Open 97 - Lovers Mafia (Over in 3 days!) before 703

[Adel]

pseudovote: SensFan

it would be an actual vote if it wasn't 3 to lynch with 2 scum alive in lynch-or-lose.

[Adel]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

please respond to this post.

[Adel]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

also, from this list, can you point out the games where you attempted gambits?

[SensFan]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

Are you confident that you didn't leave any other games off of your list?

100% so.

[SensFan]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

please respond to this post.

Don't feel like quoting, but the posts leading up to the hammer where both Gurgi and JDodge asked for a hammer. There was also the fact several of the votes come for legitimate reasons, like his MOS idea.

[SensFan]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613
Newbie 669

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514
Newbie 550
Newbie 585
Newbie 586
Newbie 608
Newbie 638

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537
Mini 550
Mini 551
Mini 570
Mini 625

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532
Mini 562
Mini 604
Mini 610
Mini 632
Mini 639
Mini 643

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia
ehobanohar
Mafia 79

also, from this list, can you point out the games where you attempted gambits?

Probably about half of them. I can take a quick look, though.

[SensFan]

check, I skimmed and thought your role was "suicide bomber" and it said that you won, that meant that you were scum-aligned. good job on vigging successfully.

I think you missed the point, then. There were 2 Scum, 9 Town (including myself). If I bombed Town, I lost. I bombed N0.

[SensFan]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

I most certainly was not. Seems VERY odd you would make a mistake like that...

really? Just how odd does it seem? Do you think I am more likely to make a mistake like that when I am scum or town?

If it was an honest mistake, it has no bearing on your alignment. For someone who has been implying that I am Scum lying about my game history, though, it just seems odd/ironic that you even looked at the game and didn't see my alignment in the first post.

[Adel]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

please respond to this post.

Don't feel like quoting, but the posts leading up to the hammer where both Gurgi and JDodge asked for a hammer. There was also the fact

several of the votes come for legitimate reasons

, like his MOS idea.

how many is "several"?
What was it about LG's vote or my vote on Guardian that made you think they were serious and legitimate?

[Adel]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

I most certainly was not. Seems VERY odd you would make a mistake like that...

really? Just how odd does it seem? Do you think I am more likely to make a mistake like that when I am scum or town?

If it was an honest mistake, it has no bearing on your alignment. For someone who has been implying that I am Scum lying about my game history, though, it just seems odd/ironic that you even looked at the game and didn't see my alignment in the first post.

I think it is scummy how you placed emphasis on "VERY".

[Adel]

Battousai: why shouldn't we consider you lurker-scum at this point?

[Lord Gurgi]

LG:

Why am I lurkerscum for posting once at the beginning of twilight and stop posting, IIRC, for 2 hours at the time of the comment? Why is Adel not lurkerscum for not posting at all?

Because you disappeared

as

we got an opportunity to talk with confirmed town, and it was odd that you left at the same time. Coincidence really is a stretch. Whereas Adel had disappeared sometime earlier.

Sens is the most likely lynch target today, yet you defend him. Why would you defend Sen by attacking JDodge's reasoning? Is it because you are trying to protect your scumbuddy?

This is horrible reasoning. Purely because he is the most likely lynch does not mean he is scum. I'd like to see some arguments from you, rather than sitting back as you are. JDodge's reasoning

always

needs to be attacked because he diverts to semantics and ad hominem if someone doesn't control him. Points for a loaded question, though.

[Lord Gurgi]

Adel: Once you're done with this line of questioning, can you give us some information? I'm pretty bad at meta-reads based on reading, and only really trust what I get from playing with them. That said, I'd like to know what you're thinking.

[SensFan]

This should be all of my completed games. It does not include games in which I was replaced.

Newbie Games (Scum)
Newbie 613 - Gambited. I left the only comfirmed Innocent alive going into endgame.
Newbie 669 - No real gambit here.

Newbie Games (Town)
Newbie 514 - No gambit
Newbie 550 - Lied in my first post of the game to get a read on people
Newbie 585 - Pulled same gambit as above
Newbie 586 - No gambit
Newbie 608 - No gambit
Newbie 638 - No gambit

Mini Games (Scum)
Mini 537 - Hardly played
Mini 550 - No gambit
Mini 551 - Ridiculous gambit, claimed PR-crippled Cop.
Mini 570 - No gambit
Mini 625 - No gambit

Mini Games (Town)
Mini 532 - No gambit
Mini 562 - Gambit of sorts, proxied my vote to start the game
Mini 604 - No gambit, although this game was rather broken due to luck
Mini 610 - Replaced in, no gambit
Mini 632 - No gambit, unless you consider crumbing the fuck out of a role gambitting. this game was also broken due to luck and a scum that outed his buddy after being lynched.
Mini 639 - Replaced in, barely played. No gambit.
Mini 643 - Barely played, no gambit.

Large Games (Scum)
Realistic Mafia - No real gambit, I guess. This game seemed broken in favour of the Scum, though.
ehobanohar - Barely played, no gambit (not that the set-up really allows any)
Mafia 79 - Replaced in, no gambit.

[SensFan]

Mini 531 - Martyr Mafia was accidentally left off of my list. Kind of ironic in that its the one game I never posted in, although I think it might best demostrate my tendency to make quick, aggressive moves.

as scum -- you were scum in that game.

I most certainly was not. Seems VERY odd you would make a mistake like that...

really? Just how odd does it seem? Do you think I am more likely to make a mistake like that when I am scum or town?

If it was an honest mistake, it has no bearing on your alignment. For someone who has been implying that I am Scum lying about my game history, though, it just seems odd/ironic that you even looked at the game and didn't see my alignment in the first post.

I think it is scummy how you placed emphasis on "VERY".

