Mini 708 - Cheat Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Dattebayo]

I completely disagree. The fact that you almost made that mistake should not enter your reasoning, since it is irrelevant. A newbie could have made that mistake, yes, and animorpher may be a newbie, but most of all, he is a player in this game. I would never ever let an experience player get away with this, so I am not letting animorpher get away with this.

Why is it irrelevant? The fact that I almost did the same thing is completely relevant; it reinforces the likeliness that Animorpher is telling the truth.
There's nothing wrong with treating ani as an experienced player, but you have to look evaluate him for his truth in explanation not just his seeminly scummy move. Thus, my read on him stands as townie.

Ah yes, that's indeed a reasoning, but guess what: it's a bad one. There's no way that I am going to say: 'aww you made a mistake, okay then, I can understand that, unfos.' He's just trying to get away with it playing the newbie card.

Whether you evaluate his reasoning as good or bad doesn't change the fact that you said there was no reasoning when there actually was.

Why would town say that we should get over it. Please elaborate

Take a second and imagine that Ani is town. Now, he made a mistake and is called out on it. He says its a mistake and thinks its no big deal.
Now imagine he's scum; he made a scum move and invents a rationale. He says its no big deal.
Either way, ani says the same thing. There is nothing to be inferred on his alignment this way.

Now you are not replying to the issue at hand. Firstly, why would he be thinking that I was trying to get him lynched? It's complete nonsense! I didn't even vote for him! I didn't express severe suspicion! Why would a towny be so paranoid? Secondly, why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy. Isn't that just pure OMGUS. As for that 'on little basis' thing you added, how can you be so sure he implied that.

Your not examining this on all levels; play empathetically. Put yourself in ani-scum's shoes and ani-town's shoes.

Aniscum, by doing this move would be panicing and trying to shove the pressure unto you. That reasoning is fair enough and I can see where your coming from here. But as scum he wouldn't have any good logic to support "why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy." whole argument he presented. Think about it; as scum he would know that you pushing him isn't scummy because you have in fact nailed scum. That argument wouldn't be coherent in a scum mindset and thus ani-scum would not have presented it as thus.

However, anitown could just be self-righteous and frustrated at the fact that your pushing him on a mistake that is genuine. Now take into fact that he is a newb and you can see why he is so paranoid about being lynched; he's never handled pressure before. Thus "why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy." suddenly can be logically answered. He would reasonably think that "hey, I'm town and this guy is pushing me on wrong points; since scum try to take down townies he's probably scum." Thus, he would only present this argument in a townie mindset.

And to finish this up: here's a little theory on OMGUS. Venomous OMGUS is scummy while self-righteous OMGUS tends to be newb town. Angry and venoumous behaviors identify more with the scum than does the town while self-righteousness identifies more with the town than does the scum.

1. Huh, what 'timeframe' did I attach to my post? You mean that I said that I am going to keep my vote on him for a while? That is true. With that I mean that I see no reason to put my vote off him. See it as me confirming my vote on him.
2. Did I ever imply that I wasn't going to do that? Anyway, what I meant is that I wasn't going to unvote him because he didn't cease to be scummy to me.
3. This is based on nothing. I never said that I had a specific plan or something among those lines. You are just making things up here.
4. I never said that I was willing to change it in a while. Was I supposed to say 'I am going to keep my vote on you for EVER!!!'? Because I really know better than to say that, even though I think he is scum right now, this is the first few pages of the game.

1. The "for a while" clause in fact a set timeframe. It says your going to keep your vote on him now but it also implies more...
2-4. The clause implies that your vote is more prone to change after some time rather than changing circumstances. Thus your own planned timeframe or escape route controls the vote rather than the scumminess associated with your target therefore your vote is insincere. And, you should have said my vote stands or my votes not moving. Or I'm keeping my vote on you.
I'm not saying you have this huge elaborate plan. I'm saying the you planned a specific timeframe and escape clause. Something a townie would not do.

What reason would sird have for pursuing animorph if he were scum? Someone said something about going for an easy lynch or something, but why would scum do that? If animorph flips town, he'd be in an awful position the next day. Towns are generally awful enough at lynching scum that any experienced scum should be content enough to just let the town do their own thing.

If ani flips town, then all sird would have to do is blame animorph's newbness or just animorph.

[GhostWriter]

My vote, at the start of the game, I PMed GW asking about the quiz. He read my PM, and completely ignored it.

