TM 2023 | Mini Normal | Endgame

[PenguinPower]

Votecount 4.13

DeasVail (3):

Ausuka, Shirou, Freedom

Freedom (2):

xofelf, mastina

xofelf (1):

DrippingGoofball

Not Voting (1): DeasVail

With 7 alive it takes 4 to eliminate.

Day 4 deadline is in (expired on 2023-05-18 09:20:33)

Mod Notes

Have fun!

[mastina]

It is generally frowned upon in reviews to make games be breakable by setup spec. Part of making a game be breakable by setup spec is giving the town all stereotypically town roles and the scum all stereotypically scum roles. So standard practice in NRGs is to...not do that. To have the scum roles be plausible as not stereotypically scum roles, and to have the town roles be plausible as scum roles and not all stereotypically town roles.

Think of it this way.

If we massclaimed on D1, would the game be breakable?

If you argue I'm a scum rolecop, the answer is yes, incredibly.
We'd get an IC on D1 in the form of the VT.
We'd get a loud rolecop who can't hide her being a rolecop. (I can't lie and say I'm a VT if we massclaim on D1 as a LOUD rolecop, now, can I?)
We'd get a scum roleblocker quickly exposed. (The presence of a roleblocker would be quickly outted by roles not getting results when they should.)
We'd have a town tracker-type role, town jailkeeper-type role (when jk+tracker is a common town combo), a town voyeur (stereotypical town role to fill the gaps), and a town doctor with usually-town modifiers. All with modifiers that suggest they're town. With two roles also suggested as town (fruit vendor).

Loud Rolecop + roleblocker vs. that, with a massclaim on D1? Scum can't realistically win there.

Which is proof of why I'm town.

Pagetopping this.

[Shirou]

I think scum!Ausuka is the funniest potential outcome of this game and I think she/Koba deserves the win if it's the case

[mastina]

So why are you saying "mastina is a rolecop, rolecop is a scum role" ignoring the fucking modifier on the role which makes it impossible to realistically be a scum role?

FIREBRINGER WAS SCUM IN THE LAST GAME AND HE WAS LOUD AS WELL

And what was Firebringer's Loud role?
Was it Loud Rolecop?

In a Normal Game?

A role being Loud doesn't mean it can't be scum,

in of itself

.
It's the

combination

which is important.

And Loud Rolecop is never a scum role.

[Shirou]

I hate indecisiveness and the amount of indecisiveness there is in mafia games drives me absolutely nuts. I should have gone to sleep hours ago...sigh.

I really should retire after this

[Shirou]

And Loud Rolecop is never a scum role.

[mastina]

Like, WHY do you think Xof is even possible then? They are also loud if I'm not misremembering
so is Xof also confirmed town or something?

It's not the modifier.
It's the combo.

Loud Role-Watcher is a plausible scum role because voyeur-type roles aren't inherently a stereotypical common scum role. Making a role that isn't seen as a common scum role be Loud doesn't affect the alignment.
Making a role that IS seen as a common role be Loud DOES--

especially

in tandem with the aforementioned Loud Role-Watcher.

Unless the scumteam is exactly xofelf-mastina, then I couldn't lie about my role at all. I couldn't hide a visit due to being Loud. I couldn't lie about my role because if xofelf targeted my target, then my fakeclaim wouldn't display and my real role would.

Ergo, a scum Loud Rolecop would be FORCED to tell the truth--when rolecop is, by your own statement, a common scum role.

You think that passes review?

It sure as fuck wouldn't fly in my review!

I'd catch the interaction

instantly

and point out how it would basically guarantee the scum loud rolecop got eliminated, unless the scum lucked out in nullifying the role-watcher early.

A game requiring a fringe outcome to not be ludicrously townsided,
Is ludicrously townsided.

[mastina]

Weren't you the one telling how we should just rush for Koba lim when we had just a very short day before?

No???

I'm pretty fucking sure if anything I said the opposite?

[mastina]

We can discuss the merits of whether to claim today or not if we want, and hunt for partners if we want, but we're never not voting Koba here, so...

Like, this is pretty much saying the exact opposite of "rush the day".

[Shirou]

We can discuss the merits of whether to claim today or not if we want, and hunt for partners if we want, but we're never not voting Koba here, so...

