hi, i'm large normal 242. and i'm over with.

[Lukewarm]

You know, I'll throw you a bone here, let's use your gross over simplification of what happened here even though that wasn't the case and you can easily use context clues to see what did happen. If I wanted to see if Cape would switch I just don't need to bring up Math at all, I'm self-aware enough to know as a wolf how my posts will look in the thread, you don't just put a very basic "omg hey what do you think of this player" that's scum textbook 101. The only time I ever said it could be Math was that I "paused" at the gang up but besides that? Always Enchant.

I think that asking a player to explain their incorrect read is a used tactic to get that player to start thinking it more strongly, yes.

Out of literally everyone Enchant, I have been the only person that has voiced a lean towards Math and not you

You can try to convince me on why it's Math/Luke and not Enchant/Luke sure.

where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase

I feel like I was pretty clear that I was waiting for Cape to tell me what they thought of my case on Enchant, and making sure we were on the same page.

I cannot even really grasp why you are trying to frame that as a scummy thing for me to do tbh.

[MariaR]

There is no reason for me to just... re introduce the wagon on my partner here.

-----

So my first vote day 3 was BCG, but then also only vote on Day 4 was on Johnny. I don't feel like I am prone to bussing, if anything, I would rather a partner go the distance then me doing it, I just... would not bus this slot so hard.

Johnny was going down with or without your help. That slot was dead as soon as it claimed the bodyguard, did you see how fast that slot went over? You weren't some key piece in getting them over like I was for Pooky for example.

As for BCG. Tbh, I could probably go back and while off the top of my head I believe that slot was already being talked about and if I had to put my money on it knowing BCG aka Koba, he was probably asking to be bussed, I mean how else were you gonna build up the cred you needed to win? Like, you're saying you just would not do xyz and sure, I've used that example myself so in theory they're both moot points but your point is you wouldn't bus already drowning slots 1 and 2.

My "I wouldn't bus" is being the reason at least 2 wolves are dead, big dif here.

Finally, I think that I would have just killed you Cape, instead of Math.

Math already thought that it was Maria, and at that point all I would have had to do is argue "Math, Maria is trying to WIFOM you into voting wrong by bringing you to ELO"

That seems like the path of least resistence, then coming in with you being the decider given you have scum read me off and on all game.

I can use this exact argument for why I wouldn't NK Toog. You're trying to act like this point isn't WIFOM when it is WIFOM. If you're gonna dismiss my point at least treat yourself fairly tsk tsk.

[MariaR]

I feel like I was pretty clear that I was waiting for Cape to tell me what they thought of my case on Enchant, and making sure we were on the same page.

I cannot even really grasp why you are trying to frame that as a scummy thing for me to do tbh.

You cannot think of a valid reason for why you were sitting there doing nothing when you claimed to be the most confident player*

I'm telling you guys scumhunting 101 if their actions do not line up with their words it's probably one of the most obvious wolf bus tactics in the world I use it to catch so many wolves. See, I can have a good villager game woooo

[MariaR]

I think it's obvious Luke is fumbling. If you need anything else Cape lmk.

[schadd_]

oh i didnt put a post on top... lol

Spoiler:

vote count 7.1 !

MariaR (1):

Lukewarm

Lukewarm (1):

MariaR

not voting (1):

Cape90

with 3 alive, it takes 2 to blow someone up. day 7 ends in (expired on 2022-11-30 23:33:12)

modorator notes

• baba

[Lukewarm]

But hey, if we're wanting to question the willingness to vote let's look at you again, where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase. The only thing you ever said was "I want to make sure me and Cape are on the same page" that...does not stop you from voting and with the amount of confidence you displayed the whole phase more then anyone else, you didn't vote. You waited until Cape or I would've voted because you were the one hanging back. You wanted to bus Enchant by merely saying you were gonna vote them but never did.

I made my case that it was enchant, but if Cape read it and still thought it was Math, then the next step if to see why Cape disagrees with me.

So long as we disagreed, I did not want to vote, because it takes agency away from Cape. Like, can you imagine if I was wrong, and cape was right, and I voted before we agreed? That would feel pretty shitty.

[Lukewarm]

I feel like I was pretty clear that I was waiting for Cape to tell me what they thought of my case on Enchant, and making sure we were on the same page.

I cannot even really grasp why you are trying to frame that as a scummy thing for me to do tbh.

