TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[mith]

I feel like if mith was genuine about scumreading LLD, when LLD backtracked from "6s specifically are scummy" to "limming low in the draft order is better" it should have caused him to second guess the bit I italicised above.

When I wrote the italicized, I hadn't gotten to that exchange. Didn't go back to edit it. ~shrug~ I would just rephrase it: I don't have reason to think LLD doesn't believe that scum are likely to be in the bigger groups and that that is important. I think she's

wrong

about that (the importance of "scum are likely to be in bigger groups" in the absence of "scum are

more

likely to be in bigger groups than to be in an arbitrary group of the same size"), but being wrong is not a particular strong scumtell in my experience.

What

is

scummy to me is how she pushed it and how the argument about it progressed. But that is still mostly vibe at this point, because I'm old and slow and still don't feel at all caught up in this game.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "mech" (is this what the cool kids are saying these days?). I'm also curious why you didn't actually push on LLD after the 311/313 exchange. As you say, 313 was really bad... so why no follow-up on that until now?

------

I was able to skim everything since my last post earlier this morning, and I wanted to make the following clear: the lack of particularly strong reads at this point has far more to do with the pace of the game and the amount of time I have to spend on it (little) than with my alignment. I'll also have to rely on my team for anything meta (kuribo finally gave the game a quick read this morning and thinks LLD is likely town, FWIW); I've never played with any of you and have no intention of trying to figure out your meta by reading a bunch of old games. I barely have time to read this one!

[implosion]

The answer to the riddle is "The frog's name is actually irrelevant. The important thing to note is that vinegar dissolves the shell of an egg, leaving only the membrane intact. The salt then diffused through the membrane and replaced the egg white. This is a fun science experiment that you can try at home!"

Vote Count 1.5

Marashu (4): Lady Lambdadelta, Gimli, Staeg, Menalque
Lady Lambdadelta (2): Ythan, mith
Datisi (2): Alisae, Bellaphant
Rad (1): Marashu
mith (1): imaginality
Alisae (1): Datisi

Not Voting (2): Cephrir, Rad

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to eliminate.

Deadline is April 27 at 10:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2023-04-28 01:00:00).

[Datisi]

koba wants to know why you think they would care that much about the mechanics pre-game @dats

i think they'd care because i remember seeing them say at some point somewhere (i think it was on discord) before team mafia how they're excited for TM and are gonna strategize right away with bingle. and arguably this is the game where mech/meta strategizing is needed the most early, so to hear they just said nothing about it is like. huh???

@dats koba wants you to know that reading Ali is more of an energy thing related to if they look like they're solving or if they're manipulating

i mean ok but to me they looked like they were manipulating so lole

i did finally get some sleep so i'll go through a few games of theirs at some point in the next few hours

mith town

y

I might've been in a game or two with others if they were in alts or hydras

i was gonna yell at you for not remembering me, but then i realized i was on an alt in both peta's the thing and prism's guardians of the fortress, so >_>

here is the top bit of Koba's reads presented raw:

ythan
mith
Ali
rad
Bella
stage
dats

does the "top bit" mean townreads? i vaguely remember reading that koba thinks ali might be scum, and that's the vibe i got from y'all convo, but if ali is scum there then i don't understand the list

wait i missed the later part of 650 oops, still same question tho

[Datisi]

i think menalque is probably town? ausuka was telling me earlier that he's town, tho i wanted to wait a bit and see. i don't think i've seen scum-mena have this much solving energy in quite a while. especially contrasted with his scumgame in coalition (hey, mena, did you know i was in coalition?)

the one doubt i do have is that this is team mafia, and maybe he'd step it up if he rolled scum here, but. eh. i'll worry about that a bit later if needed.

also i have a townlean on imaginality for a somewhat silly reason.

[Datisi]

okay, i've gone through 3 games with alisae, 1 them town 2 them scum, with me reading them mostly correctly in all of them, and

UNVOTE:

yeah i'm not so sure alisae is scum anymore. i don't know. the town game wasn't really helpful because, again, i townread them there off a very specific instance (them hammering a strongman on d1 without forcing a cc, when i know scum-alisae would make their partner force a cc) and nothing like that has happened here, so that's not much help

but in the two scumgames, the way i read alisae was actually... kind of closer to "wait a bit to see if i make sense as scum" than i fist realized >_> like in the micro, the way they made arguments just gave an air of "look i am solving i am taking all of you very seriously" that immediately pinged me, and here that's not really present. and with warrior cats, i did start off townreading them, but as the game went on i realized they were on the wrong side of history a bit too much for it to be accidental. and then alisae went forward to ignore me when i asked them something and declare me scum for ??? reasons and basically shut off everything i'm saying.

and i remember them asking basically the exact same "do you have reads" question that they did here in the scumtisi-game-that-shall-not-be-named where they were town. so like uh.

