Micro 1073: Purgatory - Game Over!

[Oclaxian Empire]

VOTE: ranger

fellow system must

p e r i s h

[Oclaxian Empire]

grim: yeah this could be a mafia-sided setup. i think its a setup where townhunting is prob strictly better tho since half the game we want to find and vote townies.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Eh, I felt like ranger making a reads list was the end of rvs?

Why is set up spec so towny? Like, it just seems factual

That’s just Ranger’s playstyle

[Oclaxian Empire]

I don’t necessarily think that means its the end of RVS?

[Oclaxian Empire]

@mod - v/la mon/tues next week. moving into new apt.

[Oclaxian Empire]

VOTE: Arko

VOTE: Aisa

@Asia, Bella, KK - where those votes at?

VOTE: AurorusVox

why these votes specifically?

[Oclaxian Empire]

grim:

VOTE: arko

i don't like ur posting.

e-2.

[Oclaxian Empire]

grim: i’m calling it’s e-2 so scum cant quickhammer. i dont like ur phrasing of “its technically NAI” like it implies that there’s somehow a chance its townie in this setup to setup spec.

realistically, the only setup spec that actually matters is if it’s better to townhunt or scumhunt the whole game bc trying to switch between both seems like a bit much.

also, ur reaction to my e-2 vote is interesting and i wanna think abt it.

[Oclaxian Empire]

grim: fwiw, i expect the rvs vote to change, and i dont realistically think ull die from my vote, but it did elicit a reaction from u and that’s the thing i wanted from u.

[Oclaxian Empire]

u clearly havent played w/ us then, bc that’s a major thing. precisely saying what u mean is important and we will nitpick smth bc its imprecise. thats nai.

[Oclaxian Empire]

setup spec doesnt matter in this setup either lol. its a setup that’s been ran multiple times. only thing we need to discuss is scumhunting or townhunting. thats it.

[Oclaxian Empire]

if it was a semi-open, sure. i could see the point of setup spec. not in an open that has been played multiple times.

[Oclaxian Empire]

nice omgus

[Oclaxian Empire]

that post is exactly what i mean. ur posts say nothing. they’re just empty. i’m abt to play csgo w/ bf, but i’ll talk later.

[Oclaxian Empire]

bc saying “technically” implies that setup spec is somehow townie/ai. its fucking not.

[Oclaxian Empire]

bc why would u fucking say “technically” and not ANYTHING ELSE

[Oclaxian Empire]

WHY USE THAT FUCKING WORD IF YOU DONT MEAN EXACTLY THAT

[Oclaxian Empire]

Do you have a meta read on Arko?

meta is a horrible way to read ppl

[Oclaxian Empire]

no i dont bc meta is a horrible way to read ppl. its not v. hard to mask those, or try to conceal them either, it just takes more effort.

[Oclaxian Empire]

i think setup spec in this setup alone is scummy. theres no reason to speculate abt if its townsided or scumsided. thats it. that’s the fucking point.

[Oclaxian Empire]

im done w/ u for now. peace

[Oclaxian Empire]

its scummy bc it looks like ur doing something when in reality it does nothing

[Oclaxian Empire]

setup spec looks good. its town motivated, but in this setup theres no reason to do it. its an open. its well documented how to play.

[Oclaxian Empire]

all opens unless never played rlly dont need setup spec. semi opens yes. full opens, not rlly.

[Oclaxian Empire]

heres the real question ranger - why bother with theater over something so utterly mundane and stupid

[Oclaxian Empire]

i’m v. tilted and should not be trusted with anything atm, but i’m going to anyways

[Oclaxian Empire]

heres the real question ranger - why bother with theater over something so utterly mundane and stupid

[Oclaxian Empire]

u clearly havent played w/ us then, bc that’s a major thing. precisely saying what u mean is important and we will nitpick smth bc its imprecise. thats nai.

I mean, it's not imprecise, you're just reading an implication into it.

Is this really a thing you do, for real?
Because in general I find scum to be waaaaay more precise with their language compared to town.