You cannot think of a valid reason for why you were sitting there doing nothing when you claimed to be the most confident player*

I'm telling you guys scumhunting 101 if their actions do not line up with their words it's probably one of the most obvious wolf bus tactics in the world I use it to catch so many wolves. See, I can have a good villager game woooo

My actions were:

"trying to convince Cape it was enchant"

You are the one trying to say that the only action that mattered was casting the vote. Which, yes. If we were not in elo, but were confirmed there was scum between enchant/math I would have voted enchant there. But we were in ELO

[MariaR]

But hey, if we're wanting to question the willingness to vote let's look at you again, where you once again have refused to explain why you didn't vote Enchant the whole dayphase. The only thing you ever said was "I want to make sure me and Cape are on the same page" that...does not stop you from voting and with the amount of confidence you displayed the whole phase more then anyone else, you didn't vote. You waited until Cape or I would've voted because you were the one hanging back. You wanted to bus Enchant by merely saying you were gonna vote them but never did.

I made my case that it was enchant, but if Cape read it and still thought it was Math, then the next step if to see why Cape disagrees with me.

So long as we disagreed, I did not want to vote, because it takes agency away from Cape. Like, can you imagine if I was wrong, and cape was right, and I voted before we agreed? That would feel pretty shitty.

Okay so...what happened between all the time Cape was talking and made it clear they were prob gonna vote Enchant, also while it's obvious you made up this reasoning on the spot because if this was how you really felt you would've stated this way sooner or made other actions during 5P to talk to Cape or Math for that matter but outright didn't.

Like you're trying to say you weren't that confident it was Enchant enough to pause and wait for Cape

when your own posts outright show you never reconsidered once never looked at any other angle. So yeah, I'm not buying that you were somehow not confident enough it was Enchant that you paused because it would "feel bad" for Cape.

[Lukewarm]

"wanting to be on the same page with other townies before voting in elo"

is just... something that seems fairly straight forward.

Cape, if you actually want me to respond more to this I will. I feel like I can fairly reasonably prove that that is something that I think about games. I had a past game in a guardians set up, where I was in Elo with me+Dunn+unwnd. Out side of that was an IC ffery who could not vote in the ELO.

I was REALLY sure that it was unwnd. Cased him multiple times, engaged in repeated back and forths with her on it. Because she did not agree with me, and she thought it was Dunn. I was not willing to vote Unwnd until ffery and I agreed.

I eventually gave up on convincing her, and voted Dunn, because working with her was more important to me then just... voting my scum read in ELO

[MariaR]

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

to me math feels more calculated which is the hold up for me but honestly, I think we go Enchant

I feel like I have made my case on it being Enchant -- but this still seems like you are not really sure.

Is there anything else you need before we vote enchant?

These are your

only

posts in regard talking to Cape about trying to "convince" anyone and your case itself, the one you quoted was not even a good case, probably on purpose. Like, you're actibng like you spend most of the dayphase trying to get on the same page as Cape when you outright didn't, you meant the dayphase defending yourself from me and talking to Enchant to try and get some bs partner interactions.

Your main line of defend on why you're a villager legit doesn't even exist. You can't just talk it into reality.

[MariaR]

Ah yes the classic "I have meta of me doing this in another game so surely that means it happened in this game"

Here's my meta: Cape you have a full scumgame that shows if I'm a wolf I know how to bus properly and play around mech to get me a win and I would not have gone silent during mech city as a wolf to get me a win. My wolf game is night and day to this.

But even without meta I think this is still easy.

[Lukewarm]

Ah yes the classic "I have meta of me doing this in another game so surely that means it happened in this game"

You are just speaking into existence the idea that a townie would never hold off voting in ELO when they think that they have the answer just to get on the same page with another townie.

I responded by saying that that... is just how I approach games.

And you came back with "nuh, uh, a townie would never"

[Lukewarm]

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

to me math feels more calculated which is the hold up for me but honestly, I think we go Enchant

I feel like I have made my case on it being Enchant -- but this still seems like you are not really sure.

Is there anything else you need before we vote enchant?

These are your

only

posts in regard talking to Cape about trying to "convince" anyone and your case itself

Ah yes. Lets just cut off all of the case, to reframe it how you want.

Do we know for sure that Chungus is Koba? I think I saw someone say that Chungus is Koba

Enchant is kinda just like the other games I have played with Enchant so I do not know how to actually read that slot at all

Counterpoint this other game Enchant has been a part of which contradicts everything I just said: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=88671

VOTE: Enchant

Easiest mafia game of my life

anyone who claims they can accurately read enchant is a liar, especially while trying to hamfist meta into the read. that being said i have the slot in PoE and could even feasibly be paired with frog/gamma

I am asking this, because Koba has previously told me to "Get Gud" when I said something along the lines of "Enchant is hard to read"

So, this is not a think that Koba actually thinks about Enchant. And he is using a false statement his own thoughts on Enchant to soft defend enchant from Cape here.

JohnnyFarrar Big Chungus Gaming, Crescent
PookyTheMagicalBear

Enchant Nero
Math, and Charloux


Pooky:
The first time Enchant shows up on Pooky's iso is here

I'm going to sleep on this.

I'd love your thoughts on where we should go Pooky.