I'd expect a townie to atleast give some kind of a response - Not necessarily give me his answer, but definatley give some kind of a response. This makes me very suspicious of him, hence the vote. Ignoring the PM is something i'd expect from scum.

That, sir, is hilarious. Tell me, exactly, how this works out to be a tell worthy of suspicion? Because I did not see it fit to even answer? Oh no, maybe I have answers, as well as other things in my PM, and do not trust myself to talk of any of the PM without letting it all spill out! Oh, dear me, you've caught me, whatever shall I do?

Translated into simple english:

I'm scum

Lynch please.

Oh please, my sarcasm aside, my post still stands. You've got less than a half-assed basis behind my "scumminess", and you've yet to actually show how anything I did is profoundly scummy. And then you dodged my asking of you to explain it, by purposely mistranslating my meaning and reinforcing a backless lynching of me. My ignoring of your PM asking me if I had any answers, implying the intention of attempting to share them, no doubt to gain more powers yourself (understandable and not a scumtell in the least[no sarcasm]), was an obvious "No" from me. Way to try blowing nothing into something.

But, no doubt, you'll claim there's still something there, so I ask you again: How does this work out to be a tell worthy of suspicion?

[Der Hammer]

Unvote

I suppose there could be two millers.

[sirdanilot]

I completely disagree. The fact that you almost made that mistake should not enter your reasoning, since it is irrelevant. A newbie could have made that mistake, yes, and animorpher may be a newbie, but most of all, he is a player in this game. I would never ever let an experience player get away with this, so I am not letting animorpher get away with this.

Why is it irrelevant? The fact that I almost did the same thing is completely relevant; it reinforces the likeliness that Animorpher is telling the truth.
There's nothing wrong with treating ani as an experienced player, but you have to look evaluate him for his truth in explanation not just his seeminly scummy move. Thus, my read on him stands as townie.

Then that is your opinion. Newbie animorpher could have made a mistake, experienced animorpher claiming would've been scummy. I pick the second because he doesn't deserve to be treated softly because he is a newbie. So, how does this makes me scummy, since that's what your post is ultimately about. Are townies not entitled to their opinion?

Ah yes, that's indeed a reasoning, but guess what: it's a bad one. There's no way that I am going to say: 'aww you made a mistake, okay then, I can understand that, unfos.' He's just trying to get away with it playing the newbie card.

Whether you evaluate his reasoning as good or bad doesn't change the fact that you said there was no reasoning when there actually was.

Okay sure, I may have misphrased that, I'll update my list. But could you now reply to the issue at hand? Do you agree it is bad or not, and why?

Why would town say that we should get over it. Please elaborate

Take a second and imagine that Ani is town. Now, he made a mistake and is called out on it. He says its a mistake and thinks its no big deal.
Now imagine he's scum; he made a scum move and invents a rationale. He says its no big deal.
Either way, ani says the same thing. There is nothing to be inferred on his alignment this way.

Hmm... that's an interesting opinion. Why would he think it's no big deal to claim, though? I think that something like claiming is in fact a big deal.

Now you are not replying to the issue at hand. Firstly, why would he be thinking that I was trying to get him lynched? It's complete nonsense! I didn't even vote for him! I didn't express severe suspicion! Why would a towny be so paranoid? Secondly, why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy. Isn't that just pure OMGUS. As for that 'on little basis' thing you added, how can you be so sure he implied that.

Your not examining this on all levels; play empathetically. Put yourself in ani-scum's shoes and ani-town's shoes.

Isn't that what I am doing.

Aniscum, by doing this move would be panicing and trying to shove the pressure unto you. That reasoning is fair enough and I can see where your coming from here. But as scum he wouldn't have any good logic to support "why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy." whole argument he presented. Think about it; as scum he would know that you pushing him isn't scummy because you have in fact nailed scum. That argument wouldn't be coherent in a scum mindset and thus ani-scum would not have presented it as thus.

You forget that ani-scum could think, 'hmm he has nailed scum, let's put up my big newbie towny face', and work from the assumption that he is town, and start suspecting me for it. I certainly think he is capable of doing such a thing.

