Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I don't see a contradiction, or at the least, anything worth the wagon that's grown on CR.

MM, again, what sort of link would CR have been trying to avoid making with Ramus?

The link of being, IIRC, the 4th person on the Ramus bandwagon.

When I usually see talk about players making or avoiding links it's usually with other players, not positions on a wagon. What's significant about the 4th vote?

What I was saying there is in addition to the link of Ramus-the-player-as-a-whole, there is a more specifically link of the 4th position. I read CR to be afraid of voting CR's comfort.

[Battousai]

Nothing was happening.

What was the point of putting pressure on CR?

???? Because pressure can make people react.

[ClockworkRuse]

My bad, that is still a remnant of my initial random vote.

I would feel most comfortable about lynching ClockworkRuse.

Obviously I am biased due to his vote on me,

but I feel his case was genuinely without merit.

Not only do I still believe I was defending a null-tell by Ramus and thus was in the right (objections aside), but CR's vote on me still seems to amount to voting-by-proxy.

Unvote

Vote: ClockworkRuse

So you openly admit that this vote is an OMGUS?

What about my vote on you has ANY affect in how you vote? I get your second point about the "voting-by-proxy", which is a ridiculous point in itself as I was going after who I felt scummy, but how does that make you biased?

Would you be comfortable lynching CR right now?

I am not "comfortable" lynching him so to speak. I would prefer more discussion first. But I certainly think his play so far is worthy of a vote, even if it puts him at L-2.

And what do you mean by "voting-by-proxy"?

I can only reiterate what CarnCarn told me earlier- read the thread (I know you replaced, but as you say, the thread's only 6 pages long...).

I will quote what I said previously for your benefit:

In fact this if anything merely strengthens my point- I find it somewhat bizarre that you would not vote Ramus because there is "adequate pressure", yet you would vote for someone for defending him. This almost seems to amount to a "vote-by-proxy" and as MM said in 68, could well serve as a way of getting some of the benefits of an actual vote on Ramus without drawing attention to yourself.

For reference; Machiavellian-Mafia and Battousai talk about the same idea (that CR deliberately chose to vote for me for defending Ramus instead of Ramus himself) in posts 115, 118 and 124.

So, you aren't comfortable lynching me, you'd like more discussion, but you are going to put me two votes away from a lynch. Oh and I'd like to point out, and keep this in mind this quote is literally two posts before this, that Ort said this; "I would feel most comfortable about lynching ClockworkRuse." This contradiction seems kind of important.

Also note, that Ort has to use the cases brought against me by others and has little to nothing to add to my case. In other words, Ort has been sitting around and waiting for a reasonable case to build.

Not only has Ort practically admitted to voting me as an OMGUS jesture and then the case that others have been pushing, he's contradicting himself to give destructor an answer he thinks sounds town.


So, anyone can tell me how am I scummy for thinking that defending someone before they give a response is anti-town/scummy? Explain how that benefits scum.

I would like to know how comfortable everyone would be in lynching me today.

[ortolan]

Not only has Ort practically admitted to voting me as an OMGUS jesture and then the case that others have been pushing, he's contradicting himself to give destructor an answer he thinks sounds town.

So you openly admit that this vote is an OMGUS?

What about my vote on you has ANY affect in how you vote? I get your second point about the "voting-by-proxy", which is a ridiculous point in itself as I was going after who I felt scummy, but how does that make you biased?

Here you're just taking a ridiculous interpretation of what I said. Saying "obviously I am biased" was not "admitting I was OMGUSing" at all. In fact it was to pre-empt people accusing me of OMGUSing. It was saying "obviously this looks like an OMGUS, but here are my reasons". EVEN APART FROM THIS, there is nothing inherently scummy about an OMGUS vote ANYWAY, so this argument has absolutely no substance.

Secondly, you can hardly say my "voting-by-proxy" point is ridiculous- both Battousai and TheAdmiral said exactly the same thing- you voted for me to avoid visibly adding to the Ramus wagon.

So, you aren't comfortable lynching me, you'd like more discussion, but you are going to put me two votes away from a lynch. Oh and I'd like to point out, and keep this in mind this quote is literally two posts before this, that Ort said this; "I would feel most comfortable about lynching ClockworkRuse." This contradiction seems kind of important.

Wow, you're really clutching at straws now. Firstly, putting you "two votes away from a lynch" means absolutely nothing. Saying the "n-1" or "n-2" vote on a bandwagon is somehow dangerous or scummy is just not true, unless it's an obvious attempt at a quicklynch, which mine clearly wasn't. If anyone hammers without good reason they will come under heavy suspicion. So your first point has no merit.