Yes it is, because we were an English major in college pre-COVID. That’s *what* English majors do: look at sentences and pick them apart.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Also, not that it really matters, but meta is IMO absolutely a good way to read people, because people don't play the same as both alignments, no matter how much they try to.

The main thing with our meta that I can tell you, is I ignore my partners and post less as scum. That’s why meta is dogshit to read from, because that’s something you can manipulate. People can easily manipulate their meta, by looking at how they play and try to change it. Does that mean they will, 100% of the time, do so successfully? No, but that means meta is unreliable as a method, because players can recognize their own meta and manipulate it.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Kori: We just got up, give us like 15-20 min to get out the door so we can talk.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I actually back ox over the “technically” point to be fair (might not agree with it but I can see why it pinged them)

Saying “technically” implies in reality it isn’t NAI

Hmm

Ox can you explain to me why you zeroed in on arko when multiple people were discussing setup spec at the time?

MS ate my first post, so I'm typing it again:

Nobody else's setup was as substantial or meaningful as Arko's. Us and Vader literally posted like a single post, that wasn't even that long in response to that. Vader's post was "I think this setup is townsided" - which, genuinely reads to me as someone just going "I wanna get into the game, and need a way to get *into* the game - I'll post if I think the setup is townsided or scumsided" - which... is NAI to me. It comes off more as someone who hasn't played this setup before going "I think this might be a townsided setup." Now, if Vader went "I think it's townsided for X, Y, and Z" that'd be different and we'd have zeroed in on that too. Our post is a single sentence saying that the setup might be scumsided and we should probably focus on finding townies. That's it. That's all there is to it.

Arko's posts, is just nothing. It's nothing of use, and people are TRing that. That's the problem. I looked at it again, because Grim didn't leave me specifically any notes about what they saw that made them think it's scummy, but there is one thing I noticed that I exceptionally

do not like

from Arko's postings, and I'm pretty sure it's what Grim saw and made it go "I don't like your posts" and it's the quoted below:

A saint going to heaven might as well not happen, it just makes the sinners closer to their 2nd wincon, and closer they are to that, more they can influence.

I don't like this because it makes it seem like sending townies to heaven is bad, when in reality it's good we do so. Scum have comms with their partners at all times. It doesn't matter what we do, scum are going to communicate all the time regardless. We should be sending townies to heaven when it comes up, and scum to hell when it comes up. There is no room for "well actually sending townies to heaven is bad" - NO. IT'S NOT. If we hit evens, the townies we sent to heaven vote on who they think is mafia. Like at worst, it's heaven 2, and it's a 4v3. That just means all the townies need to coordinate who they want to vote for. That's not *bad* because it forces scum into a position of they gotta help with this, or risk being spotted by that. Like, ugh. This post is so bad, words do not begin to describe it.

Trying to not send saints to heaven is actually anti-town because that's what scum wants. They want the sinners to go to heaven, not the saints. The entire point of the heaven day is to kill a townie. If you don't want to kill a townie, you're scum.

Other of Arko's posts that ping me:

Spoiler:

Actually, thought of it as more maf-sided
A saint going to hell is a benefit as it means one less martyr and one closer to their secondary win con
A sinner going to hell is a problem for them as you'd expect
A saint going to heaven might as well not happen, it just makes the sinners closer to their 2nd wincon, and closer they are to that, more they can influence.
A sinner going to heaven literally is their main objective

Basically, only 1 option makes the saints get closer to their win-con, while 2 make the sinner closer to their win-con. a Saint going to heaven has both benefits and disadvantages for both teams. A: More Time for Saints to take out Sinners in hell B: Sinners get more influence and closer to their 2nd win-con.

But from the history- the setup seems town sided.
And yeah, saints definitely start with an advantage, so if they are good enough they can win pretty easily.
White-Flag is a fucking bitch for scum, everyone knows that.
But without white-flag yeah scum might actually have the advantage.
It's a pretty hard to balance setup idea, in all honesty.

Setup spec posts that I think do nothing but fill space.

I'm going for the night, See ya.

Also- I'm betting now that one of the non-posters is a sinner. the other 2 are probably within this group of 7 though as you could probably obviously tell.

