Open 859 - C9++ - Postgame

[Infinity 324]

why is lucian awkward?

VOTE: hiraki

[Infinity 324]

Bold claim. Klick can be Town, I don't think scum's first idea is to attack me for being too friendly when most of my 3 existing posts are criticizing someo

this is towny self-aware

[Infinity 324]

oh, btw we're a system, we may sign posts and may not but our reads might not always be 100% consistent of course we will try to come to consensus on the important ones

-ellies

[Infinity 324]

why is lucian awkward?

VOTE: hiraki

Welp. I thought the banter in 12 was between friends or acquaintances, but if not, then it gives a weird pockety, overly-friendly vibe.

froggo is hitting a lot of "awkward scum in the early game" pings.

This doesn't feel natural to me at all.

can you elaborate on this? maybe it's because we always used to try to squeeze as much info as possible out of rvs, but this actually seems quite genuine to me.

-james

[Infinity 324]

why is lucian awkward?

VOTE: hiraki

why vote the IC? seems like a throwaway vote

fine it was a throwaway vote. i don't like rvs and thought it might give some reactions but we're past that now

-ellies

[Infinity 324]

"Taking obvious jokey seriously" now, too.

froggo, how much mafia experience do you have?

i couldn't give you a number but like, a lot. i think all of these "scum pings" just come from me not being used to forum and not knowing anyone here. lemme breathe

VOTE: froggo

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: klick i didn't like their reply to the lucian thing. idk about others in the system but froggo is towny.

-ash

[Infinity 324]

Infinity why did ur slot vote me earlier. i don't want to let that go unexplained.

the whole "i'm new and i'm flustered because i'm being pressured" is >rand scum.

-ash

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: klick i didn't like their reply to the lucian thing.

Can you elaborate on this?

you were a little closed to engagement in a way that seemed +scum to us. early game i'd expect town to want to engage; e.g. "here's why i think lucian here is scummy rather than overeager town" or just "i think being overexplaining in that way is +scum early on"

-idk

pedit: gamma could be scum

[Infinity 324]

what is the >rand town reaction to being pressured early d1

there are a bunch of them. one is just ignoring it, another (like you're doing now) is when it pushes you to scumhunt more. some town will get frustrated.

[Infinity 324]

Because the town reads were based on weak sauce.

Reeks of TMI, you know?

It's also a very LAMIST approach

eheh with this and your sig i can't tell we're not gonna get along

-ash

[Infinity 324]

I like infinity's page 5. feels very calm and collected and chill and other words. Infinity could i interest you in voting Gamma with me or would you prefer to stay on Klick?

maybe honestly i never know what to do with my vote. i could vote gamma but what's the point, we'll 95% be able to read him correctly later anyway

-ellies

[Infinity 324]

Even if I agree with that premise, I still think that throwing out that town read was scummy.

It was done in a LAMIST attempt. You did this with 2(?) further stating of town reads as well. I noticed a lack of scum reads, which is really where town shine through.

zz i used to do this exact same thing as town

-isa

[Infinity 324]

So?

it's really not scum behavior

-isa

[Infinity 324]

without explicitly saying they are town.

lucian is town

-isa

[Infinity 324]

multiple posts earlier in our iso talk about how we find lucian towny

[Infinity 324]

They just don’t seem to get along

haha i don't remember this but it's funny if true

gamam town btw

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: klick started to post better, not sure where this should go

not interested in sheeping the ic even if it's optimal, i'd rather just play mafia

enchant who would you sheep right now if you sheeped someone

-isa

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: csf i'm going to put our vote on a wagon, also csf has posted a bunch without giving us townvibes

[Infinity 324]

This doesn’t make me feel any more confident furtive is scum but it does make me think Dunn is town

why?

[Infinity 324]

I'm thinking Gamma is likely to be Town here. Her argument with Dunn feels like she's thinking about it behind the scenes, but the fact she's not really explaining what's going on in her head make it more likely to be genuine solving rather than just for show.

yeah i've used this to tr gamma forever so i approve

next time be less towny before you do this though because i gained no townreads from this

-ellies

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, do you still like your CSF vote?

to be honest i never loved the vote, but it's the system's consensus favorite wagon. aisa is an ok vote too but nothing she's done is scummy i think? idk people kinda just need to do stuff

[Infinity 324]

aisa is somewhat towny

VOTE: BBT

i don't think csf is really getting townier but we can go here

[Infinity 324]

csf do you have a read on dunn

[Infinity 324]