On your second, point, Congratulations! You caught me using the term "comfortable" in two completely different contexts and now cite this as an inconsistency. I firstly said "I would feel most comfortable lynching ClockworkRuse"- meaning: you are my prime suspect. destructor then took this out of context and said "would you be comfortable lynching CR right now?" and I replied "I am not 'comfortable' lynching him so to speak". NOTE THE INVERTED COMMAS AND THE FACT THE FIRST USAGE WAS QUALIFIED WITH "most". As such you can interpret my position as being "he is whom I find most suspicious but I would like more discussion first".

Also note, that Ort has to use the cases brought against me by others and has little to nothing to add to my case. In other words, Ort has been sitting around and waiting for a reasonable case to build.

This is so ridiculously untrue it's not funny. Reread the thread- I have been attacking you since post 70 (Page 3!) In fact EVERY one of my posts since then has been in reference to you. You may be referring to the fact that the first time I *voted* for you was Post 136. I think if anything you should be thanking me for holding out for that long- I certainly see no reason to unvote you now.

I would like to know how comfortable everyone would be in lynching me today.

Even more comfortable than I was before, after your latest completely meritless attempt to attack me.

[ClockworkRuse]

Not only has Ort practically admitted to voting me as an OMGUS jesture and then the case that others have been pushing, he's contradicting himself to give destructor an answer he thinks sounds town.

So you openly admit that this vote is an OMGUS?

What about my vote on you has ANY affect in how you vote? I get your second point about the "voting-by-proxy", which is a ridiculous point in itself as I was going after who I felt scummy, but how does that make you biased?

Here you're just taking a ridiculous interpretation of what I said. Saying "obviously I am biased" was not "admitting I was OMGUSing" at all. In fact it was to pre-empt people accusing me of OMGUSing. It was saying "obviously this looks like an OMGUS, but here are my reasons". EVEN APART FROM THIS, there is nothing inherently scummy about an OMGUS vote ANYWAY, so this argument has absolutely no substance.

Secondly, you can hardly say my "voting-by-proxy" point is ridiculous- both Battousai and TheAdmiral said exactly the same thing- you voted for me to avoid visibly adding to the Ramus wagon.

So, you aren't comfortable lynching me, you'd like more discussion, but you are going to put me two votes away from a lynch. Oh and I'd like to point out, and keep this in mind this quote is literally two posts before this, that Ort said this; "I would feel most comfortable about lynching ClockworkRuse." This contradiction seems kind of important.

Wow, you're really clutching at straws now. Firstly, putting you "two votes away from a lynch" means absolutely nothing. Saying the "n-1" or "n-2" vote on a bandwagon is somehow dangerous or scummy is just not true, unless it's an obvious attempt at a quicklynch, which mine clearly wasn't. If anyone hammers without good reason they will come under heavy suspicion. So your first point has no merit.

On your second, point, Congratulations! You caught me using the term "comfortable" in two completely different contexts and now cite this as an inconsistency. I firstly said "I would feel most comfortable lynching ClockworkRuse"- meaning: you are my prime suspect. destructor then took this out of context and said "would you be comfortable lynching CR right now?" and I replied "I am not 'comfortable' lynching him so to speak". NOTE THE INVERTED COMMAS AND THE FACT THE FIRST USAGE WAS QUALIFIED WITH "most". As such you can interpret my position as being "he is whom I find most suspicious but I would like more discussion first".

Also note, that Ort has to use the cases brought against me by others and has little to nothing to add to my case. In other words, Ort has been sitting around and waiting for a reasonable case to build.

This is so ridiculously untrue it's not funny. Reread the thread- I have been attacking you since post 70 (Page 3!) In fact EVERY one of my posts since then has been in reference to you. You may be referring to the fact that the first time I *voted* for you was Post 136. I think if anything you should be thanking me for holding out for that long- I certainly see no reason to unvote you now.

I would like to know how comfortable everyone would be in lynching me today.

Even more comfortable than I was before, after your latest completely meritless attempt to attack me.

I'm interested in, if my attack is so unmerited, why you got so worked up over it.

[ClockworkRuse]

Oh, and I'd like to ask if when using Fong's Gambit, should you ask for more pressure? Doesn't that hinder with the gambit?