I'm happy to kill anyone on this list:

marci
Enchant
MT

BCG

But this is after Pooky had several votes, including BCG, and was the leading wagon at the time. He had not voiced a scum read on Enchant prior to being put in that position. Nero's name does not exist in pooky's iso

He also... doesn't vote anyone on this list here. He is still on frog. A couple pages latter he votes BCG.

So, clearly he was not actually trying to push through a wagon on any of these names. I think I can see him putting 2 partners here.

I get nothing from chungus wrt to math

Pooky feels to me like he is trying to play around Math in a way to keep Math from attacking him, not like he is his partner Especially the detail he threw in to town read math here does not feel like a partner read

mathblade repped in at page 55 and proceeded to spam up half the posts from 55->59 and its mostly nonsense therefore he's town;

like look at this gem of a post:

VOTE: Cape90

VOTE: Crescent

Pooky is nagl with 0 posts from Cape/Crescent in between

Toog seems to be following his d1 promise, so null on Toog

Pooky is being anti Pooky so nagl but I am not sure if it’s because I don’t understand Pooky

saying its not a good look for me to move my vote from Cape to Crescent.

When Crescent has like 2 posts atp and I literally explained why I voted for Crescent, but instead of reading my iso to figure out why I voted for Crescent dude only look at "what did Cape or Crescent do in between Pooky's votes?"

That is a thought process and it's a very literal one, it's a "nothing happened therefore Pooky shouldn't change his vote thus SUSP"

it ignores the fact that the obvious explanation is I didn't notice Crescent was AWOL until I voted for her because I'm not aware of everything.

Like I can see him going through that thought process and going hmmm this is shady what is going on.

whereas if he's scum I don't think he plays it that way because its just dumb and is asking me to pay attention to him and he mostly doesn't want me to do that when he's scum because he thinks I can read him close to perfectly.

It is also just hard for me to think that Math scum would have never... just, relented in Titus's attempt to kill me.

Especially yesterDay, when letting Titus get a miselim on me walks into Elo with Titus able to potentially be eliminated in either 5p elo or 3p elo because of it.

Cape, I think that we should just vote Enchant here. If it is Math, then I guess he deserves the win

[Lukewarm]

I am going to go back and respond to Maria's counter points to my original case

[Lukewarm]

The thing that stands out to me, is that at the start of day, Toog was her biggest scum read based on her entrance, and when those votes piled up Toog was one of them. Like, yes, I know that NM and Math were there too, but she is not responding at all to the fact that her biggest scum read just naked voted onto this quick forming wagon.

This is compounded when you look at her leaving the BCG wagon. When she leaves, NM is still there calling the slot scum, and if she was there just to sheep conf town NM, then why does she leave to be The First Vote on a new wagon? Or was she sheeping Math, who was only there to sheep NM and Toog?

Let's focus on this given the rest is just needless fluff. I do not care where my scumreads vote, I've already made this clear. Wolves bus, wolves can vote partners like they have this game. If you just didn't vote where your big scumread was going...well you wouldn't win games. If I vote with my scumreads and someone flips scum I need to relook at the game, it's why I relooked frog and then they died. But if they flip villager, hey I was probably right. I never take into account where my scumread is voting unless it's maybe 2/3 wolves all on one wagon but that's an extreme case.

Do not act like this doesn't happen, because you know it does. I had the best reads in this game and they adapted you're not showing what action I took as a wolf, you're just trying to point out faults but hey kudos I guess.

This is a nothing response.

My point is that when you look at her reads [STD, Malcolm, Toog scum] it does not make sense that she is suddenly jumping on and then back off of the BCG wagon there.

BCG was not in her scum pile.

But she voted.

So then I looked to see if she was maybe just sheeping. But she scum read Toog. So does not look like she was sheeping Toog. She left the wagon while NM was still on it. So does not look like she was sheeping NM. And Math was only there to sheep Toog/NM..

So, looking at it, it did not make sense to me that, given her reads at the time, for her vote to have moved the way that it did.

But conversely, I could see the scum!motivation to both joining the wagon and leaving the wagon.

So I thought it made her more likely to be scum.

Her response to this was: I don't care if Toog was also voting there.

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

[Lukewarm]

Side note:

The Toog read

As soon as Pooky flipped scum, Maria immediately had Toog as his scum partner

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Obv mafia 1 dead
VOTE: Toogeloo
Next.

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

If toog is mafia, I am just suspecting people that don't try day 1 only to actually become helpful day 2. Happened with Pooky after all. Not interested in exploring that until later

You mean the 2 people who voted together all the time and didn't try day 1 are prob mafia? Gasp.

But the issue that I have here, is that is makes this feel like it was fake nuance

Subject: hi, i'm large normal 242. you and i are day 6

Do you think Toog and Frog are both bussing Pooky?