However, anitown could just be self-righteous and frustrated at the fact that your pushing him on a mistake that is genuine. Now take into fact that he is a newb and you can see why he is so paranoid about being lynched; he's never handled pressure before. Thus "why would me be trying to get him lynched be scummy." suddenly can be logically answered. He would reasonably think that "hey, I'm town and this guy is pushing me on wrong points; since scum try to take down townies he's probably scum." Thus, he would only present this argument in a townie mindset.

And to finish this up: here's a little theory on OMGUS. Venomous OMGUS is scummy while self-righteous OMGUS tends to be newb town. Angry and venoumous behaviors identify more with the scum than does the town while self-righteousness identifies more with the town than does the scum.

But then, you are again treating him differently because he is a newbie and I am inherently against such an approach, especially in the beginning of the game.

1. Huh, what 'timeframe' did I attach to my post? You mean that I said that I am going to keep my vote on him for a while? That is true. With that I mean that I see no reason to put my vote off him. See it as me confirming my vote on him.
2. Did I ever imply that I wasn't going to do that? Anyway, what I meant is that I wasn't going to unvote him because he didn't cease to be scummy to me.
3. This is based on nothing. I never said that I had a specific plan or something among those lines. You are just making things up here.
4. I never said that I was willing to change it in a while. Was I supposed to say 'I am going to keep my vote on you for EVER!!!'? Because I really know better than to say that, even though I think he is scum right now, this is the first few pages of the game.

1. The "for a while" clause in fact a set timeframe. It says your going to keep your vote on him now but it also implies more...
2-4. The clause implies that your vote is more prone to change after some time rather than changing circumstances. Thus your own planned timeframe or escape route controls the vote rather than the scumminess associated with your target therefore your vote is insincere. And, you should have said my vote stands or my votes not moving. Or I'm keeping my vote on you.
I'm not saying you have this huge elaborate plan. I'm saying the you planned a specific timeframe and escape clause. Something a townie would not do.

I didn't mean the 'while' as such, as a specific time frame. I meant 'while' like something like, until something else comes up. Why do you feel the need to think so deeply about tiny semantics?
I'll use those sentences then, if you prefer, but I really don't see how they make such a big difference. Scum could also say 'my vote stands'. It's a different way of saying the same.

What reason would sird have for pursuing animorph if he were scum? Someone said something about going for an easy lynch or something, but why would scum do that? If animorph flips town, he'd be in an awful position the next day. Towns are generally awful enough at lynching scum that any experienced scum should be content enough to just let the town do their own thing.

If ani flips town, then all sird would have to do is blame animorph's newbness or just animorph.

So I (hypothetical sirdan-scum) am first going to say that newbies shouldn't be treated as such, and then I am going to blame his newbness? Could you elaborate on how that is logical?

Dattebayo, your case seems a bit misguided and you were looking too deeply into semantics. I disagree with your approach on newbies, and I fail to see how that is scummy. Actually, it would be a discussion worthy of a thread on MD.

[animorpherv1]

However, anitown could just be self-righteous and frustrated at the fact that your pushing him on a mistake that is genuine.

Exactly. I think sirdanilot has gone overbaord with this one fact. I have no hard feelings on the fact he is treating me like an experienced player. I can up my game this way. But the fact that he is saying I am scum becasue of ONE thing seems scummy to me. At leas find a reasonable argument for me. This is comeplete bs.

You forget that ani-scum could think, 'hmm he has nailed scum, let's put up my big newbie towny face'

All I can say to this is a big:

WTF?

[Dattebayo]

Then that is your opinion. Newbie animorpher could have made a mistake, experienced animorpher claiming would've been scummy. I pick the second because he doesn't deserve to be treated softly because he is a newbie. So, how does this makes me scummy, since that's what your post is ultimately about. Are townies not entitled to their opinion?

After reading this response, I feel the only true difference between our arguments here is how we are treating ani as a player. I'm willing to take his newbness into account while your not. They both have valid supporting arguments so I'm not going to take issue with this. In fact, this specific argument stemmed from my read on ani not an attack on you. I'm not calling you scummy for this; I'm explaining my town read on ani.

But could you now reply to the issue at hand? Do you agree it is bad or not, and why?

I've already explained why I believe that it was a genuine mistake.

Hmm... that's an interesting opinion. Why would he think it's no big deal to claim, though? I think that something like claiming is in fact a big deal.

Simply, he saw two players before him claim out of what seemed nothing and thought it was just not a big deal to claim.

