Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[Kmd4390]

Any response to the other people who are voting you?

[pacman281292]

I did answer to you (Kmd) and to Llama. If you think my answers are not good, please tell me and I'll explain. The only thing I don't see is why is Porochaz voting me.

[Jahudo]

Vote: Dukes

I don't agree with the case on pacman and I don't think he was being angry/abrasive, but maybe that's because I'm used to seeing things get out of control and negative.

Dukes is my top suspect and should be at L-2 if pacman is. I feel that Dukes has been testing the waters on various people throughout the day. This could be a town tell for active scumhunting, but I think he's looking for suspicious behavior without reading into them. To an extent I think he wanted to point out Zorblag's day 1 behavior and vote to give it attention, but he dropped the case until just recently but again didn't act on it.

1. He might have been trying to make poro guilty by association with Xtoxm when he FoS'ed them both and theoried the bussing idea.

2. When Llama questioned the motives of the people suspicious of poro day 1, Dukes replied to Llama with a mis-characterization/strawman of Llama's case:

I still think Llama's play is distressing, because he not only is convinced he's found a scum, he appears to be convinced he's found ALL the scum

3. Dukes early on suspected multiple people without reason, calling it a blind stab in the dark.

4. Created a suspicion list where he suspected pacman and GW partly for not posting enough, and suspected DP for pressuring someone who wasn't posting enough.

5. I already commented on his case against pacman and pacman's response, me feeling that they both made bad arguments and falsehoods. It might be a scum tell on pacman too, but he's been playing against my meta on him and he was playing in defense on this occasion.

[Porochaz]

Sorry my large post was blue screened yesterday and I cant really be bothered redoing it now in uni. Ill do it later

[farside22]

This vote count brought to you by Hyperchicken attnory at law. You looking to get out from that case against you well I'm Hyperchicken. You hire me and they will find you insane garenteed.

Dukes 4 votes: (pacman281292, Zorblag, kloud1516, Jahudo)

pacman281292 4 vote: (dukes, Kmd4390, LlamaFluff, Porochaz )

Not voting:

Drunken Piper
wolframnhart


Day 2 Deadline Nov 18th 4:00pm PST
With 10 alive it will take 6 to lynch.

[Kmd4390]

Wolf/DP, What are your thoughts on Pacman/Dukes?

[farside22]

Prodding LlamaFluff. DP stated he was on V/LA until today.

[LlamaFluff]

Explain. My discussion on you was just because your first posts looked weird to me by some weirder reason (but now when I think on it, it looks like Xtoxm screwed me...). Why do you think that my deffense on llama is bad and voteworthy?

What do you mean Xtoxm screwed you? Xtoxm never talked about you at all. I don't see any way for you to argue that the suspicion about you now is Xtoxm's fault? Do you mean that your reaction to Xtoxm's play has put you in a more precarious situation? How is that his fault more than yours?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

His posts confused me, and made me get a little overeager on Poro. Xtoxm's post confused me, and made me misinterprete Porochaz...

Its things like this that still are making me comfortable with my vote. When pacman seems to be half resigned to being the lynch for the day, and instead of really providing a solid defense, or better alternatives to his lynch, is just using slight AtE and saying that xtoxm is the main reason he is now getting lynched.

[Drunken Piper]

Back from the sites of the Windy City,
Still groggy from the airplane drugs, oh what a pity.

(sip) getting caught up from page 12.

In pacmans opening post he makes a joke vote. While in most cases there is nothing wrong with something like this, in this situation it is scummy. Shortly before this opening post, xtoxm claimed SK. I have a massive problem with you not even mentioning this, let alone not casting a vote, laying a FoS, or even commenting on who you believed. Random phase had just broken, so trying to revert to it is scummy.

I disagree with the thought process here. Pacman is scummy for not acknowledging X's claim? Why? How would mafia benefit by not mentioning this? Matter of fact, that would have been a great time to jump on a wagon with little to no heat. Now Llama does provide several reasons for his Pac vote (284), but this seems like a weak reason. Would you be saying that Pac was being pragmatic (and scummy) if he had acknowledged and voted X….this reason is feeling like tunnel vision, but maybe not.

Most of the other points I can see as scummy or how someone might think they are scummy.