I'm not sure why BBT is declining to share his thoughts about the Enchant/CSF wagons - the most likely eliminations. It's partly why I'm scumreading him, but also his interactions with froggo look like scum grilling town to me.

unsure if it it's just a playstyle thing but this is my feeling as well. it feels pretty nitpicky and a bit lamist

-simon

[Infinity 324]

like pushing what seems like a utr with 3 days left until the deadline is not super productive

[Infinity 324]

i mean after the past few pages i still don't have more than a slight scumlean on BBT. still prefer csf to be honest. i guess furtive is towny for agreeing with me there (also i don't really see a reason for scum to be starting a big fight here? maybe if like enchant is a buddy. idk)

[Infinity 324]

furtive (bbt was already under pressure)

[Infinity 324]

oh i was talking about the part where bbt was pushing froggo

[Infinity 324]

Do you mean 'prefer' eliminating CSF? Because you unvoted them.

we unvoted them when the wagon fell apart. i feel like it's important to have our vote on a wagon at this point in the day

[Infinity 324]

So giving this criticism after that happened feels off.

yeah i wasn't all the way caught up when i posted that

[Infinity 324]

gamma why do you like csf?

furtive feels towny to me tbh. i'm still not sure why he pushes BBT there so hard as scum.

not really into the enchant lim, the "think before i vote" thing is kinda meaningless to me and limming a contentless slot on d1 doesn't seem great. i'll vote there at deadline obviously though

[Infinity 324]

enchant needs to die and i think a night phase would help me get more engaged regardless

i need to review what gamma said about csf

also i need to see if i need to review my furtive read. vibes feel very towny but a systemmate is telling me that an enchant red flip would make furtive look bad

-ash

[Infinity 324]

furtive does enchant's flip change your reads at all?

-simon

[Infinity 324]

do you want to have day go on so you can finish those reviews or can they be done in the night phase?

i'll do them in the night phase

[Infinity 324]

enchant needs to die and i think a night phase would help me get more engaged regardless

What specifically made you think Enchant needs death?

claim is really scummy and it's pretty difficult to actually resolve with massclaim because there could be 0 or 2 doctors.

[Infinity 324]

yeah i guess the possibility of 0 doctors is more salient

[Infinity 324]

will get to this tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

this is probably not super relevant now, because i attribute a lot of the pressure on enchant to csf, but i promised to do it so

by play i really don't feel she's very towny even after looking over terminator. like i just don't agree that she was putting that much effort into looking town this game.

[Infinity 324]

Enchant scumflip makes BBT scum more likely imo, since this BBT post detracted from the Enchant wagon at the time.

i feel like furtive looks worse than bbt from this, because furtive started pushing bbt first. after looking over the interaction again, bbt's response feels pretty towny omgus.

[Infinity 324]

I still think Froggo is town. He seems to be posting whatever thoughts pop up into his head without a filter, so his thought process, while messy, does ring as genuine.

agreed with this basically. idk maybe there's some weird offsite thing that's screwing with my read but i feel very confident froggo is town on play.

[Infinity 324]

seeing the tildes in my preview edit makes me feel all powerful

[Infinity 324]

Thought I'd have a lot more heat coming in to this day and it has been in the back of my head how I will defend myself.

like is scum really that open about this?

[Infinity 324]

No no I'm pretty sure this kill was made by mafia lol

interested to hear your reasoning if appropriate

[Infinity 324]

I think furtive is probably town

why?

[Infinity 324]

Talk about Gamma being obvtown Klick?

not klick but gamma always shows his thought process without being too blunt about it--he's town without trying to look town. i've never seen him fake it as scum, so i'm pretty confident he's just town here

[Infinity 324]

Explanation for this read progression on Enchant would be good

i explained this already right? doc claim was obviously awful and needed to be resolved at some point, and massclaim doesn't necessarily help. like if there's no other doc claim do we leave enchant alive?

[Infinity 324]

aisa is somewhat towny

VOTE: BBT

i don't think csf is really getting townier but we can go here

Talk about this please Infinity.

at the time i was a bit worried about the deadline and felt like the csf vote wasn't really going anywhere. figured i would try to start a wagon on someone who i felt hadn't really towntold

[Infinity 324]

Although based on that wagon on me that got to e-2, I'd be willing to hop on infinity

-_- do you really think you've been towny enough to say this

[Infinity 324]

any thoughts on furtive after the night phase?

yeah like i said i'm liking furtive a lot less. i'll have to check in with the rest of the system because i remember someone saying they got townvibes, but they seem like a pretty reasonable enchant partner.