You forget that ani-scum could think, 'hmm he has nailed scum, let's put up my big newbie towny face', and work from the assumption that he is town, and start suspecting me for it. I certainly think he is capable of doing such a thing.
But then, you are again treating him differently because he is a newbie and I am inherently against such an approach, especially in the beginning of the game.

I suppose our argument here stems again from our different treatments of ani as a player. Fair enough, I'll drop the point here.

I didn't mean the 'while' as such, as a specific time frame. I meant 'while' like something like, until something else comes up. Why do you feel the need to think so deeply about tiny semantics?

Semantics have been through my own personal experiences and empiracal evidence been quite accurate.
But, I forgot to take into account that "while" in that context could also be referring to changing circumstances; I took it only for its face-value definition- the exact thing I was trying to avoid when I went into this branch of arguing.
With that,

Unvote: Sird

. I'm still slightly suspicious because of your first point against ani when you first listed it, but thats not voteworthy.

[iLord]

The Shout (Day 1)

A shout could be heard in the hallway - the class straightens up. Mr. Shoals stirs. A single pencil is dropped. A second pencil joins it. And then another. And another. And soon a cascade of dropping pencils followed.

Vote Count the Seventh:

Natirasha (0):
Electra (0):
GhostWriter (2): malthusis, xtoxm
Animorpherv1 (3): Electra, sirdanilot, Natirasha,
Malthusis (1): Mana_Ku
Sirdanilot (1): animorpherv1

malthusis and VisMaior have been prodded. Mana_Ku and pacman281292 are going to be replaced - they have not picked up their prods and if they want to stay in this game, they will have contact me before I find replacements for them.

[Axelrod]

Hi there! I'm replacing somebody! I don't actually know who, but I assume it's one of those guys who were going to be replaced.

What's happening!

[iLord]

A Change of Cast (Day 1)

All was quiet. And then the door was burst open - Mr. Shoal woke up with a start and the students fell quiet. A group of men in white lab coats raced in. One was carrying a clear dangerous-looking tranquilzer gun. With a quick, smooth motion, he aimed and fired. A student in the back slumped down. The man rushed in, grabbed the student, and pulled her outside. The others started spraying the room with a chemical that smelled distinctly of horseradish. The intercom turned on:

"Excuse this interruption again, but a certain student needs to be pulled out due to suspicions that she may carry a very dangerous disease. But we've talked with the parents, and it's all okay - she's is going to have a representative take this very important test! He should be coming along very soon now."

And not a second later, another kid walked in and took the seat of the student who had been forceably pulled out only moments before. He looked at the test, and his face paled. Then he looked at the snoring Mr. Shoals and smiled.

Axelrod is replacing Mana_Ku

-------------------------------------------------------------

Vote Count the Eighth:

Natirasha (0):
Electra (0):
GhostWriter (2): malthusis, xtoxm
Animorpherv1 (3): Electra, sirdanilot, Natirasha,
Malthusis (1): Axelrod
Sirdanilot (1): animorpherv1

[GhostWriter]

Hi there! I'm replacing somebody! I don't actually know who, but I assume it's one of those guys who were going to be replaced.

What's happening!

Konnichi wa, and welcome aboard.

[Natirasha]

Hi there! I'm replacing somebody! I don't actually know who, but I assume it's one of those guys who were going to be replaced.

What's happening!

Hm...this is interesting. Between you and SirD, I think that this will be an interesting game for me.

[Dattebayo]

Mod: I think there's a vote miscount. You have 2 votes on animorpher when you have 3 players listed voting him.

Fixed

[sirdanilot]

Hi there! I'm replacing somebody! I don't actually know who, but I assume it's one of those guys who were going to be replaced.

What's happening!

Hahahahahahahahahaha
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha

Brilliant. Can I sig that?

(obviously this is not your fault the mod should have told you but still lol)

--------------------------------------
Okay, Dattebayo, I am glad that you see that something like that is purely a different approach and that both approaches are equally defendable. If you need a response on any of the issues, I'll be glad to give it, but for now I'll only reply to this point.

Simply, he saw two players before him claim out of what seemed nothing and thought it was just not a big deal to claim.

But then, we once again enter the same argument about whether to approach him like a newbie or not. I would never believe an experienced player would make such a mistake, so yes, this is just more of the same I am starting to believe that my entire case on animorpher stands or falls with my approach of newbies now, but that does not make it any less valid in my opinion.