Maybe, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be.

I find it semi unlikely Too/Pooky are together given how similar their play is but meh.

Pooky is a follower claim, if they went over it wouldn't be the end of the world.
What part of my reads don't match my play?

The fact that the moment Pooky flipped scum, Maria immediately went to Toog as a super obvious partner, makes it obvious that she never actually thought this in 2193.

"I find it semi unlikely Too/Pooky are together given how similar their play is"

and

"You mean the 2 people who voted together all the time and didn't try day 1 are prob mafia?"

Are like, intrinsically opposite thoughts.

X being true is

unlikely because of reason Y

, but could be possible
X being true is

very likely because of reason Y

You mean...reads can't change? Wow.

But yes, if you look at Toogs entire iso he just gave people his vote. And sheeped Pooky my biggest wolfclaim and voted me. Of course I'm gonna call that wofly. Do you notice the moment Toog started posting more then one sentence and played the game I called him a villager cause he started trying, strange how that works

Yes. Reads change. In response to NEW information. Or even information that you are now reading in a different light.

But she was using the SAME information to call him unpartnered in one post, and then call him obviously partnered in the other.

That is not reads developing.

if you look at Toogs entire iso he just gave people his vote. And sheeped Pooky my biggest wolfclaim and voted me. Of course I'm gonna call that wofly.

My whole point was that all of this was true at the time that she wrote that they were unlikely to partnered. So, it is hard to look at it and think that she thought both things were true, and was actually just making up nuance as she wrote the earlier post.

[MariaR]

Ah yes the classic "I have meta of me doing this in another game so surely that means it happened in this game"

You are just speaking into existence the idea that a townie would never hold off voting in ELO when they think that they have the answer just to get on the same page with another townie.

I responded by saying that that... is just how I approach games.

And you came back with "nuh, uh, a townie would never"

I didn't say a townie would never, you see the thing with mafia is nearly any answer has a likelihood of being correct. The idea of someone holding off on a vote to try and get on the same page with someone else they think is a villager is not an impossible outcome.

It's just a matter of how much that seems true and if it supports what you did, and I've proven multiple times you weren't doing that, you were just buying time and not even doing what you're trying to die on a hill doing.

[MariaR]

Ah yes. Lets just cut off all of the case, to reframe it how you want.

You can quote everything below that as many times as you want, it won't change the fact you trying to say those are "points to convince" are not even close to what they are and you're just trying to pretend it to further your point.

[MariaR]

It... like, does not engage with the idea that she was voting outside of her own scum pool at all. It skips past, why would Maria vote here if she is town?

Why are you acting like it is purely impossible for reads to change and develop over time? Like, I vote for information and BCG was a big hot topic, I didn't mind voting there regardless of who was on the wagon. You know for a fact this isn't as damning as you're trying to make it out to be.

[MariaR]

Wait, was the BGC vote during the whole mech thing? I think thatw as during the peak of my other mafia game and we were talking about mech city so I voted and sheeped and tabbed out. If that's the one we're talking about given my tr dropped via pocket kekw.

[MariaR]

Yes. Reads change. In response to NEW information. Or even information that you are now reading in a different light.

But she was using the SAME information to call him unpartnered in one post, and then call him obviously partnered in the other.

That is not reads developing.

This is just false. Like that's not how it works. You can look at the same information and come to a dif point depending on how you read something. Like, this isn't even a false point it is just an outright incorrect statement.

[MariaR]

Acknowledging the faults of ones own argument isn't really a bad thing like you're trying to paint it as this false thought process that never existed. I stand by the fact Toog played horribly and did nothing the entire game and then the moment he posted more then a single sentence in a post and started playing he became an obvious villager (crazy how that works)

[Lukewarm]

I've proven multiple times you weren't doing that, you were just buying time and not even doing what you're trying to die on a hill doing.

Cape, if you actually care about this let me know. But it feels like Maria is just going to say how scummy it is not matter what, and engaging with her on it is pointless.

[MariaR]

Your biggest selling point to this Maria wolf world is that I used the same logic in two opposite worlds...that is it?

We look at your other points: Toog died: Hey look you used the same argument for Math.

Me not voting was scummy: Hey look you did the same thing but even worse because you had no reason not to vote.

You have meta that proves you wouldn't: Hey look so do I

Every single argument point you've tried to use against me you can also apply to yourself, which if I was a villager in your shoes would make me pause and go "hm maybe I'm wrong" and not auto vote at daystart.
Also doesn't explain your fake anger that outright is an entire shift in your personality we've seen this game that's glaringly fake. Along with the fake confidence.

It's just that obvious tbh.

[MariaR]

engaging with her on it is pointless.

I have no counterpoint because of how obvious it is there are holes in my argument so Cape come save me. FTFY. <3