[Infinity 324]

I have a very dumb reason to think Dunn is Townie. He said how nobody called out the fact Enchant was different than in Terminator beforehand, right? I feel like an Enchant scumbuddy would know that was called out, and this seems like something very weird to fake. I dunno.

haha i like this

[Infinity 324]

I think I dislike 1035. Two things have been asked of Infinity, to do their re-eval and to explain their progression on Enchant. The first one takes time, but the second one shouldn't. So I'd kind of expect town!Infinity to say why they changed their mind on Enchant at least, while scum!Infinity is more likely to go "yeah sorry getting to this game tomorrow".

i've been hyperfocused on other stuff lately (i think it's cause of adhd meds) but fair.

pedit: i'm confused

[Infinity 324]

and then later comes wayyyy too soon for my taste, personally I imagined a day phase or two before the read would be made

i thought it would be later on too but /shrug, gamma wasn't being towny and i thought she would continue not to be towny

pedit: why does that post ever come from town

VOTE: furtive

[Infinity 324]

i still think that it's better kill someone who won't be limmed (and that's the approach most people on this site take i think)

[Infinity 324]

scum claims pr there 100% of the time, and doctor claim is one of the safest since there's no info you have to report and be held accountable for

[Infinity 324]

huh?? if someone knows they are town that is enough reason to say anything.

i mean not really? "you voted me and i'm town therefore you're scummy" isn't really an argument

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, are you scumreading me?

no, that would've been a hell of an aggressive bus

[Infinity 324]

You were one of the people who stayed away from the Enchant wagon and only voiced support for his lim after it was basically a foregone conclusion

i guess, it's just frustrating to get wagoned for things i can't really control. like maybe i should've been more convinced by the "need to think" thing, it just felt like such a small thing to me and limming someone who has like 3 posts on d1 i just don't feel is a great idea.

[Infinity 324]

Like, you knew Enchant was flipping red and dropped in that you need to reevaluate your Furtive read because he looks bad if scum Enchant. It all looks way too convenient.

ok i'm not going to not make a post because it looks convenient if I'm scum what do you want from me

[Infinity 324]

at the time i was a bit worried about the deadline and felt like the csf vote wasn't really going anywhere. figured i would try to start a wagon on someone who i felt hadn't really towntold

You were worried about the deadline? So you left a wagon/push with 3 votes on it (even though your read hadn't changed) to start pushing a brand new wagon (you were the first vote) because you were worried about the deadline?

Explain how that makes sense.

this is just playing mafia, a wagon you like isn't getting traction so you switch to another that you think might

[Infinity 324]

scum claims pr there 100% of the time, and doctor claim is one of the safest since there's no info you have to report and be held accountable for

A doctor also claims doctor 100% of the time in that scenario, too.

I'm struggling to understand your 'Enchant is 100% scum because they claimed Doc' after not being interested in elimming them at all.

there's more scum than doctors in the game zz

i felt that enchant was >50% to be scum which outweighs any reads if enchant were to somehow be incredibly towny for the rest of the game

i didn't see a world where enchant could live until endgame

[Infinity 324]

I'm not finding Infinity's recent posting towny either. Scumreading furtive's SK claim seems a bit surface level?

it's also like, town has to recognize how much confusion/wine that is gonna cause

also yeah i felt like furtive is >rand an enchant partner (and i'm not sure why y'all think i was setting it up as opposed to, just thinking about what my reads would look like on a red flip? it's clear that's what we were expecting anyway)

and our poe is starting to get thin

[Infinity 324]

This doesn’t really mesh w what Infinity seemed to think I was TR CSF for

oh, i guess talk more about that then? (if you think it's important)

[Infinity 324]

it's doesn't make sense from either Town or scum

i feel like it actually does make sense from scum? like either as a cheeky joke thing or as an actual ill-conceived sk crumb. idk I've seen traitor claim traitor to people as a "reaction test". maybe i'm silly for seeing that kind of thing here but it raises alarm bells.

[Infinity 324]

we can iso furtive again but i don't think the casual-ness to how he's been approaching the game is

that

much of a towntell

[Infinity 324]

This doesn’t really mesh w what Infinity seemed to think I was TR CSF for

oh, i guess talk more about that then? (if you think it's important)

My idea is that meta-reliant players, like myself, tend to refer back to just-finished games to update reads. It seems like CSF is that kind of player and was doing so here. If CSF is scum here, that seems like extra effort to produce fake reads that based on Terminator, I don’t think she bothers with.

hmm ok, but it doesn't seem like it would be that much extra effort to fake reads in this way rather than another way?

