TM 2023 | Open: PYP S_TM | Endgame

[Alisae]

Is there an M&M conveying overwhelming jealousy that I can post at Mena while I hack up a lung over here?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Ye it made me worried

[Alisae]

Ye it made me worried

How did u not remember it? I feel like that's something you would remember.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because my memory is a fog from pain medication?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Or do you think I'm the kind of player who purposefully makes a provably untrue statement that can be easily refuted because....why again?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Like my memory clearly failed me

[Alisae]

Or do you think I'm the kind of player who purposefully makes a provably untrue statement that can be easily refuted because....why again?

you actually did something similar in election

The reason no one else wants to kill me is because I'm towny

I recently quoted my interactions with meowth which showed a consistent scumread and a vote on them, so you need to drop the claim that I didn't.

I tell you you're wrong when you suspect me because I think there's a decent chance you're town and I usually want to defend myself.

I get why you're doing it if you're town but you do understand you ended the day on UNOwen right?

You get why I view things the way I do.

I ended the day on meowth.

Huh. So you did.

I guess I had Mandela effected myself based on how you had approached Meowth, and how Meowth was literally already dead before you voted him and people were just waiting on me to act.

It doesn't change too much for me because you came on at the very end after he was already dead, once I'd already planted my flag there but, it does change a little.

Gahhh I don't wanna have to re-evaluateeeee that's workkkkkk i just wanna be righttttttttttt

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Okay. And?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

What is this Ali, you trying to find any way to talk your way out of having to follow me onto JJH today?

Like you understand that this whole day the vibes I have been getting from you have been "shit I swt myself up with an unshakable townread on LLD that I can't backtrack my way out of and she's cop checked too so now I need to try ans get super paranoid to make ot look like I can slip back to going against her"

[jjh927]

Oh, I did read that part earlier and I gotta say LLD's memory lapse makes sense lmao

o

i'm really out of it

what did you claim again

oh, then i'm killing Rad today because that claim is uh oh stinky haha pooooo and even if it's real it feeds it to imaginality theoretically which leaves ? for the scum team

i think?

[Alisae]

Okay. And?

What is this Ali, you trying to find any way to talk your way out of having to follow me onto JJH today?

Like you understand that this whole day the vibes I have been getting from you have been "shit I swt myself up with an unshakable townread on LLD that I can't backtrack my way out of and she's cop checked too so now I need to try ans get super paranoid to make ot look like I can slip back to going against her"

It was just something that bugged me that I wanted to ask.
If I wanted to backtrack out of townreading you I would just do it.

[Ythan]

Haven't read anything since mid 168 sick to death game not a priority rn

[Alisae]

I've never been on paid meds before LLD I don't know what that is like. I generally trust what you say but I saw you do this in election and it happened again here so I wanted to ask. I can't help but noticed it seemed fake and wanted to ask about it
I know it's hard for us to trust each other, but can we not w/ this song and dance? Like, if we suspect each other, I would like to be able to be as honest about it as possible w/o the fearmongering. Like, I agreed to vote w/ you. I have been nothing but cooperative and trying to solve. I have been trying to work w/ you and bounce ideas off of you, I asked you questions aimed at helping you feel not as lost considering you're saying you don't know.

We haven't made efforts to find a 3rd partner yet because you're on pain meds and I'm waiting for you to feel up to that.

I get you're struggling and you feel like you're pressured to make the right decision, but how is this fair to me?
The biggest unsaid question mark I have is "Is LLD going to actually want to solve with me or am I just going to do all of this work, and she's just going to be like lol i don't care for your arguments vote jjh with me?"

[jjh927]

Okay i am finally all caught up and now it is zzz time

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I've never been on paid meds before LLD I don't know what that is like. I generally trust what you say but I saw you do this in election and it happened again here so I wanted to ask. I can't help but noticed it seemed fake and wanted to ask about it
I know it's hard for us to trust each other, but can we not w/ this song and dance? Like, if we suspect each other, I would like to be able to be as honest about it as possible w/o the fearmongering. Like, I agreed to vote w/ you. I have been nothing but cooperative and trying to solve. I have been trying to work w/ you and bounce ideas off of you, I asked you questions aimed at helping you feel not as lost considering you're saying you don't know.

We haven't made efforts to find a 3rd partner yet because you're on pain meds and I'm waiting for you to feel up to that.

I get you're struggling and you feel like you're pressured to make the right decision, but how is this fair to me?
The biggest unsaid question mark I have is "Is LLD going to actually want to solve with me or am I just going to do all of this work, and she's just going to be like lol i don't care for your arguments vote jjh with me?"

imagine if the dissociative fog on my brain was magnified so much that trying to think was already overloading on too much thought.