@LlamaFluff
-It is valid that Pacman should have gone directly into the SK talk and ignored the random joke vote phase, but his joke post and his "I’m confused" post were 20 minutes apart in time so I disagree that he was trying to derail anything.

QFT

I also don't love that Drunken Piper took his vote off me overly. He was reading into my phrasing than was actually there but I liked the fact that he was looking carefully at what was said. As he hasn't done anything to implicate anyone else since voting for me I'd very much like to hear his thoughts at this time.

This is a strange post and has set off another alarm. This post seems like you are "ok" with my vote on you. Then you come back with a reverse OMGUS. As of this post you are attacking me for not attacking anyone else since my unvote WHEN I CLEARLY state that I am going to be out of town until today...I unvoted because I was going out of town and did want to leave my vote unattended without seeing your retort first.

Please explain why you have a problem with me removing my vote when I was going out of town? You feel that was scummy? Why?

Wolf/DP, What are your thoughts on Pacman/Dukes?

between the two, I am actually leaning Dukes as scum...I dont like how he handled the Poro/X incident yesterday. I dont like how he attacked me for my suspicion of GW while at the same time suspecting GW for the exact same reasoning.

my vote most likely will be going on Dukes...

would like to hear Zorblag answer my question before voting though.

[Zorblag]

Well, to my question of how Xtoxm screwed him on day one pacman281292 gave the following answer:

His posts confused me, and made me get a little overeager on Poro. Xtoxm's post confused me, and made me misinterprete Porochaz...

I don't find that to be particularly satisfying. Xtoxm clearly confused me as well with his play (I suspect that I spent more time than anyone else looking for alternative explanations) because the SK reveal seemed like such a bad play. It turns out it was just a bad play (so far as I can tell at this point; I suppose that I should wait till the game is over to be sure of that) but I'm not going to blame Xtoxm for how I've played the game.

At this point given all I've seen, I think that I'm not opposed to a pacman281292 lynch. I'm going to keep my vote on Dukes as I like his play a bit less but I won't do anything to oppose votes for pacman281292.

As for Drunken Piper's question about my comment about him:

I also don't love that Drunken Piper took his vote off me overly. He was reading into my phrasing than was actually there but I liked the fact that he was looking carefully at what was said. As he hasn't done anything to implicate anyone else since voting for me I'd very much like to hear his thoughts at this time.

This is a strange post and has set off another alarm. This post seems like you are "ok" with my vote on you. Then you come back with a reverse OMGUS. As of this post you are attacking me for not attacking anyone else since my unvote WHEN I CLEARLY state that I am going to be out of town until today...I unvoted because I was going out of town and did want to leave my vote unattended without seeing your retort first.

Please explain why you have a problem with me removing my vote when I was going out of town? You feel that was scummy? Why?

The fact that I was the one you were voting for was pretty incidental in this case. I don't feel that I've got a great idea of what you think of people in general. The vote for anyone gave me more information to work with. Unvoting didn't take the information away but it seemed unecessary as you were voting for someone who wasn't getting a lot of other expressed suspicion and wasn't in any legitimate danger of getting lynched while you were gone. My basic reaction was that if you felt strongly enough to vote in the first place there wasn't a need in that situation to unvote for the three days. Had you left the vote I would have gotten more of a sense of conviction than I got when you unvoted.

Having said that if I think it was scummy it was only very slightly scummy. Mostly it ties back to my lack of access to your thoughts thus far this game.

Also, my response to your vote happened directly after you cast the vote for me. There was no need to worry about waiting for that when you left for Chicago. You made no mention of that when you unvoted but you do seem to be citing it now.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[LlamaFluff]

In pacmans opening post he makes a joke vote. While in most cases there is nothing wrong with something like this, in this situation it is scummy. Shortly before this opening post, xtoxm claimed SK. I have a massive problem with you not even mentioning this, let alone not casting a vote, laying a FoS, or even commenting on who you believed. Random phase had just broken, so trying to revert to it is scummy.

I disagree with the thought process here. Pacman is scummy for not acknowledging X's claim? Why? How would mafia benefit by not mentioning this? Matter of fact, that would have been a great time to jump on a wagon with little to no heat. Now Llama does provide several reasons for his Pac vote (284), but this seems like a weak reason. Would you be saying that Pac was being pragmatic (and scummy) if he had acknowledged and voted X….this reason is feeling like tunnel vision, but maybe not.