[Infinity 324]

also btw, the towncase itself might not be that convincing, but i don't think i've ever seen scum do something like that

not that scum wouldn't, but it fits with froggo being really open this whole game and generally very towny

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, talk about your vote and read on Furtive please.

i feel like we already have and not sure what else you want to know

[Infinity 324]

MDDVXTT

MDDXTTT

there could be 3 Ms or 4 Ds but that's less likely. (@gamma there can't be 2 M's cause that means there's no ic)

it doesn't make sense for sk!klick to claim here i don't think. unless we live in a strange world with an sk and a vig, klick becomes confirmed scum once the last mafia dies. klick could also be mafia who knows there's an sk in the game and decides the claim, but they end up with the same problem; once the sk dies klick is confirmed lying.

massclaim i think helps clear some stuff up but i'm tired and need to think about it more

[Infinity 324]

yeah i guess 1 T or 0 Ts just seems super unlikely to me but maybe that's gambler's fallacy since we know it's 3 Ts max

those setups seem between very difficult to lose and deterministic wins regardless. in the masons setups, scum (and sk) have to counterclaim the 1 VT or a PR and we just have enough mislims, especially since klick can't kill if they're sk since they become confirmed scum.

[Infinity 324]

it's probably not a great idea to try to analyze why scum voted one townie instead of another

[Infinity 324]

So, who's scum Infinity?

i'm lazy and feel like we can just win if we don't elim gamma, hiraki, or lucian

we also get a conftown from the last claim

[Infinity 324]

no but my thoughts as of right now and whoever's fronting is that masons should claim if they exist and otherwise the PR only needs to claim if they get run up

if there's 4 docs or something we'll probably be able to figure it out

[Infinity 324]

VT

[Infinity 324]

The difficult part is faking scum reads and Infinity doesn't seem to do so well in that area.

this is a. not true and b. i don't have many scumreads as town normally

[Infinity 324]

The difficult part is faking scum reads and Infinity doesn't seem to do so well in that area.

this is a. not true and b. i don't have many scumreads as town normally

If a) is not true, let's talk about your scum reads.

it's not true that it is more difficult to fake scum reads than any other type of read

[Infinity 324]

i don't know and i don't see why it's important that i answer that question

[Infinity 324]

i don't know and i don't see why it's important that i answer that question

Tomorrow might be ELO if we have an sk, so it's important that you try to solve

ehh it may be more loseable than i thought, but 3v1v1 isn't elo

i find it pretty unlikely people will listen to me regardless and will only solve if i feel like it

[Infinity 324]

aisa is our best guess for who the next elim should be.

[Infinity 324]

yeah i dont think lucian is groupscum he's very towny regardless

[Infinity 324]

aisa >rand scum who was like "what if i try to open the limpool infinity is dying at some point anyway" and misread the room

[Infinity 324]

i'm a doctor, protected lucian n1 and hiraki n2

[Infinity 324]

So why Lucian N1 instead of Hiraki

i wanted to try to big brain. it makes sense for scum to avoid hiraki with a likely doctor in the game

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: aisa

[Infinity 324]

that's not a crumb, just kill aisa next

[Infinity 324]

But also maybe this is a pointless exercise because there can only be one Mafia and one SK left, and both of them are outright throwing if they are CC'ing Infinity. Which means Infinity is always the one that should get voted here, I think.

i'm guessing aisa thought she was in trouble regardless and that maybe she could wine her way out of being limmed tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

i still think csf is a lot more likely to be sk than anyone else, the only reason i didn't want to pursue her is because of her role in the enchant elim

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: csf

despite our immediate reaction to the cc, i think aisa is probably town. 2.7% isn't really the probability of having 2 doctors, since the only other option is a specific setup. it's still unlikely, but probably the world we live in.

[Infinity 324]

ok i got 4% but you're probably scum somehow anyway

[Infinity 324]

the thing is that's literally how gamma plays as town

[Infinity 324]

There are three letters being "randed" here, and exactly two have to be D.

ok but you have to compare that against the scenario that they're both T right? unless we have masons who decided not to claim for whatever reason, it has to be DD or TT

[Infinity 324]

Then me being stuck in final 3 with Infinity and Aisa would be a wet dream. It is very likely the paranoia would set in and they'd vote each other.

gamma can you respond to this?

[Infinity 324]

yeah but we were just talking about how unlikely it is to be in the 2 doc setup, and i just said how i thought aisa was scum as a result

[Infinity 324]

sorry to everyone for not really giving 100%, we were already pretty demotivated and then got shitty sleep for 3 days