ClockworkRuse wrote:
So, you think because I'm not going to focus on someone that more than two or three people are focusing on is scummy? The rhectoric of 'false' excuse is also unnecessary, it's not even an excuse.
Would you rather I tunnel in on someone who already has two or three players firing questions away?
I'm more interested in why someone is defending him right now than his defense, what reason would ort have defending Ramus? Ramus is perfectly capable of responding to the questions and suspicions that are being thrown at him right now, so one would hope at least.
Ortolan, the point is that the town was applying pressure to him, and his reactions are important. You defending him detracts from his reactions, in my opinion, as you give him a safeguard.
Are you telling me that it's okay to self-vote because it's a fashion now?
@TheAdmiral, Why are you defending Ortolan? He is perfectly capable of responding himself.
Here you take Ort's defense of self-voting out of context and make it sound much more scummy than it was (wasn't scummy at all). You make it sound as if Ort is defending all of Ramus's past actions, which he wasn't since Ort only defended the fact that self-voting is a null-tell and subjective as Ramus ALREADY said.
You then call TheAdmiral on defending Ortolan, for I believe, to (I don't know how to explain it) think that you are really against defending others and to strengthen everyone's belief in that you are going after Ort for something you find pretty scummy. But why did you vote Ort here and did not post a FoS, or anything on TheAdmiral?
ClockworkRuse wrote:CarnCarn wrote:ClockworkRuse wrote:So, you think because I'm not going to focus on someone that more than two or three people are focusing on is scummy? The rhectoric of 'false' excuse is also unnecessary, it's not even an excuse.
Your reason for not voting ("there is adequate pressure") doesn't work well in light of Ramus' statement "I'm not feeling the pressure" (said before you voted). That leads me to think you are afraid to be seen taking an aggressive stance on someone this early, especially if that person ends up town. So you had to give some reason for not voting, even though he was acting quite suspiciously, and you figured you could get away with the "but I don't want to put someone at L-3 on page 3" excuse or something.
ClockworkRuse wrote:Would you rather I tunnel in on someone who already has two or three players firing questions away?
What's wrong with that?
So I'm trying to not to appear aggressive... As I'm going after someone else, which is most likely going to grow a little more intense on my part soon.
And I wouldn't mind putting someone at L-3 on page three. I just think it would be better to open the town to more than just one scummy play in a day. Tunneling kills townies, I can show you more that enough references for that.
So you say the reason you didn't want to “tunnel” in on Ramus because you didn't want to appear aggressive. You then give the reason why you didn't want to appear aggressive as “ As I'm going after someone else, which is most likely going to grow a little more intense on my part soon.” I don't understand, please clarify because to me, it sounds like you are going out of your way to appear townie.
Caboose wrote:
FoS's and IGMEOY's suck and I try to keep my use of them to a minimum.
I've played with you, what 5 times? From those games I believe this is a true in case anyone was interested. In two of the games I looked at (1 scum, 1 town) he didn't use any the entire game.
ClockworkRuse wrote:How is your case strengthened by the fact that I felt there was adequate pressure on Ramus? Even if I felt like his pressure was lacking, I wasn't going to go after him over you. As I've already said, in my eyes defending someone before they can give a response is scummy.
Again, misrepresenting Ort. Ort defending self-voting as subjective after Ramus already said the same thing. I'm starting to think you had no case on Ort at all.
ClockworkRuse wrote:Mizzy wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:@ battousai: I'd say something in response to that, but that would be defending...
^Copout.
No, it was a shot at me that I wasn't going to respond to.
And I love how everyone ignores destructor for doing... pretty much the same thing I did? I don't find this scummy, but I'm going to call the wagon on it if they don't attack it consistently. What about this quote;
destructor wrote:I think there is/are scum on the CR wagon. I think Batt may fit the description. I'd vote for Batt right now, but Caboose is on his wagon already.[/b]
qualifies a passing glance when mine is almost exactly the same?
You'll also notice that I'm not going to call destructor on defending anyone, Admiral, because I've already had the chance to speak for myself.
Again, trying to strengthen your case on Ort by letting Destructor's defense of him go since he has already had the chance to defend himself.
Mizzy wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:@ battousai: I'd say something in response to that, but that would be defending...
^Copout.
That was obviously a joke, yet you take it as him being serious. Trying to make something scummy when it's not.
CarnCarn wrote:Mizzy wrote:ThAdmiral wrote:@ battousai: I'd say something in response to that, but that would be defending...
^Copout.
I agree. ThAd, spill the beans; ClockworkRuse probably won't mind as long as you're defending
him
.
Same as Mizzy, but I believe you weren't making it scummy but trying to get info.