I think that anyone ignoring a major development in the game, especially one that occured in the early stages of the game and effectively removed it from the random stage to be a scummy action. When an event is a roleclaim of an anti-town role, I dont see how you would not comment on it. The fact that xtoxm basically OMGUSed Poro by calling him scum rolecop (which he almost 100% isnt), made the ignorance of this event more interesting then normal to me.

This time by not paying attention to the argument that was brewing, he does not have to take a stance either way on if they are just joking around, or if they are being serious. By not having to take a stance on them being serious, he is able to see what way the town sways before deciding to come in with an opinion one way or the other. He did not take a stance untill post 108, which allowed multiple pages of discussion and a concensus was already being reached.

So it may just be my playstyle, but I consider the ignorance of the claim scummy.

[pacman281292]

Explain. My discussion on you was just because your first posts looked weird to me by some weirder reason (but now when I think on it, it looks like Xtoxm screwed me...). Why do you think that my deffense on llama is bad and voteworthy?

What do you mean Xtoxm screwed you? Xtoxm never talked about you at all. I don't see any way for you to argue that the suspicion about you now is Xtoxm's fault? Do you mean that your reaction to Xtoxm's play has put you in a more precarious situation? How is that his fault more than yours?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

His posts confused me, and made me get a little overeager on Poro. Xtoxm's post confused me, and made me misinterprete Porochaz...

Its things like this that still are making me comfortable with my vote. When pacman seems to be half resigned to being the lynch for the day, and instead of really providing a solid defense, or better alternatives to his lynch, is just using slight AtE and saying that xtoxm is the main reason he is now getting lynched.

BZZZT...
You are misinterpreting.
Xtoxm's play confused me, but I didn't mean that Xtoxm is the guilty of my actions.
The main reasons I'm being lynched are, as I see:
My case against Dukes (and I can't see why)
My crappy posts about Porochaz
My random votes day 1 (Dukes really misrepresentated that to all, and Llama is also trying to use it against me, just because I didn't believe Xtoxm's claim (something that is pretty incredible...)

Answering well to you (Llama):
I've deffended myself, didn't you see? Yeah, I'm a little resigned because the ones voting me are looking like not removing their votes (mostly Dukes and you).
... doesn't know how to finish the post...

[wolframnhart]

Just got home after a crazy long day at work, will post up tomorrow and answer question, by kmd i think it was.

[Jahudo]

This time by not paying attention to the argument that was brewing, he does not have to take a stance either way on if they are just joking around, or if they are being serious. By not having to take a stance on them being serious, he is able to see what way the town sways before deciding to come in with an opinion one way or the other.

But what do you think about DP saying that scum could've jumped on that wagon with little or no heat? I don't think the argument here is that pacman didn't have a stance on what to do with an anti-town role. We learn that he didn't believe the claim, so the stance he could've been stronger on was what to do with jester/WIFOM situation.

I'm sure it's also WIFOM to think that scum would take one stance or any stance at all in the "X is SK so what do we do with him" debate, but I agree that it was an opportune moment for scum to take a stance rather than ignore it.

[Dukes]

BZZZT...
You are misinterpreting.
Xtoxm's play confused me, but I didn't mean that Xtoxm is the guilty of my actions.
The main reasons I'm being lynched are, as I see:
My case against

Dukes

(and I can't see why)
My crappy posts about Porochaz
My random votes day 1 (

Dukes

really misrepresentated that to all, and Llama is also trying to use it against me, just because I didn't believe Xtoxm's claim (something that is pretty incredible...)

Answering well to you (Llama):
I've deffended myself, didn't you see? Yeah, I'm a little resigned because the ones voting me are looking like not removing their votes (mostly

Dukes

and you).
... doesn't know how to finish the post...

Really, you don't have to finish the post. It's pretty clear what you're doing here, which is to say that the other person who's up for elimination is the one putting you up for elimination. While I understand the panic move and likely would be -- would be? Heck, am -- doing the same thing, it's not much to go on and frankly, the two of us yelling at each other doesn't help matters.

Since we're both on L-2, why don't we put all our cards on the table right now. Here's my defense:

1.

I have fully roleclaimed.

Believe it or disbelieve it, I have at least a full claim of a main character in the series that no one has counter-claimed on yet.