[petroleumjelly]

Day One: Vote Count #8

5 ClockworkRuse (urielzyx, CarnCarn, Machiavellian-Mafia, Battousai, ortolan)
3 Battousai (Caboose, Ramus, destructor)
1 ortolan (ClockworkRuse)
1 Ramus (Mizzy)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline hits on December 1 at 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 2 – MiteyMouse, ThAdmiral

[ortolan]

I'm interested in, if my attack is so unmerited, why you got so worked up over it.

Oh, sorry, next time you make bad arguments I'll just let them stand.

[Mizzy]

EVEN APART FROM THIS, there is nothing inherently scummy about an OMGUS vote ANYWAY, so this argument has absolutely no substance.

Actually, I don't agree fully with this sentiment; I feel that an OMGUS vote is scummy because it is an easy vote to make that doesn't take thought, doesn't utilize logic or a case, and in general, is anti-town. Anti-town != scum, but it does = scum

my

.

I also don't like that ort does, indeed, seem to have been waiting around for others to make his cases for him.

Also waiting for an answer to #155.

[ClockworkRuse]

I'm interested in, if my attack is so unmerited, why you got so worked up over it.

Oh, sorry, next time you make bad arguments I'll just let them stand.

That's not what I said. You have every right to defend yourself. But, if you look back up, you'll see that the diction and the caps lock bits show that you got very worked up over something you consider insignificant.

[ThAdmiral]

@ cr: are you accusing him of being overly defensive? (and by extension implying that this makes him scummy?)

@ mizzy: completely agree with your point about omgus. No, wait, mostly agree, because there are times when one will vote the person that is voting them and this will be reasonable play. I also think it is slightly overrated as a scum tell.

[CarnCarn]

I also don't like that ort does, indeed, seem to have been waiting around for others to make his cases for him.

What exactly is this based off of? You are implying that he is being opportunistic.
If this is true, I don't see any reason why he would defend Ramus self-voting (unless maybe if they are scum together, and even then that is not a given) instead of just piling on to that wagon.

[destructor]

ortolan, your case on CW seems to be based on the "I'm not scum but you think I am so that must mean you're scum" type of OMGUS. Why do you think a player making a weak case is a good enough reason to think they're scum?

Okay, so I really don't think CR is the play today. For the record, I read his "adequate pressure" post as him acknowledging support for the Ramus wagon but feeling like exploring a different discussion. Ramus, by that point, was posting more than single one liner posts, so I can understand why CR might have thought there was "adequate pressure" on him. In my own read of the game, I marked somewhere around that post (52) as a point when Ramus became slightly more useful.

On the other hand, Battousai adding more "pressure" to CR in 82 made no sense. CR was already posting and involved. Like I said before, pressure on Ramus made sense at the start of the game since he was being obtuse. CR's behaviour wasn't like this at all so what was the point of adding a vote on him besides jumping on the popular band-wagon?

I don't see a contradiction, or at the least, anything worth the wagon that's grown on CR.

MM, again, what sort of link would CR have been trying to avoid making with Ramus?

The link of being, IIRC, the 4th person on the Ramus bandwagon.

When I usually see talk about players making or avoiding links it's usually with other players, not positions on a wagon. What's significant about the 4th vote?

What I was saying there is in addition to the link of Ramus-the-player-as-a-whole, there is a more specifically link of the 4th position. I read CR to be afraid of voting CR's comfort.

Am I not communicating my question properly? (<- Honest question)
What would this link mean? CR-scum distancing from Ramus-scum? CR-scum distancing from Ramus-town-mislynch? Why is either of these more likely than the other or simply CR-town making a comment about a wagon he supports but doesn't join? And why bring the 4th vote up?


Caboose, Mouse and uriel are not doing much. I've seen Caboose posting around the site, so I don't know what he's avoiding this game for.

Mod:

Can Caboose, MiteyMouse and urielzyx be prodded?

[ortolan]

That's not what I said. You have every right to defend yourself. But, if you look back up, you'll see that the diction and the caps lock bits show that you got very worked up over something you consider insignificant.

When did I say I consider being attacked by you insignificant? I think you're scum and I'm not going to sit back and let you construct ground-less cases against me. I consider that I thoroughly refuted every single one of the points in your last post and in response it seems you've resorted to suggesting I got "worked up", as though I am "paniccing scum".

EVEN APART FROM THIS, there is nothing inherently scummy about an OMGUS vote ANYWAY, so this argument has absolutely no substance.

Actually, I don't agree fully with this sentiment; I feel that an OMGUS vote is scummy because it is an easy vote to make that doesn't take thought, doesn't utilize logic or a case, and in general, is anti-town. Anti-town != scum, but it does = scum

my

.