[mith]

On the back end of the game (the present), I am thinking that an Ythan / LLD / Mith scumteam would make a lot of sense in terms of gamestate. That would be a scumteam that managed to draft 2 vigs and the cop, which is a team that had a gameplan from the very start- line up 2 mislims, fake a guilty, end the game. Makes sense why LLD has been pushing the narrative that cop=town pick. Scum!Ythan has little reason to draft bulletproof when her buddies are draftings vigs, and gets to be verifiably ascetic.

Let’s say you’re town. Let’s say you’re the lim. I’m town. I’m the last chance to save the game. Who do I shoot? Who are the scum?

[jjh927]

On the back end of the game (the present), I am thinking that an Ythan / LLD / Mith scumteam would make a lot of sense in terms of gamestate. That would be a scumteam that managed to draft 2 vigs and the cop, which is a team that had a gameplan from the very start- line up 2 mislims, fake a guilty, end the game. Makes sense why LLD has been pushing the narrative that cop=town pick. Scum!Ythan has little reason to draft bulletproof when her buddies are draftings vigs, and gets to be verifiably ascetic.

Let’s say you’re town. Let’s say you’re the lim. I’m town. I’m the last chance to save the game. Who do I shoot? Who are the scum?

As you're already aware, in that scenario, you can't shoot Ythan if Datisi is scum, as there's the possibility of Ythan/Datisi/third scum. If you are in fact town, you are being driven towards shooting Datisi after I flip town from the fake guilty. I think that's wrong and driven actively by LLD and the gamestate we are in right now. I would maybe just shoot Ythan, but would strongly consider shooting LLD as I do have to consider Datisi!scum if you are town which means it may not be safe.

I'm not confident of who the third scum would be in a town!mith world. My read on LLD is mainly informed by how we're sitting in a kind of doomed looking gamestate right now where LLD seems to have had the reins since day 1. It started to look this way to me about when LLD causes public opinion to shift on Rad in day 1. But I just really don't think we wind up here if LLD is town.

I think Alisae is pocketed (or at least has been), and therefore not scum. LLD pushing for vig on Datisi doesn't make much sense if they're partnered, even though it makes sense with Ythan mechanically. Bella is just town to me and my highest townread by play. Last scum would be Menalque if you're town then? I don't think I really see it though.

Ythan/LLD/Datisi is a scumteam that would want you to kill Ythan (and fail), while Ythan/LLD/Menalque would want you to kill Datisi.

I don't think I can picture any other scumteam. So I think the safest shot would be LLD.

[Alisae]

Is this all you have for us?

[jjh927]

Talk to me about what you remember of your progression on Rad in day 1, Ali

[jjh927]

We can make this an interactive show and tell

[Alisae]

i didn't really have a read on him, and then he started trolling me so i townread him for it, and then I found another reason to townread him during the marashu talks, and then I hammered him at deadline

[jjh927]

Okay, so prior to around 700ish I think it's fair to say that Rad actually had quite a few people townreading him. I think Mith is maybe where things take off in suggesting a Staeg/Rad scumteam. You go a bit further and suggest a Staeg/Rad/LLD scumteam. LLD responds primarily with this;

Cause I'll tell you what

you want to pursue this theory, I'll "bus" Rad right here right now I could not give less of a fuck.

I still believe it's very likely there is a scum in the 6s given how things have played out, but if it means people's theories about me get cornered down and I can't have these crack pot "LLD is gambiting" theories going on, then let's just go for it.

If Rad's town, you listen to me tomorrow and we murder someone who actually might flip scum.

If Rad's scum tomorrow, I'll embrace sweet death for the sake of paranoia remvoval on the understanding my reads be listened to once I die.

This brings you in line. You are no longer pursuing a team with LLD in it after this exercise which LLD then wraps up.

the whole purpose of the exercise was to see if you were really that locked in on that team you were presenting and where your head was at, to read you in a position that makes it hard for you to do anything else.

and as with all situations like that, I need to be willing to actually do the things I say or they have no meaning.

If you'd be like "alirght bet" I'd have voted Rad.

If you'd voted me, it would have shone a light on it overall.

If you'd kept on staeg it would have been flying in the face of generally accepted strategy

Instead you backed down and chose to try and re-evaluate, which I townread actually because I think scum you uses my unpopularity in this game to fly in the face of me and say how frustrated you are by my shenanigans.

I think it's from this point that you're basically in LLD's pocket.






Let's go a bit later. Rad starts to scumread LLD. He doesn't have good reasons for it except paranoia, but basically LLD decides that needs to go. She is a dominant force in the game at this point.

@rad, what is your current thought on her alignment?