2.

There's a clear moment where my play changes.

If you look at Day 2, you can see when the light goes on for me. Most of my early play is a survival play, under the misguided opinion that such was a prereq to winning. Ever since, I've been much more forthcoming and more analytical of others' posts. You, meanwhile, have stuck on me like glue.

3.

I'm trying to find a second scum.

Your most recent post towards Llama is the only time I can find evidence that you've even questioned anyone outside of me. Just as before, though, it's due to his questioning you.

4.

I've commented fully on everyone.

And I'll do it again, because this may be my last post before getting lynched:

* Pacman -- The reason you're highest on my list has nothing to do with a misinterpretation or anything else. It has to do with how you're reacted to being suspected -- that is to say, by becoming highly defensive and getting laser-vision on the "other" suspect. Yes, there's an element of pot/kettle/black here, but the record shows I was the first to vote for you, and nothing you've done since has convinced me it's a bad idea. The "BZZZZT" is just another example of the kind of play that's off-putting and really lowers my opinion of you town-wise.

* Zorblag -- I don't fault him for focusing on me to the exclusion of others, because a lot of that is my own nervousness kicking in. Truth is, he's provided strong cases to clear quite a few people, and I can't find a flaw in his logic. I'm not 100% convinced on him (or anyone else), but if he's scum he's playing an outstanding stealth game. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

* Kloud -- Kloud seems very active in this game, and his posts have been some of the most detailed thus far. Sure, they've gotten into tl;dr territory at times, but once I force myself to digest them, I find myself agreeing with him more. He's the closest thing to a slam-dunk townie I can find thus far.

* Jahudo -- I'm having all sorts of trouble figuring Jah out. That he was the most recent to vote shows he was staying on the fence for a long time, which works in his favor. Oddly, so does his vote on me; this may be faulty logic, but when you have a town player on L-2 and you're scum, it makes more sense to pretend you see the argument against him and push him to L-1. That he didn't indicates he in sincere in his beliefs. It hardly is the smoking gun, but it's worth noting.

* KMD -- I may be biased since KMD has been pulling me along into the world of Mafiascum and the different style, but I'm willing to clear him. In the short time he's been in the game, he has been very active and has called just about everyone out for an opinion. It also helps that he's giving reasons for asking for more, as opposed to just asking.

* Llama -- Something about Llama doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on it, but what others can claim is scum-hunting strikes me as too scatter-shot to be of any use. I'm not going to say he's sure scum at all, but if I survive Day 2 only to turn up dead Night 2, he might be worth a few probes.

* Porochaz -- Did we clear him too fast? X claimed he was scum, and we had a debate as to whether that was possible before lynching X, seeing him flip SK, and putting the whole thing to bed. Much like Jah, it's hard for me to get a read on him, but this time it's more a sense of his short posting. Voting for pacman because of a lack of theme knowledge seems rather... odd.

* DP -- Given that he was V/LA all weekend, and less acting when he was here, I have next to nothing on him. I'll pass.

* Wolfram -- Well, to be fair, he added theme humor early on, and I'm not sure whether that was his idea of a roleclaim or not. If it was, he's definitely town; if it wasn't, it's a great smokescreen. He's been in the background quite a bit in this game, which doesn't strike me as a tell, and he's been one of the people probing for more info when he does speak. So for now, I'm inclined to believe he's town.

So, Pacman, if this is the end for one of us, put your cards on the table next to mine. Who are you? I don't think L-2 is too soon to ask for that. And how much do you know / think you know about the rest of the field?

[Kmd4390]

Dukes, that's a really weak defense and not a lot of suspicions. It looks more like an attempt to survive than honest thoughts.

[wolframnhart]

Ok really sorry al for the past few days of non real posting, as i said, been a long day(s) at work and i haven't had alot of time to focus.

@KMD

My thoughts so far on Pacman and Dukes is that I am more inclinde to believe Pacman as town more then Dukes. Dukes has given me an odd vibe as i stated before. His most recent post asking pacman to claim, more on the basis that Dukes has already claimed and Pacma being at L-2 he should claim as well, to me seems more like a scum trying to findout a persons role before they possibly die, so their team an hopefully make a good NK. Pacman hasn't really done anthing that screams scummy to me. His "BZZT" comment that rubbed Dukes the wrong way seems more playful to me then anything, and to comment on it like it is a warning signal as Dukes did is odd, it is more like Dukes is reaching for anything to point out agaist Pacman to get people to vote him.