I also don't like that ort does, indeed, seem to have been waiting around for others to make his cases for him.

Also waiting for an answer to #155.

Strong FoS: Mizzy

for this post. To your first point: if you've done debating you'll know about the technique of "even if"- "even if so and so a point of yours is right, then...". Me saying "even apart from this" was an example of this. I firstly denied that my vote on ClockworkRuse amounted to an OMGUS. I then said even if it was, it's not a scumtell. You suggested that OMGUS may in fact be a scumtell, but did not address the fact that I intentionally denied my vote amounted to an OMGUS in the first place. This is not my reason for voting you however- it is your second claim, that I was "waiting around for others to make cases for me". This is just a parrot of the point ClockworkRuse already made and ignores the fact I already thoroughly refuted that this was the case (see my posts 70 and onwards). Either you haven't been reading and took ClockworkRuse's word for gospel or you had been reading and deliberately ignored the fact this point was blatantly untrue. Neither is forgivable at this point in the game.

...And I just went to reply to you, destructor and realised you've made exactly the same incorrect OMGUS accusation.

Why do you think a player making a weak case is a good enough reason to think they're scum?

If you read my posts you'd realise my case against him is far more substantial. Even take his last response to me, which amounts to trying to defer suspicion onto me because I "took too much effort in replying". I have felt his arguments against me since I've been actively voting for him have been even more horrible than those he made prior.

And on your comment on Battousai; while I certainly won't deny the possibility he's scum I don't like how you've been singling in upon him since your very first post of content. He openly conceded that his pressure vote was exactly what it was when he made it. I personally don't think scum would make such an attention-drawing move.

Also; destructor, I am suspicious of how aggressive your approach has been ever since you replaced in. I also dislike your justification for trying to divert suspicion from ClockworkRuse.

FoS: destructor

[Mizzy]

@ mizzy: completely agree with your point about omgus. No, wait, mostly agree, because there are times when one will vote the person that is voting them and this will be reasonable play. I also think it is slightly overrated as a scum tell.

True, and I wasn't speaking about endgame at all where cross-voting is going to happen and it's normal there.

What exactly is this based off of? You are implying that he is being opportunistic.
If this is true, I don't see any reason why he would defend Ramus self-voting (unless maybe if they are scum together, and even then that is not a given) instead of just piling on to that wagon.

No, I am implying that he is lazy. As you point out, he hasn't really been opportunistic.

Strong FoS: Mizzy for this post. To your first point: if you've done debating you'll know about the technique of "even if"- "even if so and so a point of yours is right, then...". Me saying "even apart from this" was an example of this. I firstly denied that my vote on ClockworkRuse amounted to an OMGUS. I then said even if it was, it's not a scumtell. You suggested that OMGUS may in fact be a scumtell, but did not address the fact that I intentionally denied my vote amounted to an OMGUS in the first place. This is not my reason for voting you however- it is your second claim, that I was "waiting around for others to make cases for me". This is just a parrot of the point ClockworkRuse already made and ignores the fact I already thoroughly refuted that this was the case (see my posts 70 and onwards). Either you haven't been reading and took ClockworkRuse's word for gospel or you had been reading and deliberately ignored the fact this point was blatantly untrue. Neither is forgivable at this point in the game.

Well, I haven't done debating so your explanation is lost on me. And even though you say your vote was not OMGUS, and it may not have been, we have no way to know that and cannot take your word for it, either. We have to look at how events play out and make our verdicts from that. Simply denying doing or saying something does not change history.

And no, I have been reading, and simply agreed with his point against you. Again, just because you feel like damning me for agreeing with something, doesn't make the thing I agreed with wrong or scummy. It's my opinion, one that happens to be shared. I felt like that before he said it, too.

And what do you mean, at this point in the game? You mean, day 1, barely away from the start of the game? Because it is, and if anything, day 1 is the most forgiving.

And where's the answer to 155?

[Battousai]

Destructer: Pressure votes can do more than just make someone post... Now CR may act differently with x amount of votes than x-1. I also feel there is a good chance CR is scum. I'm just getting the same feeling from him this game as the last game we were in (he was scum, obviously). I didn't really want to say that as a reason of why I feel he is scum since you can't defend yourself from it.

[petroleumjelly]

Caboose, MiteyMouse, Ramus, and urielzyx have been prodded.

[Machiavellian-Mafia]

I don't see a contradiction, or at the least, anything worth the wagon that's grown on CR.

