Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[militant]

Sorry about the recent inactivity on my part, a relative of mine fell ill, I have otherwise been preoccupied with visiting her. I will re read tomorrow and offer my opinions and thoughts then.

[farside22]

Vote: Natirasha

Also, see sig.

Explain yourself

?

BM

I think he is asking about the self vote that Nat does every game and every game someone ask him why he self voted.

Given that information, do you think it is wise to interrogate Nat?

BM

If I stated that the discussion has been done to death and it will never change Nat's way will that impede the discussion? Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum. I've seen many a people (mostly newbs) vote no lynch because they dont' know what is best. I don't really see many town people try and look scummy right out the gate to find scum. Few have done this but I find both points on whether a no lynch vote promotes discussion or someone pointing it out as scummy therefore is scum hypocritical at best. Either it's discussed or you find scum by looking scummy. The first person to discuss it isn't always the scum. I hear talks about jumping on scum tells early being scummy. I see town and scum fall into the trap. Its not a big tell.

[Sir Tornado]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

[curiouskarmadog]

Woah, Page 1 quickly begins the bandwagon train…nothing like a newbie to rock the boat.
Yay, haven’t played with an active BM in awhile.
Page 2, lost among the fluff between BM and Seraphim. IF Bm does anything, he does get conversation started.
Page 3-4 arguing over game theory. Jesus Christ..stop with the post pyramids.
Caught up…

Hoopla, no lynches are bad (at this point)…this is a newbie tell, nothing more.

Vote Sir Tornado,

I understand newbies attacking newbies for newbie tell, but you should know better…and even though you are not currently voting Hoopla, you jumped on that because…?

Why did you feel like Hoopla was scummy and deserving of your vote?

[Sir Tornado]

I understand newbies attacking newbies for newbie tell, but you should know better…and even though you are not currently voting Hoopla, you jumped on that because…?

Because of the no lynch vote.

[farside22]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

[farside22]

Also the few times I have seen town try a gambit such as what Hoopla has done it has been a town person more then scum that jump on the scum tell.

Here Aegor made a gambit out of the 4 people who voted only one was scum.
viewtopic.php?t=8602&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=25

This game Rishi also tries to act scummy. 2 people voted either were scum

viewtopic.php?t=8938&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=50

So far my experience is that as much as people try this method in a game it has yet to work exactly

[curiouskarmadog]

I understand newbies attacking newbies for newbie tell, but you should know better…and even though you are not currently voting Hoopla, you jumped on that because…?

Because of the no lynch vote.

and you know he is a newbie right?

[Shanba]

Guys, why are we not lynching seraphim?

Especially you, Sir T: what's up with the weak little FoS? Yos2 too.

I dont agree with Yos2's fos on Seraphim, or Shanba's vote on him. The way I read it, he voted Hoopla for first trying to generate discussion, then slamming down a vote on the first player to disagree with the move. At this point, when votes are used more as statements, or for pressure, than to actually lynch someone, I would have been more suspicious if he didn't unvote.

But nothing actually changed about the situation he was addressing: he only unvoted when BM called him on it. I don't see how you would have been more suspicious of him for

not

bowing to BM's pressure. I don't see what this has to do with statements and the purpose of votes at all. But perhaps I'm missing something?

Am I expected to read all your posts, BM?

Farside: I can offer a counter example. Ironically, it wasn't a gambit, as such, but the concept is the same: [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=300]

The two people who attacked me over my insignificant little lie were both mafia.

[Ectomancer]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

Ask Battle Mage if he knows a player that has done scummy things as scum on purpose because town falls into a "too scummy to be scum" mindset.

[Battle Mage]

I don't really see many town people try and look scummy right out the gate to find scum.

I can name at least 2 in this game.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

Newbie scum would deliberately try and look scummy? Really?

So, you dont think Hoopla is scum?

BM

[Battle Mage]

Woah, Page 1 quickly begins the bandwagon train…nothing like a newbie to rock the boat.
Yay, haven’t played with an active BM in awhile.
Page 2, lost among the fluff between BM and Seraphim. IF Bm does anything, he does get conversation started.
Page 3-4 arguing over game theory. Jesus Christ..stop with the post pyramids.
Caught up…

Hoopla, no lynches are bad (at this point)…this is a newbie tell, nothing more.

Vote Sir Tornado,

I understand newbies attacking newbies for newbie tell, but you should know better…and even though you are not currently voting Hoopla, you jumped on that because…?

Why did you feel like Hoopla was scummy and deserving of your vote?

Good to see you mate. Looking at this line-up, we're going to need all the help we can get!
And yeh, its been a while since we've played together as TOWN.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

Ask Battle Mage if he knows a player that has done scummy things as scum on purpose because town falls into a "too scummy to be scum" mindset.