Weird thing to say, especially because right now - posting doesn't equate scum. Some people just are busy, and have lives. That's actually NAI if someone doesn't post within the first five or so pages. If it's been like a day or two since daystart and someone hasn't posted, sure, I could see it being NAI. But not at gamestart.

VOTE: Arko

VOTE: Aisa

@Asia, Bella, KK - where those votes at?

VOTE: AurorusVox

why these votes specifically?

I'm gonna ask this question too. I wasn't looking here till now. Aisa, Are you like- Going for an OMGUS vote on Aur? and BB, I mean I understand if you aren't agreeing with the townreads, it could easily come from a sinner (There are 3 of them!) but what's your specific thoughts on me?

Weird point out that there are three scum present.

Fair point, No real reason for me to be townread for that, It's technically pretty NAI.

Technically post again. I feel very comfortable in saying that it makes me feel like Arko wants this to be AI, but can't get away with claiming it's AI, so it's "technically" NAI. It doesn't sit right with us regardless.

[Oclaxian Empire]

(I guess that’s the challenge of a hydra account) so not sure why arko would be singled out for it.

Also technically not a hydra in the typical sense - its more akin to a meatspace hydra. We’re a system, meaning there’s multiple people in our head, who all have are their own unique identity.

I kinda instinctually know what Grim’s going at when posting, but not 100% certain, but we normally have notes for each other to read and play off of.

[Oclaxian Empire]

If you have access to the speakeasy, there's the plurality discussion thread. If you don't, we can look over it for some links, and find some other resources if anyone's genuinely curious about that. <3

[Oclaxian Empire]

a scum had to. i highly doubt that wagon was pure town.

[Oclaxian Empire]

grim: kori and i will have some reads soon, gonna re-read the game while eating lunch. kori does agree tho the wagon against us isn't fully town, and we'll prolly be focusing on those who expressed scumreads.

i'm personally thinking bella +town, and vander might be paired with arko currently, but i want some time to think abt that.

---

Oh wow, sorry I had no idea!! Sorry if saying hydra was offensive <3

I saw LLD’s post about a similar thing, really interesting! Didn’t realise that was what ‘system’ meant but very good to know for the future

none taken. lld has a similar thing to us, yeah. i think lld has did, and we have osdd. same family of disorders, just did is more severe than osdd, and impacts memory between switches differently.

we also call it meatspace hydra on here bc that's the easiest way for ppl to get a surface understanding of how it works. it's not a perfect explanation at all, but it's surface enough that ppl understand how we function effectively.

[Oclaxian Empire]

why do u not think arko?

[Oclaxian Empire]

(I guess that’s the challenge of a hydra account) so not sure why arko would be singled out for it.

Also technically not a hydra in the typical sense - its more akin to a meatspace hydra. We’re a system, meaning there’s multiple people in our head, who all have are their own unique identity.

I kinda instinctually know what Grim’s going at when posting, but not 100% certain, but we normally have notes for each other to read and play off of.

If you're one person why do you have a main account?

What. There’s one physical body that we share, but we’re not one person. There’s multiple people in this body. Korina is the main because that’s been the online persona before figuring out we were a system, and it remains our online persona because we’re not particularly out about being a system everywhere.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I think it means the creator of the system? Also yeah same computer-same meatspace location hydra is actually an interesting idea. Plot twist: it will probably be done by them and maybe 1 or 2 other attempts and that's it.

Ninja'd by Vanders - Have nothing to say on this. Mega quote wall, 1 sentence question. not town, not scum.
Ninja'd by Ali - It is yours! Enjoy it while it lasts.

What does this even mean

[Oclaxian Empire]

?????????

[Oclaxian Empire]

Let me finish CS and I can explain what being a system is

[Oclaxian Empire]

Or Ranger can if she comes around before we finish CS

[Oclaxian Empire]

I think it means the creator of the system? Also yeah same computer-same meatspace location hydra is actually an interesting idea.

Plot twist: it will probably be done by them and maybe 1 or 2 other attempts and that's it.

Ninja'd by Vanders - Have nothing to say on this. Mega quote wall, 1 sentence question. not town, not scum.
Ninja'd by Ali - It is yours! Enjoy it while it lasts.