Like, this is pretty much saying the exact opposite of "rush the day".

it wasn't a "rush the day" but it wasn't a "we need to discuss reaalllyyyy hard everything rather than voting scum ok?"

You're doing the same thing you accused me of before:

Spamming walls so that people buy your narrative

You keep re:quoting gigantic posts and not even I did that.

[Shirou]

I couldn't lie about my role because if xofelf targeted my target, then my fakeclaim wouldn't display and my real role would.

Ergo, a scum Loud Rolecop would be FORCED to tell the truth--when rolecop is, by your own statement, a common scum role.

No, a rolecop could easily fakeclaim as long as it gets rid off the watcher, and the rolecop doesn't even NEED to fakeclaim.

You claimed rolecop since D2 and only in D4 we've began to suspect you for it.

It's NOT a claim that would instantly make people vote for you. We aren't suspecting you only for being a rolecop.

[Shirou]

If the rolecop is scum, who else but the role watcher could get any implicating result for town anyway?

If the rolecop is scum they only need to worry about a single town PR. That's completely balanced and like I said the rolecop doesn't even need to fakeclaim because we didn't suspect your claim at first at all just for being a typically scum role.

[Shirou]

If balanced in your mind is "no town investigative PR can get any sort of soft guilty on scum", that's disingenuous. I doubt you seriously believe that.

and AGAIN

You weren't very suspected for it during 2 days while being a claimed rolecop.

You keep trying to twist simple stuff like this and it's really scummy.

[Shirou]

You're "winning" the debate by spouting so many twists like the above that I can't be arsed to reply to every one of them

It would make the game EVEN more unreadable and I think you KNOW that

You're throwing everything on the wall and hoping it sticks, and the unique thing that actually somewhat sticks comes from me anyway and you just copypasted it

[mastina]

You're doing the same thing you accused me of before

Yeah, I am spamming posts rn.

I realize why that looks hypocritical, so I'm not gonna say it's not, but I can explain it regardless.

In part, my spam is to counter yours--I'm not letting your voice drown out mine when I make some really fucking good points that I don't want people to gloss over.

In part, it is the proximity to deadline--when you were spamming we still had days left. Right now we have ten hours before deadline. I don't have the luxury of

not

, because every moment counts.

In part, it is because despite knowing it is a proscum tactic objectively, I am prone to getting drawn into these fights.

You and I have the same default style of posting, Shirou. I literally tunnel slots deliberately early in the game the same way you did to Ausuka. So when I see someone using the tactic I am intimately familiar with, it brings out my bad habits of following it and doing it myself.

I'm a strong proponent of "do as I say, not as I do"--and being drawn into a fight where things are heated despite knowing why that is bad for town is something I have a very fucking long history of doing.

I stand by my assessment.
It

was

proscum by you.
I still believe you had an agenda when doing it.

But I recognize the hypocrisy which is me doing it as well. I can explain it, but it is not something I can or should ever justify.

[Shirou]

I've also noted that you say you've no read on DeasVail

However, you straight up SKIPPED MY POST about DV/Koba interactions

You are NOT trying to sort DeasVail. That's BS.

[Shirou]

In part, my spam is to counter yours--I'm not letting your voice drown out mine when I make some really fucking good points that I don't want people to gloss over.

Summarize in at maximum three lines without quoting a "good point" of yours that isn't the one you got from me. I'm serious Mastina, asking in total good-faith.

Don't say it's "loud scum rolecop is impossible" (which isn't, you can even argue that it's like, a bit unlikely although I completely disagree, but in no way it's strongly town indicative)

or "Koba scumslipped" when both me and Ausuka already explained what very likely was the reason behind that post.

[mastina]

No, a rolecop could easily fakeclaim as long as it gets rid off the watcher, and the rolecop doesn't even NEED to fakeclaim.

"as long as it gets rid of the watcher" is balancing off of a fringe result, Shirou.

Again.

A setup requiring a fringe result to not be ludicrously townsided,
Is ludicruously townsided, because unless the fringe result comes true...then the non-fringe result, the default, applies.

And the default of a loud rolecop for scum especially with a role watcher on town is...

...It doesn't work for the rolecop. At all. The rolecop can't lie outside of a fringe result.
The game CANNOT be balanced on a fringe result.