MM, again, what sort of link would CR have been trying to avoid making with Ramus?

The link of being, IIRC, the 4th person on the Ramus bandwagon.

When I usually see talk about players making or avoiding links it's usually with other players, not positions on a wagon. What's significant about the 4th vote?

What I was saying there is in addition to the link of Ramus-the-player-as-a-whole, there is a more specifically link of the 4th position. I read CR to be afraid of voting CR's comfort.

Am I not communicating my question properly? (<- Honest question)
What would this link mean? CR-scum distancing from Ramus-scum? CR-scum distancing from Ramus-town-mislynch? Why is either of these more likely than the other or simply CR-town making a comment about a wagon he supports but doesn't join? And why bring the 4th vote up?

So that's what you were asking. I would interpret the link in order of likeliness from CR-scum-Ramus-town to CR-scum-Ramus-scum to CR-town-Ramus-either. I think the first 2 cases are more likely since scum would be more likely to be careful about not drawing too much attention (i.e.

not

jumping on steamrolling wagon) while town would be more likely to be aggressive (i.e. jumping on steamrolling wagon). The 4th vote = jumping on wagon to keep it steamrolling.

I'll admit I haven't had much time to post content recently except responding to destructor. I'll do a comprehensive rereading of the game in the next 3 days.

[MiteyMouse]

Hi all....just got here and reading. I will post soon. I'm so sorry for not being here as much as I'd like. I'm hoping on changing that soon.

[ClockworkRuse]

Destructer: Pressure votes can do more than just make someone post... Now CR may act differently with x amount of votes than x-1. I also feel there is a good chance CR is scum. I'm just getting the same feeling from him this game as the last game we were in (he was scum, obviously). I didn't really want to say that as a reason of why I feel he is scum since you can't defend yourself from it.

And what would that feeling be?

And I'd like to note, last game you got this feeling I was just attacking a claimed doctor and lurking. Am I doing either at the moment?

[ClockworkRuse]

That's not what I said. You have every right to defend yourself. But, if you look back up, you'll see that the diction and the caps lock bits show that you got very worked up over something you consider insignificant.

When did I say I consider being attacked by you insignificant? I think you're scum and I'm not going to sit back and let you construct ground-less cases against me. I consider that I thoroughly refuted every single one of the points in your last post and in response it seems you've resorted to suggesting I got "worked up", as though I am "paniccing scum".

EVEN APART FROM THIS, there is nothing inherently scummy about an OMGUS vote ANYWAY, so this argument has absolutely no substance.

Actually, I don't agree fully with this sentiment; I feel that an OMGUS vote is scummy because it is an easy vote to make that doesn't take thought, doesn't utilize logic or a case, and in general, is anti-town. Anti-town != scum, but it does = scum

my

.

I also don't like that ort does, indeed, seem to have been waiting around for others to make his cases for him.

Also waiting for an answer to #155.

Strong FoS: Mizzy

for this post. To your first point: if you've done debating you'll know about the technique of "even if"- "even if so and so a point of yours is right, then...". Me saying "even apart from this" was an example of this. I firstly denied that my vote on ClockworkRuse amounted to an OMGUS. I then said even if it was, it's not a scumtell. You suggested that OMGUS may in fact be a scumtell, but did not address the fact that I intentionally denied my vote amounted to an OMGUS in the first place. This is not my reason for voting you however- it is your second claim, that I was "waiting around for others to make cases for me". This is just a parrot of the point ClockworkRuse already made and ignores the fact I already thoroughly refuted that this was the case (see my posts 70 and onwards). Either you haven't been reading and took ClockworkRuse's word for gospel or you had been reading and deliberately ignored the fact this point was blatantly untrue. Neither is forgivable at this point in the game.

The way you worded the post, it didn't sound like you were denying it was an OMGUS. It read like you were attempting to acknowledge and dismiss it. So it isn't my fault you are being called on an OMGUS.

And since when did I start preaching? I've been applying pressure to you, surely, and I've been doing so since the beginning of the game. Tell me, should I not find the reactions you've produced so far scummy?

To answer TheAdmiral, I am beginning to suspect that Ort is being overly defensive. Just see the above.

Mizzy merely disagreed with Ort on one point and agreed with me on another didn't place any suspicion into as far as I could tell. Ort takes that post and makes it a strong FoS.

Not only does Ort make a very aggressive/defensive FoS, he also berates slightly.