Sorry, I mean bolded part

[Oclaxian Empire]

What won't be?

[Oclaxian Empire]

Sorry, your words actually are making zero sense to us atm

[Oclaxian Empire]

Sorry, your words actually are making zero sense to us atm

I mean I doubt there will be much systems besides you and a few others.

grim: it's estimated that about 1-3% of the population might be effected by did, which doesn't include osdd or other forms of dissociation which is another 4-7%. i'd have to find it, but that comes from the plurality discussion thread in the speakeasy. i can see abt finding studies that correlate w/ that tho later. for context too: abt 2% of the population has red hair.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Spoiler: small explanation about what plurality is - this is not game-relevant to anything except explaining our account for the sake of clarity

In the simplest, most layman way of explaining it to people on this site without getting into the full details about it, plurality is effectively an IRL hydra. All members of the system, (hydra), are located in the same place, in the same body, at the same time. It's the same exact way that two people in a hydra account on this site are different people and different identities, except instead of being two different

physical

bodies, they are the same

physical

body. And just like how two people in a hydra would have different opinions or views on matters, people in the system share exactly that.

Me, (Kori), and Grim are not the same person. We have different likes, tastes, and appearances in headspace. Headspace is a very complicated thing to explain in detail, and there are plenty of resources that can explain it better than we can. But the very tl;dr is headspace is a place all of us in the system can go to, and interact with when we're not actively dealing with the front. That's why we switch between Grim and I, because sometimes we switch around who is actually playing the game. Which, it's easy to tell the difference between Grim and I when we post, since this is all just me, (Kori.) Grim posts in all lowercase and rarely uses punctuation and shorthands a lot. If you look at the games from Vex Vience - that's Grim's account. That's the account it plays on by itself, and that's more or less its posting style.

This thread, the Plurality Discussion Thread in the speakeasy has a lot of great resources. If you have access to the Speakeasy, I recommend reading through it to get a more comprehensive understanding of what plurality is, rather than our quick and dirty explanation. If you don't have Speakeasy access, I'd look into getting it at some point during this game, or after if you're truly curious about plurality and want to know more. We advise against googling stuff about it, since there's a lot of misinformation out there. The links we provide at the end are all good, and asking (with consent!) a system about their experiences are also - all really good resources, along with the aforementioned thread. This Speakeasy thread from LLD is also good.

more than one, plurality resource, about plurality. (this link uses multiplicity, which is the old term for plurality), plurality hub

[Oclaxian Empire]

why do u not think arko?

Well for a start you're not scum with Arko so if you're scum, Arko's not.

But even if you're town, Arko's the towniest slot in the game to me rn. I vibe hard with Arko.

i dont like the implication of this post tbh.

[Oclaxian Empire]

"you and arko can't be scum, but even if you flip town, i don't think arko is scum still bc arko's the towniest slot in the game"

[Oclaxian Empire]

it just makes me feel like ranger has very deterministically decided what alignment we are, and what arko is, and not gonna re-evaluate.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Kori: I also had a dream we killed Arko and Arko was scum.

[Oclaxian Empire]

why do you like the "i had a dream arko was scum" post lol

[Oclaxian Empire]

once again tho - activity this early in the game is meaningless. that’s the entire point. it was what, two pages in the game?

about 15hrs had passed at that point and game started at abt noon cst, meaning that it’s super possible that someone could’ve seen it, been at work and hasn’t had a chance to respond. or been asleep, got up for work, seen it and couldn’t respond.

the fact a post like that came 15 fucking hours after game start and is a basis of a tr is abysmal. i think either ur a partner with arko, or scum trying to pocket arko.

[Oclaxian Empire]

It's simultaneously stating I'm town (163; "has determined", "won't reevaluate"; those aren't phrases used to describe a scum player, those are phrases describing a town player), while also taking the least-flattering reading of my 149

this does not say ur town. this says ur scum bc you know what my alignment is.

VOTE: ranger

idc, i want u dead.

[Oclaxian Empire]

the game is white flag. it's more than plausible for one member to just blatantly openwolf and do whatever the fuck they want, and i think that's what ur doing.