And as for ani's last post, it perfectly fits with the big newbie town face he is trying to create here. Still no really valid defense against my case yet.

[VisMaior]

Hi! Sorry for the delay I had unexoected limited acces.

I find the claim a genuine mistake. Sirandilot seems very trigger-happy.

[animorpherv1]

pacman has a few V/LA times, untill about Nov. 29th, the December 1st to December 9th.

Actually, you're right. However that's missing for quite a period of time (From the 22rd to the 9th is 18 days of VA, which is way too long).

[Axelrod]

I've just skimmed. First impression is that the "two miller" thing is some bad juju. I'm pretty sure I've never seen that before and I think it highly likely at least one of them is full of it. I'd lean towards the Hammer because of the way he claimed it (with a ?) in his first post and then his most recent where he backed off saying he thinks there could be 2 millers.

I don't have any other thoughts right now.

[Electra]

limited access/vacation until after the weekend, sorry

[VisMaior]

Im inclined to think its rather a scum gambit for claiming miller, then failing because there is an actual miller.

vote natirasha

[animorpherv1]

The votecount is still messed:

Animorpherv1 (2): Electra, sirdanilot, Natirasha

Electra, why are you still vitong me?

Fixed.

[Natirasha]

I, for one, don't see why we can't have millers in this setup.

Think about it, with the way that we apparently gain skills from answering correctly on the test, I find it possible that one of the powers is simply to become not-a-miller.

@Hammer: What is the flavor for you being a miller?

[iLord]

The Pencil Heard 'Round the Room (Day 1)

An aim, a thrust, a look, a shout! The class turned around to see a pencil bounce to the ground and a student gripping his leg. Five of the students rushed to the students aid - six more laughed at the student's misfortune with the culprit, the newly arrived, in the middle of the throng.

Another aim, another thrust, six looks, and six shouts! The attacker's laugh was cut off. And the war had begun!

Vote Count the Ninth:

Natirasha (1): VisMaior
Electra (0):
GhostWriter (2): malthusis, xtoxm
Animorpherv1 (3): Electra, sirdanilot, Natirasha,
Malthusis (1): Axelrod
Sirdanilot (1): animorpherv1

Due to Thanksgiving, I will not be prodding until Monday.

[Dattebayo]

Two millers claiming, someone randomly claiming...

vote Natirasha

What do you think about amorpher's claim? And the counter claim?

Why did you vote Natirasha out of the two claimed millers? Why not Der Hammer?

Also, Der Hammer why did you claim miller with a question mark at the end of your claim?

[pacman281292]

oops, sorry all...
If it's needed, you can replace me.
About sirdan... I have a meta on him, and he is always overeager. However, this is slightly excessive...

[sirdanilot]

Two millers claiming, someone randomly claiming...

vote Natirasha

What do you think about amorpher's claim? And the counter claim?

(1)Why did you vote Natirasha out of the two claimed millers? Why not Der Hammer?

(2)Also, Der Hammer why did you claim miller with a question mark at the end of your claim?

1. Now, that's a very good question, Dattebayo. The reason for that is that at the time, I found it a bit unlikely for scum to fake counter claim so early in the game. But right now, I am not completely sure about that. That is also one of the reasons I stopped voting Natirasha (but ani's scummyness was of course a much bigger reason).

Not completely sure yet what to think of the situation.

2. Now, I don't mean to answer for DH but this issue was resolved long ago. I think he was surprised that there were two millers, he wasn't unsure that he was a miller himself, but I'll let DH explain that himself.

Also, pacman, I am usually more 'eager' in the beginning of the game than towards the end, and in the game we played you didn't see me in the beginning since I replaced in later on. But meta isn't really that important anyway.

[Axelrod]

Im inclined to think its rather a scum gambit for claiming miller, then failing because there is an actual miller.

vote natirasha

This is entirely possible. I haven't made up my mind.

Der Hammer is also lurking like a fiend, however, in addition to his initial (?) about being a Miller, and his recent declaration that he thinks there could be two Millers. He's literally said

nothing

else.

Of course, Nat. just said the same thing abo9ut two Millers. So, question to both of you: what is it about this set-up that leads you to the conclusion that there could be multiple millers?

I think out of everyone I am vibing with sirdanilot's

style

more than anyone else's so far. Which is not to say I agree with his current vote. But I think he's sounding townie, and he's working awfully hard for a scum.