Mizzy wrote:destructor wrote:Mizzy, I don't think your vote on Ramus is doing much. Last I remember, it's on him more for being snide than anything scummy he's done. Your first gripe with him, and it was a good one, was that he was being evasive. He's since answered for his early play so far as I can tell. So, why is your vote still on him?
Because a) it's for him being emotional, unhelpful, and scummy, not just for being snide, and b) no, he never fully answered everything and when he did answer at all it was because of pressure to answer, and c) there's no better place for it in my mind at the moment.
A) How was Ramus acting scummy and how is being emotional a reason to vote?
B) So you don't believe in his Fong Gambit
C)Why not just unvote? See below quote
Mizzy wrote:destructor:
How is not voting at all productive? I am reading everything that gets posted very carefully and I have no questions to ask anyone at the moment. So it's either vote Ramus for the time being or no one, and having my vote somewhere is better than no where.
That's your answer to C, yet later in the day (close to deadline) you unvote, but do not place another vote. Isn't this a contradiction of sort?
ClockworkRuse wrote:
Also note, that Ort has to use the cases brought against me by others and has little to nothing to add to my case. In other words, Ort has been sitting around and waiting for a reasonable case to build.
Ort voted you, I believe, for attacking him with a baseless case. I believe everyone else voting for you at the time did not bring that up. Therefore I believe you are degrading Ort's case against you as opportunistic or lazy with OMGUS added in. The OMGUS is, true, the opportunistic/lazy is not. Also, I believe the OMGUS is not scummy in this scenerio since I agree with Ort that the case brought against him by CR is bunk.
ClockworkRuse wrote:ortolan wrote:I'm interested in, if my attack is so unmerited, why you got so worked up over it.
Oh, sorry, next time you make bad arguments I'll just let them stand.
That's not what I said. You have every right to defend yourself. But, if you look back up, you'll see that the diction and the caps lock bits show that you got very worked up over something you consider insignificant.
Well it looked like you basically just made up things he's done and used lies to form a case (the contradiction was taken out of context). If it was me, I would get worked up over it as well.
Mizzy wrote:ortolan wrote:EVEN APART FROM THIS, there is nothing inherently scummy about an OMGUS vote ANYWAY, so this argument has absolutely no substance.
Actually, I don't agree fully with this sentiment; I feel that an OMGUS vote is scummy because it is an easy vote to make that doesn't take thought, doesn't utilize logic or a case, and in general, is anti-town. Anti-town != scum, but it does = scum
my
.
I also don't like that ort does, indeed, seem to have been waiting around for others to make his cases for him.
Also waiting for an answer to #155.
Seems to me, you're the one waiting around lately. Did you come up with Ort waiting around on the word of CR?
Mizzy wrote:
And no, I have been reading, and simply agreed with his point against you. Again, just because you feel like damning me for agreeing with something, doesn't make the thing I agreed with wrong or scummy. It's my opinion, one that happens to be shared. I felt like that before he said it, too.
Ok, so it's not possible that Ort is the same way here? He couldn't have thought what he was accused of instead of just waiting for someone to make a case?
Mizzy wrote:ortolan wrote:How was I to know that a question which seemingly has nothing to do with me was in fact addressed specifically to me?
Because it was addressed to you, and we even reminded you several times after the fact that it was addressed to you.
Wrong. CR addressed this to no one in particular (I assumed to Ramus since it was Ramus's gambit) in a seperate post. When you "reminded" him, all you said was "waiting on an answer for 155." That reminder wasn't addressed to anyone so I thought it was addressed with who I thought it was originally addressed to (Ramus). I find it completely plausible Ort was not dodging questions (which you seem to subtly suggest as dodging questions).
ClockworkRuse wrote:ortolan wrote:Before I go through the posts, the Fong's Gambit question wasn't just to you, Ort. It was to the entire town.
That's not what Mizzy seems to think. You both reiterated it as though it was addressed to me, and as though I was somehow to have already known that. But this is a fairly pointless train of discussion.
Please post your more reasons to vote. I would love to see a case summary from you.
I have already done so, I have little of substance to add at this point.
Then please reiterate your suspicions into one post.
Why don't you do the same, even though you are not voting him anymore?
Ok, my opinions after rereading the entire thread is that I believe Mizzy is scum, ThAdmiral could be scum, and CR might be scum. I feel CR really went at Ort prematurely and tunneled in with bad logic, which is scummy (but I can see town doing it as well, so I am hesitant to say with too much certainty of his alignment). A CR lynch today might lead to some interesting information for D2, but I feel a Mizzy lynch would lead to more since I feel she is scum, thus:
Vote: Mizzy