[Oclaxian Empire]

i’ll hammer arko, but i’d like ranger more tbh.

[Oclaxian Empire]

cool kill me and see i’m town. when i die, you get killed hell 2.

[Oclaxian Empire]

here actually, lemme help u with that goal:

VOTE: oclax

[Oclaxian Empire]

i’m not reading what u say anymore ranger bc ur posts make me irrationally angry for some godforsaken reason, so i’m gonna let kori interact w/ u and ignore u.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Ranger. Please look at how Vex Vience talks, and how Korina talks. Grim has been primarily posting, and I'm now posting.

We've had zero discussion around this game. I don't really care to reply to you currently because I'm about to be V/LA tomorrow.

VOTE: Arko

E-1, so my vote the next two days isn't useless.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I don't care about this game currently, because Grim had the primary stake in playing the game.

I think you're scum. I don't like any of your posting, and I especially don't like how you're trying to defend Arko.

I think you should always die before ELO, and I think we should always die before ELO.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I'm leaving now.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I don't care about this game currently, because Grim had the primary stake in playing the game.

I think you're scum. I don't like any of your posting, and I especially don't like how you're trying to defend Arko.

I think you should always die before ELO, and I think we should always die before ELO.

I don't want you to die before ELO, I think your posts this page have been very towny.

I agree with you about that post of Ranger's being scummy, but for a different reason.

I think if Ranger had a super strong townread on Arko where they townread basically every post Arko has made this game, I think they would open with that and not the associative read of you two not being together.

Kori: I think we as a slot should be killed before ELO, or at least before Judgement Day. The only exception is if you think I obv!town so hard that I can never be scum, and I remain in the game to further narrow down the scumpool, in which case - I could see that, and I would agree with the sentiment, but I still think as a slot, we should be sorted and sent off

before

that point.

Also, is your scumread on Ranger because of the bolded?

(I also have some time before I go V/LA today and tomorrow, so I'm gonna try to make use of that time. I got some notes from Grim on gamestate that I can post later today if anyone wants them.)

[Oclaxian Empire]

VOTE: Ranger

E-2 IIRC

[Oclaxian Empire]

Arko and I should be flipped before a judgement day tbh.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I still have time before I actually gotta be V/LA and I wanna make some use of it.

I think barring a Ranger flip today, we should go for Arko IMO. I wanna look over both wagons again but I think they’re both pretty townie or have one scum at most on them.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Actually I don’t think either wagon really has scum on it unless it’s just Bella, but I think Bella’s ok atm.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Grim’s notes boil down to effectively:

{Ranger, Arko} - scum. Ranger for defense of Arko/general play. Arko for not doing anything with their posts.
{Vander, Vox} - solidly town, and ok to play out the game.
{Aisu, Bella, Blood} - nulltown. Nothing substantial Grim remembers about the slot, but it thinks Aisu is more likely town than scum. Bella more likely townie, but not solidly so. Blood is a gut-town read currently and nothing else.
{Kawaii} - Nothing substantial, and could easily flip scum, but that’d require a reread/ISO to really determine.

[Oclaxian Empire]

{Oclax, Vander}
{Vox}
{Blood, Bella, Aisu} - nulls
{Arko}
{Ranger}

Tiered readlist

[Oclaxian Empire]

I’ll try to do a re-read while V/LA but no promises of such a thing will happen. Mostly want to sort Blood today.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Alpha (+Kori, +Drel): That’s why we’re townhunting not scumhunting. I think admittedly you can survive today Arko, but I think come Judgement you get flipped, or you should be flipped Hell 2 in all honesty.

I’m against a Blood flip today fwiw. I think Ranger or yourself are hands down better flips, but even if you don’t want to compromise on Ranger, I think there are better flips than Blood, because Blood flipping doesn’t really tell a whole lot?