As it is I honestly thought I had already done this, but as i said i haven't been able to focus so missing doing this doesn't surprise me:

vote Dukes

[Porochaz]

even without the lost long post, it should be obvious that Im not voting pacman for theme reasons, the reason I asked was because a part of what would make sme of his posts excusable is if he didnt know futurama. I would still be likely voting for him.

[Drunken Piper]

this puts Dukes at one before he dies.
trying to see through discussion and lies.

(sip)

Also, my response to your vote happened directly after you cast the vote for me. There was no need to worry about waiting for that when you left for Chicago. You made no mention of that when you unvoted but you do seem to be citing it now.

to be safe and while away from my shack..
I will

unvote

until I get back

Made no mention my ass, "To be safe" while I was away, I unvoted so my vote was not unattended. Things can happen very fast in this game. Unless I am absoutely certian about my vote and suspicions I always unvote if I am leaving.

My problem with you is that you are implying that a.) you found my unvote strange and b.) You attempt to deflect saying I havent suspected anyone else. "As he hasn't done anything to implicate anyone else since voting" I hadnt done anything else because I was busy...you posted that on 299, I voted you on 280, I unvoted and left on 298...I only really suspected you at that point and did not feel it important to talk about anyone else.

I also note that Dukes defends you with a "to be honest" comment in 282 when you are voting him. Interesting enough your vote is on Dukes, but you are supporting a Pac lynch(334). trying to gain support to get heat off your buddy? But wanting to test the waters first so it doesnt look scummy?

when Dukes flips scum, I know who his partner is.

vote Dukes

[Dukes]

My thoughts so far on Pacman and Dukes is that I am more inclinde to believe Pacman as town more then Dukes. Dukes has given me an odd vibe as i stated before. His most recent post asking pacman to claim, more on the basis that Dukes has already claimed and Pacma being at L-2 he should claim as well, to me seems more like a scum trying to findout a persons role before they possibly die, so their team an hopefully make a good NK. Pacman hasn't really done anthing that screams scummy to me. His "BZZT" comment that rubbed Dukes the wrong way seems more playful to me then anything, and to comment on it like it is a warning signal as Dukes did is odd, it is more like Dukes is reaching for anything to point out agaist Pacman to get people to vote him.

1. Well, OF COURSE, I want people to vote him! I think he's scum! That really sounds self-justifying to me.

2. Believe me, if I were scum, Pacman would be an awful NK, because his play has heaped suspicion on himself and that would be the person to keep alive.

3. A lot of what Pacman has done has been very unhelpful at this point, and I can't think of a single instance in which he's really pushed anything beyond me.

4. When I focus on someone, it's desperation, but when he does it it's good playing? No. That's not how it's supposed to work. What he's doing is not playful, it's not helpful, and it's really not getting us anywhere.

5. You want honest thoughts? Here's an honest thought: I'm the new guy in a group of people who all played together in a previous Mafia. Therefore, you're all used to each other and willing to hang back on each other, while everything I've said has been dissected, twisted, picked apart, thrown back in my face, and criticized at a level I haven't seen for the rest of the player

combined

. When I list multiple sentences for each person, it's "that sounds like a bad defense". Someone else gives one line -- half a sentence, if that -- for each person, and you're willing to say "okay, makes sense to me". If this gets me lynched, fine, whatever. But what kind of game is it where I feel like there's a level of xenophobia working against me from the very beginning?

6. In conclusion, bite my shiny metal ass.

[farside22]

Dukes 6 votes: (pacman281292, Zorblag, kloud1516, Jahudo, wolframnhart, Drunken Piper)

pacman281292 4 vote: (dukes, Kmd4390, LlamaFluff, Porochaz )

With the final vote cast. The six crew members circled Dukes.
"You guys are nuts. I'm lazy, I drink booze and I could give a crap about people.....well I'm not perfect, but I'm part of the Planet Express crew."
We have had enough. You must be destroyed.
"Bite my shiny metal ass."
With that pacman, zorblag and kloud grabbed Dukes by the arm. Jahudo and wolframhart pulled Dukes head off.
"I am Bender please insert gerter."
"I am Bender, please insert gerter."
What do you know he is Bender.
Drunken Piper strugs his shoulders as he pulls Dukes/Benders wires out from his hardware.
All this time was spent you find nothing at all on Dukes but cold wires and a smart mouth.