i feel kinda stupid writing this because "wait to see what they push" is kinda much closer to how i used to read them, so it makes sense that they thought so, and i deleted warrior cats mafia from my memory before now

for reference, games are:
viewtopic.php?t=87486
viewtopic.php?t=90022
viewtopic.php?t=90508

[Menalque]

jingle also thinks Ali town from what he's managed to read, but koba is still thinking Ali scum, Ali you asked why, the reason is that they think your play is kinda aimless (tbf this is from yesterday evening idk if they read anything overnight while I was asleep), oh wait, I'm still reading the discord and now they think Ali looking a bit better but still worth watching bc of how e's playing around lld in any worlds where she's town

@dats koba wants you to know that reading Ali is more of an energy thing related to if they look like they're solving or if they're manipulating

these things feel fundamentally at odds. i agree with the second post and i don't understand how it leads to the conclusion that aimless = scum

I think this is already covered in my convo with ali but basically aimless was me badly paraphrasing what koba actually said

[Menalque]

koba wants to know why you think they would care that much about the mechanics pre-game @dats

i think they'd care because i remember seeing them say at some point somewhere (i think it was on discord) before team mafia how they're excited for TM and are gonna strategize right away with bingle. and arguably this is the game where mech/meta strategizing is needed the most early, so to hear they just said nothing about it is like. huh???

@dats koba wants you to know that reading Ali is more of an energy thing related to if they look like they're solving or if they're manipulating

i mean ok but to me they looked like they were manipulating so lole

i did finally get some sleep so i'll go through a few games of theirs at some point in the next few hours

mith town

y

I might've been in a game or two with others if they were in alts or hydras

i was gonna yell at you for not remembering me, but then i realized i was on an alt in both peta's the thing and prism's guardians of the fortress, so >_>

here is the top bit of Koba's reads presented raw:

ythan
mith
Ali
rad
Bella
stage
dats

does the "top bit" mean townreads? i vaguely remember reading that koba thinks ali might be scum, and that's the vibe i got from y'all convo, but if ali is scum there then i don't understand the list

wait i missed the later part of 650 oops, still same question tho

Uh, idk then? I guess they got busy or just didn’t but again draft order is kind of a crapshoot especially with the new median twist and it didn’t happen. We discussed what role to try and submit for tho, that’s where the strategising took place

Meh I think ali town from talking to er earlier today, got the solve-y vibes and didn’t feel like e was trying to guide me to any particular conclusion

Mith town bc he fucking nailed it on the numbers mech stuff and I like his lld take even if, as previously mentioned, I’m reserving judgement on her for now

top bit does mean townreads, yes, koba changed opinion on ali after going back to read er in context and now they just think e was being awkward and cringe but actually pro-town. I can get them to cite posts if needed

[Menalque]

Also PB is currently the person with some extra time on our team so if anyone wants his opinion on something hit me up and I’ll pass it along

[Datisi]

top bit does mean townreads, yes, koba changed opinion on ali after going back to read er in context and now they just think e was being awkward and cringe but actually pro-town. I can get them to cite posts if needed

ah okay

tbh i don't care that much about how koba is reading alisae lole, i was just looking to see if that's koba actually giving a read on me (i was willing to throw hands if they weren't)

[Menalque]

How do you feel about ali catching us for colluding on our number pick?

[Menalque]

Oh also I did not know you were in that coalition game but it’s now obvious to me looking back

That was horrendous tho, town just coalesced while I wasn’t there and I couldn’t see any way to break it up

[mith]

I'm suspecting marashu the hardest ever since he voted you, cause I thought datisi's case in that page was pretty unconvincing, or at least I felt like datisi was noticing things that aren't indicative of alignment and calling them scummy. marashu didn't explain why he voted there but since dats' case was on the same page it makes sense for it to be sheeping him which I find suspicious cause IDT many townies would read through those points and agree with them. I don't like that marashu didn't return to the game yet while promising to do so, so I'm fine with where my vote is.

Gimli, why did you originally vote for Marashu?

[Datisi]

How do you feel about ali catching us for colluding on our number pick?

oh the 2019 menalque towntell

anyway i think we did a good enough job that nobody else is taking alisae's thoughts seriously; tbh picking multitasking despite colliding was a great idea, they'll never see it coming

*checks to see if implo has any rules about claiming scum in thread*

[Menalque]

Nice nice, that was a masterstroke of urs tbh, I didn’t even consider the multitasking gambit angle

And then to accurately guess that nobody above us would go for the vig or the doc, just a *chef’s kiss* start to the game

[Datisi]

but whatever you do, do not let them know our plan of attracting a tracker onto us, then both shooting and protecting the same person, then claiming that on d2; i think it's a really smart play

[Gimli]

I'm suspecting marashu the hardest ever since he voted you, cause I thought datisi's case in that page was pretty unconvincing, or at least I felt like datisi was noticing things that aren't indicative of alignment and calling them scummy. marashu didn't explain why he voted there but since dats' case was on the same page it makes sense for it to be sheeping him which I find suspicious cause IDT many townies would read through those points and agree with them. I don't like that marashu didn't return to the game yet while promising to do so, so I'm fine with where my vote is.

