directly tell me something about the setup just because I asked?). Sly you are twisting words left and right. All I said is that, based on the response I got from the mod pregame, I was lead to believe there is some penalty for scum ending up in jail together, but I wanted to keep this speculation to myself in the early stages of D1 for obvious protown reasons.

This is ramblings of scum trying to justify misleading the town to rush through day 1. If you know that sending 2 scum to prison is protwn, especially knowing that from the mod, you revealing that on day one would have been protown. It would have generated more desire to discuss and expose scum. Your withholding of protown mod confirmed information was not protown, it was downright scummy.

But I

DID

mention it day 1. And NO, it would not be terribly useful D1 to go into more detail (mentioning the mod) then because there is little info to catch 2 scum with. Why would I waste this info when it wasn't important?
Actually, your surprise at my initial comment about sending two scum being bad for town is kind of scummy.

There is no logic in a ridiculous joke. I made a sarcastic comment followed by an obviously not serious roll. How could I possibly decide to send Tony based on a roll of two 6 sided dice and getting a 4 and 1? I couldn't, it was a post entirely in jest.

Har har. Make a post that makes no sense in retrospect and dismiss it as a joke; that is an excellent defense!

And to both SlySly and RedCoyote, how does my revealing this info make me scum? It simply doesn't, and you two wish I'd never mentioned it; there's absolutely no reason for anyone to be upset with my revealing this information, except for the scum, of course. Guess what that makes you.

Unsend: Seraphim
Send: SlySly
Send: RedCoyote

[CarnCarn]

AND, not to mention that, all the discussion of mod speculation aside, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that send scum to PRISON would NOT help them, thematically speaking.

[TonyMontana]

Yeah, all we do is choose "Yes or No". If we both say yes, we both die[...]

err....

There is no logic in a ridiculous joke. I made a sarcastic comment followed by an obviously not serious roll.

Neither the sarcasm nor any lack of seriousness was obvious.

How could I possibly decide to send Tony based on a roll of two 6 sided dice and getting a 4 and 1? I couldn't, it was a post entirely in jest.

Well, you couldn't know it was gonna be 4 and 1, but that's besides the point.

No matter how you look at it, the whole thing was a bag of fail, joke or not.

[Albert B. Rampage]

1.)

He never voted D1

, nor has he actually come out against someone aside from latching on to Seraphim's vote earlier (and that is even arguable as a real solid stance on who is scum).

2.) He pushed very, very hard to get jailed D1, and even went so far as to ask why other people were getting votes with the implication that he should be getting them.

3.) His contributions, and I've posted almost every contribution he's made, are almost always responses. The only pieces of original content I've found are him asking why TonyMontana was getting sent to jail, and him saying that only scum should be sent to prison.

1. Of course I didn't vote on D1. The day was unnecessarily rushed. We gained little to no information.

2. No, the implication was that the day was being rushed.

3. So your argument is that scum write responses rather than make original content? That is a very minor charge against me...

[RedCoyote]

AND, not to mention that, all the discussion of mod speculation aside, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that send scum to PRISON would NOT help them, thematically speaking.

thematically != logically

I'm still not convinced that this is the best idea anyways, because putting both scum in jail at the same time is going to be very difficult. I think that it's much worse to have a scum and a town in jail than it is to have two town in there because we have no power to lynch.

I mean, I agree with the basic idea that the goal of the game is

probably

to get both scum jailed at once. But that's not what we set out to do D1, and you were just as important a role in that decision as anyone else.

We all basically agreed to spring's idea, and when rolling dice was proposed, hell, when I proposed that we SHOULD rush D1, I don't recall any meaningful objections.

Sure, in retrospect you can say you were worried or something, but if you seriously thought putting town in jail was complete mistake because of what the Mod said, you sure as hell went the wrong way about it by saying, and I quote, "it's not a good idea to send two scum into Prison on any night".

1. Of course I didn't vote on D1. The day was unnecessarily rushed. We gained little to no information.

2. No, the implication was that the day was being rushed.

3. So your argument is that scum write responses rather than make original content? That is a very minor charge against me...

1. If you thought that, why didn't you speak up? Why were your only contributions basically along the lines of politicking for your own jailing?

2. I disagree, that's not what I got out of that at all. But I hope the town rereads this post in its context and makes up their own mind. I think you and CarnCarn are jumping on this idea that you were these two mavericks in trying to stop the town from lynching so quickly D1, when the fact of the matter is nothing of substance was done to slow us down.

3. From my experience some scum try to act like they're involved in the game by making plenty of posts... except most of them aren't really saying or contributing anything.

[icemanE]

Actually, I'm not so sure that being sent to jail doesn't help scum. Think about it - even if scum say yes, or even if scum are investigated and found to be guilty... the only thing we can do about it is send them to jail, we don't have lynches. Once a scum is found out, he can continually say "yes", and has a chance of defeating the other player in P-R-S. If he wins, the next day he has either doc protection (which makes him unkillable), prisoner immunity (which means our only means of dispensing with him is nullified), or a double vote, and all of those things are great for scum. I guess my question is, how are we supposed to kill scum beyond gambling on the P-R-S system in order to defeat them?

The best possible scenario I can envision is this:

We send two suspected TOWNIES to jail every night - they both pick no until they come up with guilty reports - we continue to send those townies, and they pick the 50% daykills, then use them on the guilties. This, to me, seems more effective than sending scum to jail where our only chance is a gamble.

With that in mind I'm going to

unsend - everyone

while you guys digest.

PS - I would be willing to go to jail to test my theory.