And Ort, if I go back and look at your posts from 70 on, will I see you repeating whats already been said? It's not about amount of time, it's about content and I haven't seen much from you toward the wagon on me. I also find the timing of your vote out of place. If you were sure enough to follow the wagon on me since post 70, why wait until so much later to vote? Especially, if as you say, you've been posting meaningful content against me.

To reiterate what Mizzy said, in simple terms; mafia is a game of deceit. Even though you say that it wasn't an OMGUS, we can't be sure. Everyone lies, so it goes.

I'd also like to know what you thought of my post 159 regarding your diction and caps lock.

Seconding an answer to post 155;

Oh, and I'd like to ask if when using Fong's Gambit, should you ask for more pressure? Doesn't that hinder with the gambit?

[destructor]

ortolan's response to me (and Mizzy, I guess) is... more OMGUS?

Destructer: Pressure votes can do more than just make someone post... Now CR may act differently with x amount of votes than x-1. I also feel there is a good chance CR is scum. I'm just getting the same feeling from him this game as the last game we were in (he was scum, obviously). I didn't really want to say that as a reason of why I feel he is scum since you can't defend yourself from it.

So... how has your vote changed the dynamics of his play?
What have you learnt through your "pressure" vote on him?
"I'm just getting the same feeling" means gut? How is his play similar as a game where he was scum? Do you know that he hasn't played the same as town?
And I don't buy into this whole idea that you can call something a "pressure" vote and it will automatically mean anything. Your vote on CR is doing nothing but increasing the chances of him being lynched, not because it's outing him as scum, but because of cold and impartial game mechanics. You haven't made a case on CR and I see your reasoning - "pressure" - as an excuse to jump onto his wagon.

[ClockworkRuse]

Destructer: Pressure votes can do more than just make someone post... Now CR may act differently with x amount of votes than x-1. I also feel there is a good chance CR is scum. I'm just getting the same feeling from him this game as the last game we were in (he was scum, obviously). I didn't really want to say that as a reason of why I feel he is scum since you can't defend yourself from it.

I'd also like to point out that this is almost the exact same situation as the first Newbie game I played with you.

How does my play here add up to my play there?

[Mizzy]

I am beginning to think my vote should be elsewhere now.

Unvote

for the moment while I wait to see responses.

[Battousai]

Destructer: Pressure votes can do more than just make someone post... Now CR may act differently with x amount of votes than x-1. I also feel there is a good chance CR is scum. I'm just getting the same feeling from him this game as the last game we were in (he was scum, obviously). I didn't really want to say that as a reason of why I feel he is scum since you can't defend yourself from it.

And what would that feeling be?

What are you expecting here? I already said I felt you were scum.

And I'd like to note, last game you got this feeling I was just attacking a claimed doctor and lurking. Am I doing either at the moment?

You can't do the exact same thing every game....

ortolan's response to me (and Mizzy, I guess) is... more OMGUS?

Destructer: Pressure votes can do more than just make someone post... Now CR may act differently with x amount of votes than x-1. I also feel there is a good chance CR is scum. I'm just getting the same feeling from him this game as the last game we were in (he was scum, obviously). I didn't really want to say that as a reason of why I feel he is scum since you can't defend yourself from it.

So... how has your vote changed the dynamics of his play?

That's like asking what would have happened if you went to the mall instead of the movies. You can only speculate on how he would act.

What have you learnt through your "pressure" vote on him?

From what has been said, I don't think CR has done anything worth being lynched yet. But maybe being at L-2 he has kept up being active.

"I'm just getting the same feeling" means gut?

Yes, that's why I haven't really listed it as a reason for the vote, since you can't defend against gut.

How is his play similar as a game where he was scum? Do you know that he hasn't played the same as town?

I get the same feeling I had as the game I was in when he was scum.

And I don't buy into this whole idea that you can call something a "pressure" vote and it will automatically mean anything. Your vote on CR is doing nothing but increasing the chances of him being lynched, not because it's outing him as scum, but because of cold and impartial game mechanics. You haven't made a case on CR and I see your reasoning - "pressure" - as an excuse to jump onto his wagon.

Destructer: Pressure votes can do more than just make someone post... Now CR may act differently with x amount of votes than x-1. I also feel there is a good chance CR is scum. I'm just getting the same feeling from him this game as the last game we were in (he was scum, obviously). I didn't really want to say that as a reason of why I feel he is scum since you can't defend yourself from it.

I'd also like to point out that this is almost the exact same situation as the first Newbie game I played with you.

How does my play here add up to my play there?

Honestly, I haven't looked back at that game at all