Gimli, why did you originally vote for Marashu?

he quoted the same post datisi used to SR Rad (thats 127 and 128, asking lld to calm down and move on) that's NAI or even a little towny from rad imo so I don't agree with how datisi read the situation. I don't scumread datisi for it cause maybe he believes in it, but for marashu to drop in the game and sheep what imo is not a good case, I didn't feel good about that. it feels like marashu just picked the first reasonable looking push in front of him and pushed that, so I voted him.

[Datisi]

ok i also wanna be a cool kid so here's readlist

town - mena, ythan, staeg
slightly less town but also probably? town - alisae, gimli, cephrir, maybe mith?
i don't know and would like to see more - marashu, imaginality
idk and don't ask - lld
scum?? - rad, bella

VOTE: bella

some things i wanna note
- ceph i don't explicitly read as town, but i know he's a capable scum player and my vibe is that he would make reads up rather than going "idk bro" for like half the game. also shea told me that he thinks town ceph is def more likely to openly say he's confused, but he's never played with scum-ceph so i'd like a vibe check from the rest of y'all on this
- gimli is like, vibes; mostly seeing him slaughter the town in HK mafia made him a very capable scumplayer in my eyes, and he feels like he's tapping in the dark here still, so i'm willing to townlean him for now. i DO need to check how his early town game looks, but also he's high in the draft and i don't want lld to yell at me so maybe later
- mith i was told was a Good Player so maybe i shouldn't put a lot of stock into this, but keeping up with scumreading lld on early d1 is A Choice
- ausuka was really mean and yelled at me about townleaning imaginality bc their 694 looked way too nitpicky, and i value her opinion so they go null
- rad is like meh his readslist is meh but i don't know i don't have a high confidence level in this read

as for bella
- this is not really a read of bella but moreso a vibecheck on klick, but. i think klick's contributions to this game is what i'd expect from him if their slot was red. yes, i know klick hates playing scum, but it's not like he has to keep up the presence here or actually post or whatever. anyway.

klick is chronically unable to read me. like absolutely fucking clowning on my alignment every time he tried. it's so bad that, in cyrus' white flag, i joked how he's scum because he's finally reading me correctly. (he was scum.) so i think i would definitely expect (1) town klick to scumread me here, (2) scum!klick to know that i would be expecting him to scumread me here.

here's the thing tho. his scumread feels utterly bad. like, "oh it's similar to his scumplay in WF. no i will not elaborate" feels like he *knows* he has to make up a scumread on me but isn't actually sure how. and i think town!klick is aware of how he is unable to read me, so again that he would at least mention that to bella and it'd get mentioned here

[Menalque]

I’m about to go make dinner dats but koba wants me to tell you to stop omgussing lol

They also sent an amusing reaction face that I can’t do justice to with words but which I’m sure you’ll appreciate when u read the team chat postgame

[Datisi]

ok but have they considered that klick is scum

[Datisi]

ah shit i see they're townreading bella. yeah i know when the battle is lost i'm not getting into that argument

[Menalque]

but whatever you do, do not let them know our plan of attracting a tracker onto us, then both shooting and protecting the same person, then claiming that on d2; i think it's a really smart play

Wait I thought the plan was for you to shoot them while I get tracked and then claim a neighbourise on you so that everyone thinks we’re not aligned bc why would u ever neighbourise your buddy??

[Menalque]

ok but have they considered that klick is scum

We both think klick is town for how much he’s engaging with the game lol

[Datisi]

but whatever you do, do not let them know our plan of attracting a tracker onto us, then both shooting and protecting the same person, then claiming that on d2; i think it's a really smart play

Wait I thought the plan was for you to shoot them while I get tracked and then claim a neighbourise on you so that everyone thinks we’re not aligned bc why would u ever neighbourise your buddy??

i told you that's not gonna work, i've done the same scumplay in 2195 where i had my own buddy neighbourize me on n1 and won the game off that; we need to kill whoever's on dunn's team on n1 to be able to do that

[Datisi]

ok but have they considered that klick is scum

We both think klick is town for how much he’s engaging with the game lol

k

[Menalque]

but whatever you do, do not let them know our plan of attracting a tracker onto us, then both shooting and protecting the same person, then claiming that on d2; i think it's a really smart play

Wait I thought the plan was for you to shoot them while I get tracked and then claim a neighbourise on you so that everyone thinks we’re not aligned bc why would u ever neighbourise your buddy??

i told you that's not gonna work, i've done the same scumplay in 2195 where i had my own buddy neighbourize me on n1 and won the game off that; we need to kill whoever's on dunn's team on n1 to be able to do that

Well then we just kill then and so long as nobody else cottons on to this being the plan then we should be golden to coast through to the win right?

Oh for the heady days of micro 892