I was shocked that anyone who has on my case so much for missing a single game out of 24, and forgetting about a player in a game almost a year ago, would mistake my alignment after checking the front post of a game I linked.

[SensFan]

what was it about my

Scum Fight!

y don't juz lynch Guardian now, plz?

and LG's posts calling for a hammer that made you think they were both informative and serious?

Feel free to quote LG to prove your point.

The fact there was a legitimate bandwagon on him, ESPECIALLY in Gurgi's case when I had JUST said I didn't think I was ready to hammer yet.

please quote the posts that led you to believe that his bandwagon was

legitimate

.

please respond to this post.

Don't feel like quoting, but the posts leading up to the hammer where both Gurgi and JDodge asked for a hammer. There was also the fact

several of the votes come for legitimate reasons

, like his MOS idea.

how many is "several"?
What was it about LG's vote or my vote on Guardian that made you think they were serious and legitimate?

I know mine and JDodge's were legitimate. Quite certain Gurgi's was, too.
Gurgi specifically ASKED for a friggin hammer in the post before I did it.

[Adel]

Adel: Once you're done with this line of questioning, can you give us some information? I'm pretty bad at meta-reads based on reading, and only really trust what I get from playing with them. That said, I'd like to know what you're thinking.

I'll get to the alignment related stuff later, but right now I'm pretty pissed that after starting off in one of those rare games free of newbies (together we average more than 4k game posts) a random wagon got someone I enjoy playing with lynched on page 2. It makes this game an example of everything that is wrong with mafia right now.

As far as getting a meta read, here is one approach:
1. Open up all of his games in tabs, & place games as scum in one window, and games as town in another window. Try to actually sort them correctly.
2. Skim the first three or four pages of each game. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours, and skim them all again.
3. Sort each game to only display all posts by SensFan. Skim the first 20 or so posts from each of those games. Do it again. Take a break for a few hours and do it again.
4. Re-read the first few pages of this game.
5. Sort all of the posts by SensFan in this game.

by following this process you should get a pretty good idea if he is following his scum meta or his town meta in this game.

If you think he is scum, then you go through this thread and write down every claim he made about his playstyle and what he has or has not experienced, and dig for evidence from his body of work. Doing this before you have an informed opinion of his alignment is usually a bad idea, because if you look for anything hard enough you will find it, and it really sucks when you work really hard just to convince yourself that an innocent townie is scum. see the wikipedia article on confirmation bias.

I honestly won't have a very solid read on his alignment for a couple of days. I looked at his games just hard enough to ask the kind of questions that encouraged him to make statements that could hopefully be proven conclusively true or false, which should go a long way towards proving his alignment. Good scum-hunting requires a lot of research and disciplined thinking combined with fast manipulation of your opponents.

[Adel]

also, look for instances of hyperbole in the first couple of pages of his games, and take special notice if his reaction to it varies with his alignment.

[SensFan]

I honestly won't have a very solid read on his alignment for a couple of days. I looked at his games just hard enough to ask the kind of questions that encouraged him to make statements that could hopefully be proven conclusively true or false, which should go a long way towards proving his alignment. Good scum-hunting requires a lot of research and disciplined thinking combined with fast manipulation of your opponents.

Can I ask which questions you think I might have lied to answer as it pertains to my past games?

[Lord Gurgi]

Not to be rude, but I really don't have the time to be doing this for multiple hours, in addition, do you not think that his meta could have changed over a long period of play? I know mine has changed dramatically since October.

[Adel]

It isn't the questions so much as your statements, which may or may not have been relevant to the questions. An explicit example of a premeditated lie would be pretty awesome, but is unlikely. "Spin" is more likely, and more difficult to evaluate.

Contextual differences in posting style (syntax, tone, ect..) is a more likely way to get a good evaluation of someone's alignment meta, but it is far harder to quantify. "Intuition" is what most often identifies these kind of player-specific tells... but it takes work and it can be difficult to filter out the inevitable false-positives.

[SensFan]

It isn't the questions so much as your statements, which may or may not have been relevant to the questions. An explicit example of a premeditated lie would be pretty awesome, but is unlikely. "Spin" is more likely, and more difficult to evaluate.

As someone who a) isn't used to this kind of metaing, and b) wants some sort of explanation, can you at least try to explain what you have asked/done in this game to try and get me to out myself?

[Adel]

Not to be rude, but I really don't have the time to be doing this for multiple hours, in addition, do you not think that his meta could have changed over a long period of play? I know mine has changed dramatically since October.

That is the point behind sorting his games into town windows and scum windows. That controls for general shifts in playstyle against time.

If you don't have time to spend several hours building player specific metas, I don't think you have a chance of meeting your potential as a forum mafia player. This is a formatt that rewards hard work and diligence.

[Adel]

It isn't the questions so much as your statements, which may or may not have been relevant to the questions. An explicit example of a premeditated lie would be pretty awesome, but is unlikely. "Spin" is more likely, and more difficult to evaluate.

As someone who a) isn't used to this kind of metaing, and b) wants some sort of explanation, can you at least try to explain what you have asked/done in this game to try and get me to out myself?

your time would be far better served trying to scumhunt if you are actually town, or OMGUS'g me if you are scum.

[SensFan]

It isn't the questions so much as your statements, which may or may not have been relevant to the questions. An explicit example of a premeditated lie would be pretty awesome, but is unlikely. "Spin" is more likely, and more difficult to evaluate.

As someone who a) isn't used to this kind of metaing, and b) wants some sort of explanation, can you at least try to explain what you have asked/done in this game to try and get me to out myself?

your time would be far better served trying to scumhunt if you are actually town, or OMGUS'g me if you are scum.

I want you to explain why you have been asking all this stuff of me, and I want you to commit to exactly what you are looking for before you go looking.