Lean scum on LLD currently. Yes I wanted to locktown her for her emotional opening (scum can be emotional but I was reading town emotions) but I've been told by my team that she's a strong scum player, I read over Election and got some similar vibes, and the never top 4 but fuck #5 has me questioning her stance. Also the refusal to switch off Mara to progress the game felt scummy (even if Mara ends up scum, there are multiple scum here and Mara wasn't interacting with the game at all for 2+ days so why are we wasting our time on that slot at this stage of the game?)

The dissonance between Rad's "anti-town" attacks on me yesterday and this today is a gap wider than the grand canyon.

Maybe I'm paranoid, and I'm not in the right spot to see this if it's true, but my feeling is that Rad thought I would be widely townread coming in for how emotional I was, then realized I was on the table for today and has spent approximately the rest of this day trying to downgrade his read on me gradually to be able to vote me, eventually.

He's also got a scumread on Marashu which makes all of this look really fake.

Like... he's saying here that his team said I'm a strong scum player but if that's true why did he interrogate me about my prior games and experience so heavily? If he has a team who knows enough about me to say things like this, surely they would be able to say enough?

And the "strong scum player" thing doesn't resonate at ALL with the anti-town arguments yesterday. How can you in the same breath be afraid of my skill and then also wonder if I'm anti-town town?

The "progression" of Rad's read from more or less wanting to lock town me to this here and now reads a lot like someone who is trying to eventually get to a vote when the day comes down to it. Like, as if the plan is to have him "compromise" onto me with enough reasons to do so.

And here's another little insight I'm gleaning.

I think Marashu might be TMI'd town from this. The insistence with which Rad talks about how it's a bad elimination, it's not "Town" it's not "Scum" it's always that argument right?

there's just not enough to town read Marashu, you just can't come out and go "I think that slot is town" wihtout people looking you up and down weirdly.

So to take the stance of "this is wrong" is the same as trying to position around that wagon.

It is around 1400ish that Rad trolls you. No particular need for quotes here.


Beyond that we start to see posts like this from LLD

cause personally I'm torn.

I only want to kill between Imaginality and Rad today, Rad's my preferred target but switching to rad means running ANOTHER player up and forcing a claim which isn't overall good for us.

So if Jingle's like, "yes I'll risk my life on Imaginality scum" I'll just vote Imaginality.

If there's hesitance, I want to kill Rad.

And it's weird to me that your team seems to have scumreads on Rad, Imaginality and Me, which is a team that never works and there's probably only ever 1 scum in that list at most?

Here's a notable quote from you from around then.

LLD I really don't wanna kill Rad.
Rad spent pages fucking w/ me (wolves don't do that) and we had townie moments when marashu showed up and was posting and I fail to see how this is gameplay that is coming from a wolf. like he just seems so puuuuuuuuuuure
Imaginality is a TR I strongly believe in and I get Ircher vibes here from cakez game

The main point I am making here is that LLD has basically had full control of the gamestate, particularly the eliminations, and I don't feel that she's been assigned any of the responsibility for these decisions resulting in mislims. I don't think the memory lapse earlier was necessarily deliberate but it was indicative of LLD trying to be perceived as distant from where the actual decisions have been made in this game, when reality is she's front and centre.

This is precisely what I want to avoid, so we're making a choice here.

I'm not running a bunch of slots up until they claim. It only helps town. We have one claim.

I'm fine with at MOST one more claim, as long as we kill one of the two claims.

So if people are going to just back off Staeg or back off Rad after and do another quick wagon at end of day, I'm putting my foot down.

I will only vote Rad if people are saying "okay it's Rad or imaginality today"

If we're not doing Rad at all, I don't want Rad to claim

That last post there is similar to the whole "exercise" with Ali. LLD's gameplay here has all been about control of the gamestate. It is why we are in this situation.

[Alisae]

Why is Ythan picking a fight w/ LLD for 10 pages straight. That's so unnecessary, like, she would probably actively be fuming.
Why are those players shooting Staeg and Marashu?

[jjh927]

I think she WAS actively fuming, yes. That is why it blew up to 10 pages.

Staeg kill actually makes less sense than the Marashu kill to me. If scum were willing to nightkill a potential mislim target in order to cop hunt I don't get why they would give up and shoot Marashu unless it was basically because neither kill mattered all that much and the first one got that "scum are cop hunting" narrative out while the second one was an actual attempt at finding a town PR lower in the bracket because scum took all the big powers

[mith]

We're about 4 days from deadline at this point. In the next day or so I would like to hear from everyone regarding:

1. Who is the lim today? (Alisae, I would like you to answer this independent of your "doublevoter" status with LLD)
2. Who do I shoot tonight? (Contingent on the various flip possibilities)