"too scummy to be scum" isnt really used on MS, as only a small minority of us will even consider it an argument. But for it to work, you generally need a strong meta. Not really applicable in this case.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Guys, why are we not lynching seraphim?

Especially you, Sir T: what's up with the weak little FoS? Yos2 too.

I dont agree with Yos2's fos on Seraphim, or Shanba's vote on him. The way I read it, he voted Hoopla for first trying to generate discussion, then slamming down a vote on the first player to disagree with the move. At this point, when votes are used more as statements, or for pressure, than to actually lynch someone, I would have been more suspicious if he didn't unvote.

But nothing actually changed about the situation he was addressing: he only unvoted when BM called him on it. I don't see how you would have been more suspicious of him for

not

bowing to BM's pressure. I don't see what this has to do with statements and the purpose of votes at all. But perhaps I'm missing something?

Am I expected to read all your posts, BM?

Farside: I can offer a counter example. Ironically, it wasn't a gambit, as such, but the concept is the same: [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=300]

The two people who attacked me over my insignificant little lie were both mafia.

I agree with most of this. And no, i dont have any expectations of you atm. You're nothing to me.

BM

[farside22]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

Newbie scum would deliberately try and look scummy? Really?

So, you dont think Hoopla is scum?

BM

Newbies do look scummy because they are scum. Just notice Hoopla's join date, but as I said I don't think he is scum in this case.

[Battle Mage]

Honestly with him it's a null tell. There are better things to talk about it seems. Such as Hoopla's no lynch vote. Is it a scum gamble or town gamble trying to lure out scum.

Can you envisage a situation where this can be a scum gamble? If so, what is it?

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better. (IE looking scummy because they are scum). I could see someone who doesn't mind pressure that has enough experience trying the gambit. I don't believe Hoopla fits either category.

Newbie scum would deliberately try and look scummy? Really?

So, you dont think Hoopla is scum?

BM

Newbies do look scummy because they are scum.

what?? :S

BM

[farside22]

@Bm. You misunderstood my post. This was the key point.

I could see a newbie scum doing it that doesn't know any better.

[Yosarian2]

While I agreed that it might be a small pro-town tell, I'm confused as to why BM seems to be trying so hard to convince us that Hoopla is a 100% confirmed innocent...

[Ectomancer]

While I agreed that it might be a small pro-town tell, I'm confused as to why BM seems to be trying so hard to convince us that Hoopla is a 100% confirmed innocent...

Exactly, you would think that he would have tripped over this on his way to do so:

I'm going to disagree with the whole "someone who votes self or no lynch is probably town" based upon a meta. From what I've seen, this has become a common method for a game to be started, and as you know, anything that becomes recognized as a standard move for town becomes a standard move for scum as well.

[Sobeahero]

Don't want to go back teh page to quote, but this is directed at BM. :p

I did give a reason to vote for you. It looked suspicious to me for you to jump on the first guy who formed an opinion. Thats why I picked you over him. :p

And defenses was probably a bad word to use on my part. Your 'reasoning' is probably a better thing to say. :p

And in regards to the information on voting. I know any lynch can turn up information, so I should have specified you or GC can possibly give MORE information then others. :p

[OhGodMyLife]

Cancelled flight, 20 hours in the Cairo airport... gimme a day to recuperate.

[Battle Mage]

While I agreed that it might be a small pro-town tell, I'm confused as to why BM seems to be trying so hard to convince us that Hoopla is a 100% confirmed innocent...

I'm confused as to where you drew this conclusion from. Quotes?

BM

[Der Hammer]

this tactic of acting scum to catch scum just seems futile, as surely true scum would pick up on it and ignore it thus making a furore over nothing while true scum slip into day two?

[Ectomancer]

Sooo...what's up with these 2 posts BM?
First quote you say you can name 2 town members that are trying to look scummy right out of the gate.
Second quote, you tell CKD that you'll need him this game due to the lineup, and its been awhile since you've played town.

Could you explain what you mean? It sounds like you are saying that you know 2 or 3 town members right off the bat.

I don't really see many town people try and look scummy right out the gate to find scum.

I can name at least 2 in this game.

BM

Woah, Page 1 quickly begins the bandwagon train…nothing like a newbie to rock the boat.
Yay, haven’t played with an active BM in awhile.
Page 2, lost among the fluff between BM and Seraphim. IF Bm does anything, he does get conversation started.
Page 3-4 arguing over game theory. Jesus Christ..stop with the post pyramids.
Caught up…

Hoopla, no lynches are bad (at this point)…this is a newbie tell, nothing more.

Vote Sir Tornado,

I understand newbies attacking newbies for newbie tell, but you should know better…and even though you are not currently voting Hoopla, you jumped on that because…?

Why did you feel like Hoopla was scummy and deserving of your vote?

Good to see you mate. Looking at this line-up, we're going to need all the help we can get!
And yeh, its been a while since we've played together as TOWN.

BM