It's basically forbidden in the NRG to balance off of fringe results.

So requiring that the loud rolecop rely on a fringe result...

...Means that the game cannot be balanced.

You claimed rolecop since D2 and only in D4 we've began to suspect you for it.
It's NOT a claim that would instantly make people vote for you. We aren't suspecting you only for being a rolecop.

Funny, because it sure looks that way!

Off of my PLAY I was townread.

not off of my claim.

The basis of your argument is off of ROLE.
Not off of play.

What's your play-based argument for me being scum?

That I think you're scum with Freedom?
Is that it?

'Cause you've sure been going off about roles a lot today.

[DrippingGoofball]

It is weird that DV isn't voting.

[xofelf]

I'm not letting your voice drown out mine when I make some really fucking good points that I don't want people to gloss over.

Okay but mastina, the tone in which all of your posts where you're doing this, really doesn't make anybody wanna read them because they're overly aggressive and needlessly combative. Like, I get you're reading Shirou's posts as trying to drown you out, but he's not really doing that? not from my perspective. Like, when you have your posts that are just what you think and your reasonings, that aren't some brand of "lemme tell you why you're fucking wrong, and scum for it" or "you're putting my posts in the wrong context", I *like* those posts. Those are readable posts that I actually want to engage with. Everything else is just becoming noise, and we are way too far into this day for more noise. Like, just ignore Shirou for a bit and give us what your solves are for people. I know you've made posts that have those already, but it sounded like you had some specifics you wanted to do before day end. If you already made those posts, I'm sorry but I missed them because so many of your posts tonight have been way too fighty.

[xofelf]

It is weird that DV isn't voting.

I agree. But I also haven't seen him online in a bit, so I'm hoping he'll come back and change that.

[mastina]

If the rolecop is scum they only need to worry about a single town PR.

A single town PR the scum have no way of knowing is in the game,
No way of having identified,
No way of having neutralized,
And which--by virtue of the loud rolecop being LOUD--can easily coordinate to target the same player the loud rolecop does?

Come now, you're trying to justify your bad take and refusing to admit you're just wrong.

It's factual that a loud rolecop wouldn't be able to lie without getting caught outside of fringe cases.

The scum don't know the role watcher exists.
The scum don't know who has the role of role watcher.
The scum have no way to anticipate the role watcher.
The scum have no way of stopping the role watcher from watching the target the loud rolecop targets.
The loud rolecop by virtue of being loud is likely to have a publicly claimed target (especially given neighborhoods), regardless of their claimed role, because as a loud role they need to justify having targeted who they did.
The loud rolecop by virtue of needing to announce their targets, is extra vulnerable to the role watcher.

The only way the scum don't have to deal with the role watcher is if the role watcher is nullified before the loud rolecop fakeclaims--roleblocking them on the night they'd get a guilty, mislimming them, or successfully killing them despite a doctor in the game being able to foil that kill, and a jailkeeper in the game who can also foil that kill in two different ways.
Yes the modifiers to those roles mean that the town couldn't consistently protect the role watcher--but the point isn't that the town would be able to; the point is that it is extra difficult for the scum to get that fringe case of nullifying the role watcher.

In other words, the fringe case is extra fringe, given the other roles in the game.
Making lying as a loud rolecop even harder.
And being a loud rolecop does attract suspicion--you're literally arguing that I'm scum due to being a stereotypical scum role. If you are town, that would be proof that town players can and would argue a rolecop to be a stereotypical scum role.

[Shirou]

"as long as it gets rid of the watcher" is balancing off of a fringe result, Shirou.

Mastina this is the equivalent of telling that every scum team needs to have a godfather to balance a cop, because otherwise if they don't kill the cop the cop will clear/guilty everyone!

It's literally in the same veins of that.

[Shirou]

To Mastina, scum can have a roleblocker, but can't have a town PR that could guilty them. Town can't have one single dangerous PR that could screw the scum so that the scum team would need to hunt for them.

I'm starting to get rid off all my doubts about Mastina being scum.

[Shirou]

There's no way that Mastina, a reviewer, really thinks that roaming roleblocker + loud rolecop can't counter a single roaming role watcher

That's NOT a real or valid opinion to hold.