You flipping, or Ranger flipping gives a lot more information. Hell, us flipping gives a lot more than Blood IMO, but we’re against us today, like you should be against your flip today.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Alpha: 8-10 pages is plenty of time to find something other than “vibes” to read someone, fwiw.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Alpha: Not to mention, this games deadlines are 7/2 IIRC. Four IRL days is a lot of time in this game, and I would not say that’s not enough time to come up with something better than vibes. 15 hrs in, vibes is fine. Not 96 hours.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Also- Ranger is out here making a fucking essay with only 10 pages in existence and no flip on why he thinks I'm not scum. I respect it, whatever the intentions.
Anyways, I'm gonna have to go in an hour, so plop down your questions rapid-fire style.
And yeah, your saying he's scum for high townreading me when until BB did anything you all considered me town, and now your putting me at the lowest scum down the pole and an instant kill either Hell 1 or 2?

Also 4 days with this amount of posts is pretty damn low, isn't it?

We never thought you were town Arko. We thought you were scum the second we started reading. Why wouldn’t we want you dead Hell 1 or Hell 2 as a result? We only want you dead latwr because we think Ranger is scummier than you, and more likely to flip scum.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I don't like Aisu for pairing with Ranger, but idk if that's townie or not. Will be able to post more later.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Drew repped in? Oh god. I can't read Drew and I'm ready to policy Drew at any time for that tbh.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Drew the last game I played with you I thought you were scum the whole game as a mason, and got talked out of scumreading you multiple times.

I literally cannot read you.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Actually the last time we really played together was 2019. That was four years ago. I barely remember shit from 2019.

Like sure, we've played a lot together in the past and I've modded a lot of games with you in it, but I really do not know how to read you. Watching you play a game I'm modding is different from playing with you and reading you.

[Oclaxian Empire]

There's more reasons why I don't think I can read you Drew, but I'm gonna not bring them up, because they're a little external influency, and stuff I genuinely don't wanna go into. I don't think I can read you, and that's about it.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Ok, the last game was Mini 2100 where I was a mason with BEF, and you were a mentor. I thought you were scum the whole game and BEF was trying to convince me that you could be town. I don't remember that game very well, and that's bc of out of game stuff.

The policy elim on you was a half-joke. Not a good joke, but also has some merit behind it. I don't think you should survive to ELO with me, if I get to there. But I also don't think I should survive to ELO anyways.

[Oclaxian Empire]

I still want Ranger dead fwiw

[Oclaxian Empire]

That's all I'm posting for the rest of tonight

[Oclaxian Empire]

Kowah wagon kinda bad tbh

[Oclaxian Empire]

But that’s mostly because I scumread Aisu and null read Bella

[Oclaxian Empire]

E-1 on ranger

[Oclaxian Empire]

Drew stop voting me pls and kill Ranger, kthx

[Oclaxian Empire]

I’m going to say you’re just town for the rest of the game until I need to re-eval for now, bc I can’t read you and you can’t read me.

[Oclaxian Empire]

Well if you wanna see first hand I can’t read Drew and vice versa - turf wars just ended.

[Oclaxian Empire]

viewtopic.php?t=90590

drew cant read us, and we cant read him. kinda nai to see us push him and want to policy him, since i’d do the same if i was drew. at least the policy might give some info for both of us on the other while we push

[Oclaxian Empire]

bruh that game literally ended less than an hour ago

[Oclaxian Empire]

drew was concurrently playing in both, like us.

[Oclaxian Empire]

i dont think using that game as evidence for a read in this game is a fallacy, especially since it literally just ended. unless u wanna claim drew is an actual god at meta manipulation and is actively manipulating as scum here to look town.

[Oclaxian Empire]

grim: intent to hammer in abt 3 hours before sleeping.

[Oclaxian Empire]

i’m willing to compromise and not wait a day for an inevitable hammer yeah.

[Oclaxian Empire]

i think kowah’s posting is fairly scummy and i still want ranger dead but i think kowah can go first

[Oclaxian Empire]

vander’s ok to go to heaven today tbh

VOTE: vander

[Oclaxian Empire]

ranger should just die d3 and that’s where our vote gets parked at that point

[Oclaxian Empire]

Prodging, gamestate has really stalled out.

[Oclaxian Empire]

What's your opinion on Vanders now though Drew

[Oclaxian Empire]

@mod - v/la 72

Noted.