Dukes - Bender – lovable drunk (aka townie) - disassembled day 2

Night 2 deadline is Friday November 14th, 9:00am PST

[farside22]

This is Good Morning Earth with your hosts Morbo and Linda.

Morbo: There is nothing good about mornings on Earth.
Linda: Hehe oh Morbo.
Morbo: The news today is grim as another alien lifeform was destroyed instead of a human. We go live to Planet Express for details.

Professor Farnsworth: Whaaat?
Hermes: If you don't mind I will state the facts here. This morning we found crew member Llamafluff missing from the morning meeting. Upon search of his room we found ourselves momentarily stopped till we were able to close his eyes. Unfortunately not everyone loved the Hypnotoad.
He was shot thru the head. However did it, did it while he wasn't looking.
Fry: Man there goes one of my favorite shows off the air now.

Morbo: Yes indeed a sad day at that. We pay tribute to you Hypnotoad.

Llamfluff - Hypnotoad - Hail to thee (aka Role blocker) shot night 2

Day 4 deadline is December 4th, 10:30am PST

With 8 alive it will take 5 to lynch

[Kmd4390]

Vote Pacman

My opinion hasn't changed since Day 2.

[Jahudo]

@wolf: Why did you refrain from judging pacman until your vote on Dukes? If you FoS'ed Dukes early on in day 2, why did you not pursue him more up until your vote? Why did you largely ignore Dukes?

@DP: Why did you refrain from judging pacman until the post before your vote on Dukes? Why did you largely ignore Dukes besides his attack on your meta suggestion for GW?

Wolf gives an suspicion on dukes back in post 208 and post 225, and then some discussion about Dukes here: post 265.

Wolf talks about pacman here, post 311, but it sounds more like not understanding the pacman vote rather than defending pacman.

Wolf then votes dukes here post 341 while talking about both dukes and pacman. Again I don't see it as a defense of pacman but as not understanding what pacman did scummy.

DP kind of suspects Dukes here, post 230, but I don't think it's that strong. Then he switches from voting Ghost to Zorblag, then later on a post here
post 333 that suspects Dukes and also doesn't agree with the case against pacman. He said he'd likely vote Dukes. His next post, post 343, comes a day later where he hammers Dukes.

At least I see some buildup to a vote for wolf, but with DP I did not know what he was feeling and he kept his suspicions on Dukes quiet until he hammered. Not helpful.

FoS: DP

@Also DP: What do you make of Zorblag's maybe minor attempt to switch wagons from Dukes to pacman given that Dukes is town?

1. I have fully roleclaimed. Believe it or disbelieve it, I have at least a full claim of a main character in the series that no one has counter-claimed on yet.

Does anyone else think we should decide a way to popcorn roles throughout today, given that if there might be 3 scum (I doubt it though) we would need to get one of them today or at night.

[Drunken Piper]

this is my second attempt to write this.
if it doesnt go through, upon this computer, I will piss.

(sip)

@DP: Why did you refrain from judging pacman until the post before your vote on Dukes? Why did you largely ignore Dukes besides his attack on your meta suggestion for GW?

When did I ever judge pacman? I (like you) did not like the pacman cases presented. I questioned (judged) those cases, and didnt like the wagon based on that. Funny you say I ignored Dukes...compared to who? I stated several times (more that what you indicated) what I didnt like about Dukes. Not sure why you are trying to spin that I ignored him when that isnt the case what so ever. I am getting a pretty pro-town read off you, so I assume that you are just trying to scum hunt, but something about the way the question is worded bothers me. Not so much the FoS (noting no FoS on wolf)...but the fact that you instantly attacking two people on the Dukes lynch, that you yourself was on.

@Also DP: What do you make of Zorblag's maybe minor attempt to switch wagons from Dukes to pacman given that Dukes is town?

Nothing I guess. I was pretty sure after Zorblag's last minute mention of the pac wagon that I saw one scum trying to help another...there was no team there.

KMD, thoughts with your vote?

more to come when I have time.